Marshes

[leftylucas]

I played the Marshes this week and hit my drive left (as was suggested to me but I cut it too much) on the second hole 615 yd par 5 over a knoll and saw it bounce very high (cart path) and disappear behind the small hill. I was going to hit a provisional but the member I was playing with told me I would be fine and that it was wide open in front of the 4th green plus there was group right behind us. We proceeded to my ball since he hit his into the water on the right. We get to where my ball disappeared and see a hazard right there behind the hill. We look for my ball but cannot find it. I was pretty upset about the appearance of the hazard and he laughed saying, Oh ya, there is a hazard here" I tell him that I think I have to go back and hit again, he gets upset and tells me its a lost ball and that I incur a 2 stroke penalty and have to hit from there since we cannot say it went into the hazard since we did not see it go in. He tells me I dont know the rules very well and that maybe I should have hit a provisional. I told him I would have had I known there was a hazard there and explained he told me it was "wide open" He says, look, its a lost ball then, play it from here, your lying 3. Instead, I leave him there to go back to the tee, make the group wait about 1 minute and he walks to his ball and hits another into the water and is really "pissed". My second drive is fine and I end up with an 8, 3 off the tee. He proceeds to hit 2 more into the water during his approaches and loses the hole. He then tells me on the next tee that I lost the hole because I played a 2nd ball. I did not want to make a big thing of it so I said lets just see how the rest of the game goes and see if this hole will even make a difference. He would hear nothing of it so I conceded the hole jokingly "under protest" since he seemed really serious.

Man, I am long winded! Did I break any rules? Did he by telling me to hit form there and telling me it was wide open? I am pretty sure that I played it right. Needless to say I did not listen to another "suggestion" from him all day and noticed many of them were not great advice. I still won the match narrowly but he basically called me cheater after the game about the 2nd hole fiasco. I told him he should read the rules and he would see that I did nothing wrong but inside I really was not that sure. It will be while before I entertain his company again, too bad, nice course.

[dH]

Wow. I'm no rules junky but if your having a friendly match and you wanted to hit one but he insisted you didn't then he should honor that. I know lots of guys like that they think they are pros but aren't make mistakes then do anything in there power to take you down. SOme rules guy may come and say "TECHNICALLY" you didn't hit it originally but since he was pursuading you I"d say you have a clean concscience. To bad thougH!

[jvincent]

You were correct in going back to the tee.

Since there was no conclusive evidence that your ball was in the hazard, it is lost. At that point your only option is to re-tee since you didn't play a provisional.

As to whether the other guy broke any rules, I don't think so because he didn't give you any advice. He gave you incorrect rules information but that doesn't constitute advice.

I wouldn't play with him again if I were you either.

[dreaded_snowman]

This seems like a straight forward case - lost ball, stroke and distance played. The fact that it was probably in the hazard doesn't factor in once your opponent says you can't prove it's in the hazard.

So you did the right thing...

Snowman

[LobWedge]

Shame on your opponent for bullying you into giving up the hole. At least you won the "war".

Good on you for going with your instinct and heading back to the tee.

The next time that happens, take him with you to look for the ball up behind the mounds, and beat him to death with your least favourite club.

[leftylucas]

I went back to the tee because I was pretty sure I remembered reading that on this forum plus I always hit and state I am hitting a provisional if there is ever any doubt just for myself more than for others. I was on the friendly game mode but he was definitely on a different route. I think if he would have won the hole outright it would never have been an issue. Afterward he kept going on that my "breach" upset him for the whole game. I simply told him that I thought I was right and that he should try to play his own game and not worry about mine. I also explained that lying 3 from 200 yds from the tee as he suggested was probably more advantagous than lying 3 on the tee box. he kind of shut up after that.

Shame on your opponent for bullying you into giving up the hole. At least you won the "war".

Good on you for going with your instinct and heading back to the tee.

The next time that happens, take him with you to look for the ball up behind the mounds, and beat him to death with your least favourite club.

[jvincent]

I also explained that lying 3 from 200 yds from the tee as he suggested was probably more advantagous than lying 3 on the tee box.

Minor correction. You would have been hitting 3 from the tee box.

[leftylucas]

Minor correction. You would have been hitting 3 from the tee box.

tru dat. No advantage anyways, I was still lying 4 at 200yds from the tee after my re-hit. BTW would he have been right to tell me that I incur a 2 shot penalty for a lost ball if I do not go back and re-hit? It was still my option, right?

[jvincent]

BTW would he have been right to tell me that I incur a 2 shot penalty for a lost ball if I do not go back and re-hit?

No. The only option for a lost ball is to play again from where the original stroke was taken. A provisional is really just a way of playing your new shot in advance to save time.

Now since you were playing a match, you could have just conceeded the hole at that point but if you aren't doing that you need to re-tee.

[leftylucas]

Thanks JV, I am going to read the rule book this winter and save myself some aggravation. Furthermore I will play matches with people who want to enjoy themselves and still play. My playing partner is the excitable type and I am sure putting 3 in the water made it difficult for him to be objective. I trust that next time we see each other I will make it a point to explain the rule and let him see the error of his ways.

[dH]

I went back to the tee because I was pretty sure I remembered reading that on this forum plus I always hit and state I am hitting a provisional if there is ever any doubt just for myself more than for others. I was on the friendly game mode but he was definitely on a different route. I think if he would have won the hole outright it would never have been an issue. Afterward he kept going on that my "breach" upset him for the whole game. I simply told him that I thought I was right and that he should try to play his own game and not worry about mine. I also explained that lying 3 from 200 yds from the tee as he suggested was probably more advantagous than lying 3 on the tee box. he kind of shut up after that.

