Unplayable

[Kiwi]

Just to be clear, first, I play for fun, but do keep score to track my progress. I have had this happen recently, more than once, so I should get the "facts". I hit from the tee and the ball slices/hooks. I think that I can find it so do not hit a provisional. From what I have read, rules and previous threads, it seems I have one of three remedies when I find my ball deep, more than two club lengths, in the woods. First, is the two club lengths, which is a non-starter as I am in deep; second is the "between the spot and the hole" part, which again is undo-able due to the layout (I'd be in the next fairway); and finally the "hit again". I realize the rules are more for competative golf but there does not seem to be a practical solution "by the rules" for this. Returning to the tee would not impress either my foursome or those following. I guess that a provisional, in all cases where you do not see your ball land, would be the best approach.

Your thoughts Rules Guy?

Thanks, Kiwi

[Gary Hill]

I play for fun

Drop a ball on the fairway where you were looking for your ball and pay no attention to your score for that particular hole.

I realize the rules are more for competative golf

The Rules are not solely for competative golf. There is only one set of Rules for all golf.
Not playing by the Rules in casual play is similar to cheating at Solitare. You are only cheating yourself.

Returning to the tee would not impress either my foursome or those following.

I guess that would be true for all players in your group or all players following that have NEVER lost a ball.

I guess that a provisional, in all cases where you do not see your ball land, would be the best approach.

It would be an approach which would probably save the greatest amount of time.

[Kilroy]

Drop a ball on the fairway where you were looking for your ball and pay no attention to your score for that particular hole.

And record an ESC (Equitable stroke Control http://handicap.ottawagolf.com/legendc.htm) "Maximum" score for that hole if you keep a handicap.

[zoic]

Nice answers folks. I find myself occasionally in this situation, and since I want to play properly by the rules and still be sensible, I usually mark an X on the card when this happens and just keep playing the hole from the approximate ball location or entry point. Later I adjust the score using ESC. I used to just add a stroke and finish with an actual number, but I realized it is pointless since ESC commands the outcome, and I the score I record is just not correct in any sense, it seems pointless to try and kid myself otherwise.

But I really liked the answers, the felt comfortable instead of implicit. Thanks.

[dreaded_snowman]

Man, I thought I had some vague clue of the rules, but I thought this one was within 2 clubs of nearest relief no closer to hole, not from where the ball lay.

I've been better this year for not slicing into the trees, so it hasn't been a huge factor, but I was a bit surprised that I misread a rule so badly (I actually carry a rulebook...)

Yet another reason I love this forum - casual education.

Cheers,
Snowman

[Pinshark]

so does this mean if I take unplayable and only get 2 club lengths from that spot...and I drop and still unplayable...another stroke so on till I can get out?

[dreaded_snowman]

It seems that you could indeed declare unplayable repeatedly, but you'd hit the stroke control limit in a hurry.

It would probably be far more attractive to hit a provisional. Even if you used your pitching wedge repeatedly, it would be better than multiple drops of 2 club lengths.

I would say that my future strategy when in doubt will be to lean towards a much safer club selection for the second shot when necessary.

Snowman

[Pinshark]

But a provisional is no help if you find your original ball. (unless I am mistaken)

[Gary Hill]

But a provisional is no help if you find your original ball. (unless I am mistaken)

You are correct.

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball.

[dreaded_snowman]

So now I'm confused....

I hit the ball. Heads for the trees, looks bad.
Then I hit a provisional, in the fairway (as unlikely as that seems)

I go up and find the first ball, but it's 15 feet into the woods, coudln't hope to play it. I declare it unplayable.

Rule 28a says that an option for unplayable is to play a ball as near as possible to where the original ball was played. This is effectively what the provisional is.

Ahhh... but the difference is I have to pick up the found ball, carry it back, and hit it again, just because it's the original ball? OK, so for any reasonable pace of play off TV, this isn't really an option, but as I'm sure you'll point out to me, da roolz is da roolz.

What a messed up combination of rules this seems to be.

Rob

[sharkshooter]

...
I go up and find the first ball, but it's 15 feet into the woods, coudln't hope to play it. I declare it unplayable.

...

If your provisional is in good shape, just don't look that far into the woods.

Works for me.

[Kilroy]

That's great if you have an unlimited supply of balls, or play crap balls, but most of us pay $2 - $5 per ball, so that's like throwing money away for the sake of a stroke.

