Back knee flex

[hhk]

I think I might have stumbled onto something yesterday at the range. Tell me what you think.

I think I'm straightening out the back knee too much on the backswing. Not totally straight mind you but still, I think it's causing me to dip my front knee too much and causing my hips to over-rotate.

I tried to keep my back knee flexed more, in an athletic position. This kept my hips square and my torso seemed to stay quieter. The torso rotated but didn't move up and down. The hips stayed more parallel to the target through the whole swing.

Results were straighter shots. Am I onto something here or was this flukey? I don't see a lot of golf instruction focusing on this aspect of the lower body.

[hoylake]

No fluke, you are absolutely onto something, maintaining a flexed/braced right knee is critical. A tale, possibly apocryphal, had Hogan on the practice tee, striping iron after iron, then turning to nobody in particular and saying, you know why I'm so goddam good? Because my right knee doesn't move! Good golfing, dude...

[leftylucas]

A tale, possibly apocryphal, had Hogan on the practice tee, striping iron after iron, then turning to nobody in particular and saying, you know why I'm so goddam good? Because my right knee doesn't move! Good golfing, dude...

So it was Hogan who came up with the word "Dude" I knew it!

[hhk]

Damn! Check this out:

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/i...gansecret.html

I can't believe it's taken me 30 years to figure this out.

[hoylake]

That Hogan article is a real find. He was very mysterious about his so-called secret, Faldo went to him once when Hogan was like, 80, Faldo asked him the secret to winning the US Open, Hogan's reply: Shoot the lowest score.

A further 2 cents on Hogan -- his swing was indiosyncratic and then some. The majority of players, recreational anyway, fight a slice, Hogan fought a low duck hook and developed a swing to counter it. He had wrist and thumb ligature like Gumby, the lag in his swing was incredible, of today's top players only Sergio Garcia is a match, but Garcia has worked to remove some of the lag in recent years. Hogan laid it off at the top then dropped the club inside and practically behind him, he attacked under plane and severely inside. The combination led to a clubface wanting to turn over so he developed a weak grip, rolled the left arm open on the takeaway, cupped the left wrist at the top, a compendium of anti-hook maneuvers that worked for him (and then some, obviously) but in an average swing might slice the ball off the end of the world. Hogan's flexed right-knee business is rock solid, it's there in every good swing. The knee can move laterally a bit, maybe not, talk to Greg Norman, but straightening the right knee on the backswing is a death move. Dude...

[byerxa]

Straightening the back knee is almost always a symptom of over-swinging and is one of the reverse pivot gremlins. Once you start to reverse pivot it becomes almost impossible to hit the ball consistently and the loss of power is astonishing. I think a lot of LPGA players fight this somewhat as they tend to wail at the ball like lunatics.

[guitarman]

I think I might have stumbled onto something yesterday at the range. Tell me what you think.

I think I'm straightening out the back knee too much on the backswing. Not totally straight mind you but still, I think it's causing me to dip my front knee too much and causing my hips to over-rotate.

I tried to keep my back knee flexed more, in an athletic position. This kept my hips square and my torso seemed to stay quieter. The torso rotated but didn't move up and down. The hips stayed more parallel to the target through the whole swing.

Results were straighter shots. Am I onto something here or was this flukey? I don't see a lot of golf instruction focusing on this aspect of the lower body.

The first lesson I had focused on grip and stance. Especially keeping that back knee straight. While I set up I usally flex it in just a bit making sure I've got good wieght to the inside of my foot.

[hhk]

Doing practice swings in front of a mirror, I can see that if I straighten the right knee, it causes a whole host of problems. It throws all the geometry of the upper body out of whack. I wasn't guilty of completely straightening it in the past but I did not keep a consistent flex through the swing. By doing that (keeping the right knee flexed), I am finding that I stay balanced through the swing even if I swing hard. It makes sense - it's a balanced, athletic stance. And the geometry of my upper body stays rather static. I can see how this is the foundation of a repeatable swing.

Before, with a dynamic right knee, the amount you flex it varies from swing to swing resulting in inconsistent ball striking - one good shot, one bad shot, etc.