WOW what nerve.... He is the one complaing that you upset him? LOL This world is full of all kinds. I'd never play with him again in my life.

Also I bet you won the 1st hole thats why he so overly competitvely wanted to win this one.

[leftylucas]

WOW what nerve.... He is the one complaing that you upset him? LOL This world is full of all kinds. I'd never play with him again in my life.

Also I bet you won the 1st hole thats why he so overly competitvely wanted to win this one.

I won the first hole, drove into the sand, hit a lucky/great 4i to the green and a 2 putt for par, he was short on his approach and missed a 7ft putt for par.


Yeah, he is a hot head, anything goes wrong, its always something else, never him. Like I said, if he was winning outright he would never have said anything. I stay calm and it gets him even more pumped. I play him only a couple of times a year now, if it was not free I would not play him at all.

[dH]

I won the first hole, drove into the sand, hit a lucky/great 4i to the green and a 2 putt for par, he was short on his approach and missed a 7ft putt for par.


Yeah, he is a hot head, anything goes wrong, its always something else, never him. Like I said, if he was winning outright he would never have said anything. I stay calm and it gets him even more pumped. I play him only a couple of times a year now, if it was not free I would not play him at all.

Makes perfect sense!

[leftylucas]

It would be fun to write down all the things he blames during one round, last time it was the cart girl drove toward us while he was waggling to hit a drive, he ended up shanking it. Another time it was noise from another tee box, another time it was his grips needed replacing etc.......................

[Shivas Irons]

The fact that it was probably in the hazard doesn't factor in once your opponent says you can't prove it's in the hazard.

Isn't there something in the rules that says if you can reasonably determine your ball has gone into a hazard you can take a drop instead of declaring the ball lost? I mean, where else could the ball have been if it's wide open?
After reading your recount of your game, even though it's free, I don't think I'd bother with playing with this meathead again.

[LobWedge]

Thanks JV, I am going to read the rule book this winter and save myself some aggravation. Furthermore I will play matches with people who want to enjoy themselves and still play. My playing partner is the excitable type and I am sure putting 3 in the water made it difficult for him to be objective. I trust that next time we see each other I will make it a point to explain the rule and let him see the error of his ways.

If you go to the USGA rules section (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/rules.html), there are links for 'Rules and Decisions Videos' and 'Rules of Golf Animations' that are excellent for helping you visualize what's in the book.

[leftylucas]

Thanks, I will do that, sounds less boring than reading!!

[PEI Golfing]

Having played about 60 Rounds at the Marshes this year, I have, and many of my fellow Members and Marshes Men's League Members have been in that situation many times. Myself and other Members will not hit a provisional when it goes over the mound. Reason being if it is not visible on fairway #4 then it is obviously in the water hazard on fairway #4. Thus, you can drop lying 3.
This is only common sense!!! Without a rules official standing on top of the mound that separates the fairways this is considered by the members as fair and playing by the rules. Lets have some common sense out there as the rounds are long enough without having to hit unecessary provisionals.......!!!

[leftylucas]

The point being that this member obviously knew that and deliberately let me omit the provisional knowing what was going on. Secondly, we did not hold anyone up as we findshed the 3 rd hole the next group was not even in sight on the tee box yet. Common sense yes but rules are rules. I made sure to hurry the next couple of shots so as to make up the time, that was common sense too.

[PEI Golfing]

Yes, the member certainly should have told you when he saw your ball go over the mound that there is a water hazard on fairway #4. If he is a full unlimited member I have more than likely played a round with him. Can not think of who it may be

[GarthM]

Myself and other Members will not hit a provisional when it goes over the mound. Reason being if it is not visible on fairway #4 then it is obviously in the water hazard on fairway #4.

No it is not. You did not see it go in the hazard, therefore it may not be in the hazard.

Thus, you can drop lying 3.
This is only common sense!!! Lets have some common sense out there as the rounds are long enough without having to hit unecessary provisionals.......!!!

You can't drop lying 3, nor it is common sense. If it takes 30 seconds to hit a provisional, you took took too long.

[Gary Hill]

I played the Marshes this week and hit my drive left (as was suggested to me but I cut it too much)

You should not have hit your tee shot. You should have claimed the hole from your opponent for a breach of Rule 8 (Advice) the second that he "suggested" that you hit it down the the left side and walked straight to the 3rd hole teeing ground.

[Hank Hill]

You should not have hit your tee shot. You should have claimed the hole from your opponent for a breach of Rule 8 (Advice) the second that he "suggested" that you hit it down the the left side and walked straight to the 3rd hole teeing ground.

Nice one! I was thinking the exact same thing.

[leftylucas]

That's it, I am going to be aware of all the rules and then at least I can play with a clear conscience, not get bullied.

[clankoffdatee]

Lefty:
That playing partners gotta go.

I commend you on playing by the book but I find it pretty tough to do it on public courses especially on busy days like today.

You should not have hit your tee shot. You should have claimed the hole from your opponent for a breach of Rule 8 (Advice) the second that he "suggested" that you hit it down the the left side and walked straight to the 3rd hole teeing ground.

How do you remember all that?

[Gary Hill]

How do you remember all that?

I have a Rule book.