I always look for my ball and take my lumps if I find it. If I were Phil, I'd definately not look for it!

[dreaded_snowman]

Often it's not me who finds the ball. In the past, I've looked fairly hard because I misunderstood the rule, and thought I could move to nearest reasonable relief, no closer to the hole.

[AAA]

So now I'm confused....

I hit the ball. Heads for the trees, looks bad.
Then I hit a provisional, in the fairway (as unlikely as that seems)

I go up and find the first ball, but it's 15 feet into the woods, coudln't hope to play it. I declare it unplayable.

Rule 28a says that an option for unplayable is to play a ball as near as possible to where the original ball was played. This is effectively what the provisional is.

Ahhh... but the difference is I have to pick up the found ball, carry it back, and hit it again, just because it's the original ball? OK, so for any reasonable pace of play off TV, this isn't really an option, but as I'm sure you'll point out to me, da roolz is da roolz.

What a messed up combination of rules this seems to be.

Rob

If the rule wasn't like that, everyone would hit a provisional everytime then go up and choose the one which had the best lie. Mulligans galore!

[dreaded_snowman]

If the rule wasn't like that, everyone would hit a provisional everytime then go up and choose the one which had the best lie. Mulligans galore!

It's not a mulligan - it's stroke and distance. Who wants to be lying 3 or (N+2) all the time?

My complaint is that stroke and distance is an option when the ball is declared unplayable, but I'm not allowed to hit and use a provvy if I find the ball, I have to walk back (if I want to follow the rules). That just can't happen in everyday golf, so I hit and take the mully (most players in flog just take a lateral drop, easy on the score...)

The only reason I can see for this combination of rules is to prevent ball substitution (you have to play your original ball).

[byerxa]

I'll play my provisional if I find the first ball but can't play it. I know, it is against the "rules", but for everyday golf there is no way I am going back to the tee to hit another one at that point. As for handicap, being a 13 it really does not matter because a stroke and distance situation is most likely going to push me into ESC territory anyhow. Also, IIRC if your first ball actually goes into a hazard and you play a provisional, the provisional is not actually a provisional but the ball in play, i.e., you have exercised the option to hit from the original spot when your ball goes in a hazard and you can no longer use one of the other options, e.g., drop at the point of entry.

Unplayable lie can be a nasty rule, but it can also be used to your advantage. For example, I hit over a green into a brutal strip of fescew. But there is perfectly good grass beyond that, so I declare unplayable, go back onto the better grass keeping the ball between me and the hole, chip on 1 putt and get my bogey. My brother in law playing with me starts to question what I did and said I could not do that. He did not know about the "as far back along the line between the ball and the hole" part and we had to dig out my dad's rule book to shut him up. One penalty stroke can be a lot less painful than a bunch of slashes in the crap.

[AAA]

It's not a mulligan - it's stroke and distance.

Yes. Sloppy wording

The only reason I can see for this combination of rules is to prevent ball substitution (you have to play your original ball).

More than that - you have to play your original ball as it lies.
You can't choose the nicest one.

[dreaded_snowman]

More than that - you have to play your original ball as it lies.
You can't choose the nicest one.

No, I don't have to play my original as it lies. I can declare it unplayable, pick it up and walk back to the tee. Or drop within 2 club lenghts, or back up on line between pin and ball. So if I go back to the tee (or wherever I hit it from last), it's effectively just like my provvy, the only difference is that I've changed balls if I use the provvy.

If I can hit the original at all, the provvy is never nicer, because it represents a drop for 3 (I've been penalized for the pleasure).

The whole issue here is that I can't use my provvy to play the stroke and distance rule, but as per byerxa above, I will continue to do so since pace of play will not allow otherwise, rules or no rules.

I'm not stressed about this, but clarifying will pound it into my brain forever more.

[LobWedge]

No, I don't have to play my original as it lies. I can declare it unplayable, pick it up and walk back to the tee. Or drop within 2 club lenghts, or back up on line between pin and ball. So if I go back to the tee (or wherever I hit it from last), it's effectively just like my provvy, the only difference is that I've changed balls if I use the provvy.

If I can hit the original at all, the provvy is never nicer, because it represents a drop for 3 (I've been penalized for the pleasure).

The whole issue here is that I can't use my provvy to play the stroke and distance rule, but as per byerxa above, I will continue to do so since pace of play will not allow otherwise, rules or no rules.