[leftylucas]

Check out this video, it says exactly what you dsicovered.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...lf+instruction

[hhk]

lefty, that's perfect. Exactly what I need to see. Can't wait to work on it.

[faldo]

Ditto....SWEETTT

[BC MIST]

In addition to the flexed right knee, here are some additional observations about Hogan’s swing, based on this pic.

1. There is no significant leg or hip drive here. His lower body is stable. Did he get his power from rotating his trunk? Not according to this picture.

2. While the left wrist may have been cupped at the top, it is obvious that it is FLAT at impact. So why have it cupped at the top? It may have been good for him because of his tendency, but not necessarily good for us. Keep it flat/square for best results.

3. His right wrist is BENT at impact. Hello, Mark Evershed. "Left wrist is flat, right wrist is BENT."

4. The leverage angles of the right elbow and right wrist are releasing, but have not released, and will complete their release after impact. Those who consciously release or instructors who teach one, are doing us a disservice.

5. Right foot is FLAT on the ground. Just like Moe.

6. He has taken a good divot. The best way to GET the weight shifted.

7. While it looks like he is blocking the shot or extending down the line(yikes!!) observing the upper left arm which is tight against his upper left chest, indicates that he is not.

8. His head is over his right knee.

[hhk]

In addition to the flexed right knee, here are some additional observations about Hogan’s swing, based on this pic.

1. There is no significant leg or hip drive here. His lower body is stable. Did he get his power from rotating his trunk? Not according to this picture.

2. While the left wrist may have been cupped at the top, it is obvious that it is FLAT at impact. So why have it cupped at the top? It may have been good for him because of his tendency, but not necessarily good for us. Keep it flat/square for best results.

3. His right wrist is BENT at impact. Hello, Mark Evershed. "Left wrist is flat, right wrist is BENT."

4. The leverage angles of the right elbow and right wrist are releasing, but have not released, and will complete their release after impact. Those who consciously release or instructors who teach one, are doing us a disservice.

5. Right foot is FLAT on the ground. Just like Moe.

6. He has taken a good divot. The best way to GET the weight shifted.

7. While it looks like he is blocking the shot or extending down the line(yikes!!) observing the upper left arm which is tight against his upper left chest, indicates that he is not.

8. His head is over his right knee.

What is so horrible about extending down the line? I thought this is what Moe Norman did.

[hoylake]

Moe did try to extend down the line. He had a drill where he would put a coin on the ground ahead of the ball and another coin behind the ball, both coins on the target line. He would then swing and try to get the clubhead passing over both coins. In terms of whether Moe actually did extend down the line -- the clubhead flashes left after inpact quickly in any swing -- it's not relevant because the swing thought and the drill worked for him. Trevino tried to chase it down the line as well. In terms of the revolutionary "bent wright wrist/ flat left wrist" at impact, it likely was revolutionary back when Harry Vardon did it, hey I got a bulletin, folks, the Titanic just went down!

[BC MIST]

What is so horrible about extending down the line? I thought this is what Moe Norman did.

This is what he FELT he did, but he did NOT do it and nor should you.

Extending down the line is as great a swing wrecker as consciously trying to "release" the club, or drive the legs,.... If you try to extend down the line, you will be off plane to the right and that is where your ball will go. Your left arm will significantly separate from your left upper chest leaving the face wide open.

Buy a $4.00 laser pointer and tape it to the hosel of a club. Address the ball so that the beam points to the floor (Better done inside). As you take a slo-mo practice swing the laser beam must point to the target line both extended right and left of the ball, from hip high right to hip high left. This is what ON PLANE really means. If you extend down the line, watch where the beam of light goes. Now you understand why one does NOT extend down the line and what ON PLANE means. Two for the price of one.

[BC MIST]

In terms of the revolutionary "bent wright wrist/ flat left wrist" at impact, it likely was revolutionary back when Harry Vardon did it, hey I got a bulletin, folks, the Titanic just went down!

What cabin are you in?