I'm not stressed about this, but clarifying will pound it into my brain forever more.

I agree with that line of thinking. We use that exact scenario in our NCGT events to help keep the pace. Again, it's not an official rule, just a local rule that we use that applies to our tour only. But, I would like to see it considered as a modification to the Unplayable Ball rule.

Here's how we show it...

Provisional ball played, Original ball found but unplayable:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

NCGT Local Rule alternative to option "a": In consideration of Pace of Play, if a player declares his ball unplayable, and has already played a provisional ball, and wishes to proceed under option “a” of the rule, he may declare his provisional to be in play and proceed from that point, applying the appropriate stroke(s) and distance penalty as prescribed by the rules, instead of returning to the spot of the previous stroke.

[Pinshark]

This all makes sense now. It is the part where you may drop in line as far back as you wish I was forgetting about.

[AAA]

We use that exact scenario in our NCGT events to help keep the pace.

If it's all about pace of play, why not simply use option b or c of Rule 28.

In your case the player has the advantage of choosing between a drop, which may be in a poor place or a perfectly sitting provisional .
Or if he doesn't like the provisional he looks for a nicer place for his drop.
No lose situation.

[Kilroy]

I am sure option a would never be considered if b and c were reasonable options in the situation the golfer finds himself in.

This is when I take an X and go play my provisional for the heck of it. The only exception is in a stroke play tournament (once or twice a year of 100 rounds) then it's back to the tee.

[byerxa]

Here's a question: Can you declare something unplayable without even looking for it? Say I blow my drive off into the trees and I know I am in jail but most likely could find the ball (typical of a pine tree grove). Can I immediately declare it unplayable, hit another and move on without even looking for my first ball? Of course, I'd probably go retrieve the first ball just for the sake of saving the ball

[jvincent]

Here's a question: Can you declare something unplayable without even looking for it?

Yes.

[LobWedge]

If it's all about pace of play, why not simply use option b or c of Rule 28.

In your case the player has the advantage of choosing between a drop, which may be in a poor place or a perfectly sitting provisional .
Or if he doesn't like the provisional he looks for a nicer place for his drop.
No lose situation.

It's mainly a consideration if b) & c) aren't a good option. The player can still choose any option under the rule, but measuring and dropping still take time. The thing that players need to remember though, is that if they choose to proceed by our local rule, thet need to count every stroke it took to get the provisional to where it is. As you know, a provisional ball can be hit more than once if it's not caught up to where the first ball is.

[Pinshark]

Here's a question: Can you declare something unplayable without even looking for it? Say I blow my drive off into the trees and I know I am in jail but most likely could find the ball (typical of a pine tree grove). Can I immediately declare it unplayable, hit another and move on without even looking for my first ball?

Yes. However your FC may choose to look for your ball.

[jvincent]

Yes. However your FC may choose to look for your ball.

If he looks for it after you have declared it unplayable all he is doing is looking for a freebie. Not that anyone here would do that.

[AAA]

Here's a question: Can you declare something unplayable without even looking for it? Say I blow my drive off into the trees and I know I am in jail but most likely could find the ball (typical of a pine tree grove). Can I immediately declare it unplayable, hit another and move on without even looking for my first ball? Of course, I'd probably go retrieve the first ball just for the sake of saving the ball

Yes, but you can only use option 28a. ie go back to where you last played.
You can't drop within 2 cl of course because you can't measure it.

In effect, by playing again you have made your first ball lost under the rules.

[Gary Hill]

You can declare a ball unplayable.

You cannot declare a ball lost.

[dreaded_snowman]

You can declare a ball unplayable.

You cannot declare a ball lost.

OK, so does that mean that if you hit a tee shot into the woods, you technically can't declare it unplayable there and then, and your second ball is implicitly a provisional until such time as you play that provisional past the point where the original ball is believed to lie?

According to the lost ball rule, the ball isn't lost until
a) not found within 5 minutes search
b) Stroke made at substituted ball
c) Stroke made at provisional past point where ball lies

The substituted ball one is interesting, because a ball brought in play when a ball is deemed lost is a substituted ball, and playing such a ball makes the first ball a lost ball.

If a player hits again from the tee and does not declare it a provisional ball (or declare the other ball unplayable), what is the second ball deemed to be according to the rules? A provvy or substituted ball?