Actually, my readings indicate that turn of the century hickory shafts were excessively whippy and unless the golfer actually did roll the forearms over to shut the face, the ball would slice. This was similar to graphite shafts when they first came on the market with their 10* of torque.

[dH]

I read in a recent golf mag that all the pros turn the clubface at impact for added distance? Any thoughts? I have hit it extremely far like that but it's so hard to time. Do most pro's do that?

[hoylake]

What cabin are you in?

Good one.

Actually, my readings indicate that turn of the century hickory shafts were excessively whippy and unless the golfer actually did roll the forearms over to shut the face, the ball would slice. This was similar to graphite shafts when they first came on the market with their 10* of torque.

Harry at impact, left wrist flat if I'm not mistaken...

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings...ardonswing.htm

[BC MIST]

Harry at impact, left wrist flat if I'm not mistaken...

These are excellent pictures and prove my point. From an absolutely horrible top of the backswing position which would have even the poorest of instructors shudder, Vardon gets himself into a commendable mid downswing position in pic 6. The problem here is that he is already well into an early release position. In the ideal "6/100ths" position, the hands are directly above the right knee when the shaft is parallel to the ground. Harry's shaft is parallel but his hands are no where close to being above his right knee.

In pic 7 Harry is in a good impact position with his hands ahead of the ball and the left wrist flat. However, HE IS NOT AT IMPACT. The slightly post impact position, pic 8, when compared to the shot of Hogan from my post above, shows a huge difference. Hogan's right wrist is significantly bent while Vardon's is FLAT as a pancake. Hogan's left wrist is FLAT while, if you draw a line from the back of Vardon's left wrist to the outside of his left elbow, it is apparent that the left wrist is NOT flat, but breaking down, and is obviously confirmed by the rollover position of the forearms in pic 9.

Further verification of the very early release is that in pic 6, halfway down, you can see that the shaft is already bending forward, which is characteristic of what does happen through impact of a modern medium or late releaser. Radial acceleration stopped shortly after he started his downswing. The effect of this today is to increase the launch angle of the ball and that is what a soft tipped shaft does for modern golfers. For Harry the shaft will bend forward BEFORE impact and actually be rebounding back by impact having no affect on launch angle but indicating power loss. It also indicates that the stiffness of the shaft will have no affect on accuracy, which was a good thing for those times.

Harry's top of the backswing position would please Jack Keuykendall as it is almost a classic Lever Powered Golf position.

A picture's worth a thousand, er, ten thousand words.

[BigFlopper]

... In the ideal "6/100ths" position, the hands are directly above the right knee when the shaft is parallel to the ground. Harry's shaft is parallel but his hands are no where close to being above his right knee.
...

So how do you get the hands above the right knee and shaft parallel to the ground? Does it depend on where your hands are at the top (i.e. in front of you body), or do you slow down the lower body/speed up the hands to get them in this position, or a combination of these or none of these?

[hoylake]

These are excellent pictures and prove my point. From an absolutely horrible top of the backswing position which would have even the poorest of instructors shudder, Vardon gets himself into a commendable mid downswing position in pic 6. The problem here is that he is already well into an early release position. In the ideal "6/100ths" position, the hands are directly above the right knee when the shaft is parallel to the ground. Harry's shaft is parallel but his hands are no where close to being above his right knee.

In pic 7 Harry is in a good impact position with his hands ahead of the ball and the left wrist flat. However, HE IS NOT AT IMPACT. The slightly post impact position, pic 8, when compared to the shot of Hogan from my post above, shows a huge difference. Hogan's right wrist is significantly bent while Vardon's is FLAT as a pancake. Hogan's left wrist is FLAT while, if you draw a line from the back of Vardon's left wrist to the outside of his left elbow, it is apparent that the left wrist is NOT flat, but breaking down, and is obviously confirmed by the rollover position of the forearms in pic 9.

Further verification of the very early release is that in pic 6, halfway down, you can see that the shaft is already bending forward, which is characteristic of what does happen through impact of a modern medium or late releaser. Radial acceleration stopped shortly after he started his downswing. The effect of this today is to increase the launch angle of the ball and that is what a soft tipped shaft does for modern golfers. For Harry the shaft will bend forward BEFORE impact and actually be rebounding back by impact having no affect on launch angle but indicating power loss. It also indicates that the stiffness of the shaft will have no affect on accuracy, which was a good thing for those times.

Harry's top of the backswing position would please Jack Keuykendall as it is almost a classic Lever Powered Golf position.

A picture's worth a thousand, er, ten thousand words.

Well, as usual you know what you're talking about. Ol' Harry is releasing early but I suspect neither of us really has the heart to pick on a guy who won 6 British Opens while smoking a pipe and wearing a 20-pound tweed jacket.

At impact, in spite of the early release, Harry's left wrist is not fully cupped and his right wrist has only begun to turn over. My point is that the flat left wrist / bent right wrist, is there in all good swings and has historically been there. I just disagree somewhat on how best to get there. I don't like thoughts of holding on, hanging on.

What can happen is this: if you swing down with the arms while thinking about holding on with the wrists, trying to delay the release, the hold on thought can eventually transmit to the arms themselves, everything starts to hang on, the mind then registers the body as the only remaining power source and all manner of lurching can occur to compensate. Some very good players, 80s high 70s, struggle with this exact bit of business.

I am no fan of golf instructors, believe me. From our limited discussions on this board I discern you know more about the golf swing than three-quarters of Ottawa area golf instructors combined. But I have been at this long enough to be wary of magic bullets, and will so continue to enjoy the discussion.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I read in a recent golf mag that all the pros turn the clubface at impact for added distance? Any thoughts? I have hit it extremely far like that but it's so hard to time. Do most pro's do that?

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever of being written in a golf magazine, so it's probably true...seriously they are mortals and probably happy jsut hitting the ball solid all day long. I can't imagine all the pros having some secret move that none of us know abut that isn't simply a product of a solid swing.

[BC MIST]

What can happen is this: if you swing down with the arms while thinking about holding on with the wrists, trying to delay the release, the hold on thought can eventually transmit to the arms themselves, everything starts to hang on, the mind then registers the body as the only remaining power source and all manner of lurching can occur to compensate. Some very good players, 80s high 70s, struggle with this exact bit of business.

I am no fan of golf instructors, believe me. From our limited discussions on this board I discern you know more about the golf swing than three-quarters of Ottawa area golf instructors combined. But I have been at this long enough to be wary of magic bullets, and will so continue to enjoy the discussion.

What distinguishes a Tour pro action from that of the rest of us, is their ability to reach the "6/100ths" position on the downswing, the position where the hands are directly in front of the right knee AND the club shaft is parallel to or not yet parallel to the ground. Also, most golfers can achieve a position at the top where the angle between the left arm and the club shaft is 90*, with a flat left wrist. Some golfers appear to have a more acute angle, however, their swings are flatter and PERSPECTIVE gives us the illusion that the angle is much more acute. Considering these two concepts, my burning question is why can't the ordinary golfer bring the 90* angle position at the top to the "6/100ths" position part way down, and be a better ball striker?

One answer is hit anxiety,(HA) an affliction most of us suffer from. HA causes the shoulders to turn more horizontally, the arms to come out, and the RIGHT WRIST to flatten. Thus, most golfers slice, at least initially.

Another answer is what we are taught to do at the start of the downswing. If we are taught to rotate the body, legs, hips, knees, toward the target or to "clear the left" side," most golfers will do what I just described above, come over the top, because a horizontal motion of the body CANNOT cause a "vertical" motion of the arms, which is necessary to bring the club head into the ball from the inside. WE MUST be taught to move the arms down ON PLANE and just allow the body to anticipate and respond. Most don't. While we may FEEL the horizontal like body movement, it is useless unless the arms move down correctly.

Thirdly, we are also taught to swing down to the ball from the top. This, once again causes an over the top move. The solution then, is to move the hands, with a feeling of BACK, parallel to the target line, then DOWN and OUT to the ball, all the time hitting DOWN on the ball and taking a divot. The simple idea of taking a divot will shift the weight of the body into a stable position which will allow the arms/hands package to release at the correct time without any conscious manipulation by the golfer.

How should an instructor do this? IMO, by frequent repetitions of the correct motion, in slow motion and static positions, followed by the golfer just swinging with NO conscious golf thoughts.(Clear Keys)

The slo motion and static positions emphasize the flat left and bent right wrist positions. Basically: 1. Preset the wrists to the FL and BR position. 2. Move to the top. 3. Flex the left knee forward. 4. Vertical drop - where the club is brought down to the "6/100ths" position. 5. Rotate to impact. 6. Finish. 7 Arms down - evaluation. One cannot learn the correct motion at full speed. It must be done slowly and very often.

The wrists must remain in the bent right flat left position as long as possible. Radial acceleration does this at the start of the downswing but as soon as the right wrist begins to straighten, for whatever reason, or the golfer slows down the hands, power and accuracy will be lost. This is NOT opinion, but simple physics. In all but the rarest of golfers, it is impossible to keep the right wrist bent, LONG ENOUGH.

In practice the golfer should do this consciously, but on the course, it should NEVER be thought of. Never!

From what I see, hear and read, there are very few instructors who teach this, and this is why golfers improve so slowly. Instead , they teach, drive the legs, hips, whatever, or the emphasize a "wide or big arc," going back, or other ridiculous or wrong motions. Their big arc is actually a small arc and irrelevant, anyway. It is the downswing arc that must be big and if they know something about radius and circumference, they would see this.

[BC MIST]

So how do you get the hands above the right knee and shaft parallel to the ground? Does it depend on where your hands are at the top (i.e. in front of you body), or do you slow down the lower body/speed up the hands to get them in this position, or a combination of these or none of these?

Some relevant comments are in the post above.

If you are in a position at the top, with the bulk of your weight is on the flexed, right leg, all you have to do is hit DOWN, ON PLANE, on the ball, while maintaining the bent right wrist position. By hitting DOWN on the ball, your weight will get shifted.

It is virtually impossible to take a divot, WITHOUT shifting your weight, so work on taking the divot, instead of shifting the weight. In hitting the ball harder with the arms, the weight will get shifted faster, but it is somewthing that the mind has the body do, subconsciously. Forget about trying to have the body do something consciously.

[Powerdraw]

BC, i find a way to get the hands to go back before down and out is at the top, driving the right shoulder to the inside quad of the ball leaving the hands at top of the swing feel...you like?

[hoylake]

What distinguishes a Tour pro action from that of the rest of us, is their ability to reach the "6/100ths" position on the downswing, the position where the hands are directly in front of the right knee AND the club shaft is parallel to or not yet parallel to the ground. Also, most golfers can achieve a position at the top where the angle between the left arm and the club shaft is 90*, with a flat left wrist. Some golfers appear to have a more acute angle, however, their swings are flatter and PERSPECTIVE gives us the illusion that the angle is much more acute. Considering these two concepts, my burning question is why can't the ordinary golfer bring the 90* angle position at the top to the "6/100ths" position part way down, and be a better ball striker?

One answer is hit anxiety,(HA) an affliction most of us suffer from. HA causes the shoulders to turn more horizontally, the arms to come out, and the RIGHT WRIST to flatten. Thus, most golfers slice, at least initially.

Another answer is what we are taught to do at the start of the downswing. If we are taught to rotate the body, legs, hips, knees, toward the target or to "clear the left" side," most golfers will do what I just described above, come over the top, because a horizontal motion of the body CANNOT cause a "vertical" motion of the arms, which is necessary to bring the club head into the ball from the inside. WE MUST be taught to move the arms down ON PLANE and just allow the body to anticipate and respond. Most don't. While we may FEEL the horizontal like body movement, it is useless unless the arms move down correctly.

Thirdly, we are also taught to swing down to the ball from the top. This, once again causes an over the top move. The solution then, is to move the hands, with a feeling of BACK, parallel to the target line, then DOWN and OUT to the ball, all the time hitting DOWN on the ball and taking a divot. The simple idea of taking a divot will shift the weight of the body into a stable position which will allow the arms/hands package to release at the correct time without any conscious manipulation by the golfer.

How should an instructor do this? IMO, by frequent repetitions of the correct motion, in slow motion and static positions, followed by the golfer just swinging with NO conscious golf thoughts.(Clear Keys)

The slo motion and static positions emphasize the flat left and bent right wrist positions. Basically: 1. Preset the wrists to the FL and BR position. 2. Move to the top. 3. Flex the left knee forward. 4. Vertical drop - where the club is brought down to the "6/100ths" position. 5. Rotate to impact. 6. Finish. 7 Arms down - evaluation. One cannot learn the correct motion at full speed. It must be done slowly and very often.

The wrists must remain in the bent right flat left position as long as possible. Radial acceleration does this at the start of the downswing but as soon as the right wrist begins to straighten, for whatever reason, or the golfer slows down the hands, power and accuracy will be lost. This is NOT opinion, but simple physics. In all but the rarest of golfers, it is impossible to keep the right wrist bent, LONG ENOUGH.

In practice the golfer should do this consciously, but on the course, it should NEVER be thought of. Never!

From what I see, hear and read, there are very few instructors who teach this, and this is why golfers improve so slowly. Instead , they teach, drive the legs, hips, whatever, or the emphasize a "wide or big arc," going back, or other ridiculous or wrong motions. Their big arc is actually a small arc and irrelevant, anyway. It is the downswing arc that must be big and if they know something about radius and circumference, they would see this.

You cover a lot of ground here. I agree with most of it. The early wrist-set business, the pre-set as you call it, is a critical and, in the current milieu of golf instruction, utterly ignored method of learning to develop a proper swing path. It allows the hands and arms to take the club to the top in a single "package" and subsequently develop the feel of an unconscious or automatic release through the ball. In my experience most players, at first blush anyway, cannot get their heads around even trying this. Either from conditioning by bad golf instruction, or due to the degree of trust involved, they cannot believe in a swing where the release just happens without some kind of conscious hit at the ball.

By the general mantra of golf instruction, the timing of the wrist cock is seen as a matter of personal preference. They say, oh well Payne Stewart and Nicklaus cocked the wrists late, Johnny Miller and Duval early, it's up to the individual blah blah. This ignores something fundamental, which is that for the majority of players an early wrist cock, or preset, is really the only way to control the club and develop a proper swing path. Setting the wrists late and maintaining control is very very tough. It ties in with your note on "taking it back low", another horrid faux pas counseled by golf instructors. Taking it back low destroys the swing plane, encourages a late wrist cock and pulls your body off the ball. I think the move is counseled, mistakenly, because it promotes a big shoulder turn. What instructors don't understand is that you don't want a big shoulder turn if you are not flexible enough to perform one while still staying tension-free and balanced. They tell you to shove your left shoulder over your right knee. The thought itself is utterly ruinous, I can't believe it is still even taught, but it is and frequently. If you swing the club on plane you can make half the shoulder turn a pro makes, you will not have the distance of course but you will hit a ton of good golf shots -- because you are in balance, swinging within your structure, as it were.

In terms of the unconsious release -- once this is ingrained, to really become a good player, I think you need to develop a feel through the ball with the hands. The good player can, via different thoughts, vary the release to achieve different trajectories and shot shapes. The trouble is, many players are trying to do this without understanding the unconscious release in the first place. The slo-motion static drill you advocate, from what I can see, may be the chronic slicer's best chance to develop a proper swing path, learn what a proper swing actually feels like.

[BC MIST]

The good player can, via different thoughts, vary the release to achieve different trajectories and shot shapes. The trouble is, many players are trying to do this without understanding the unconscious release in the first place.

I can just imagine you and I sitting down with a panel of the typical local instructors, questioning their commonly taught BS. They would be yelling, swearing and probably threatening us with lifelong 3puttitus and the only intelligent dialogue would be, "Are you a CPGA pro? If not, foff."

I appreciate your comments about a preset as I begin EVERY full swing with a presetting of the hands to the "6/100ths" position, before I swing. More recently I have been working on a "impact backwards " drill where I setup and then move my knees forward into my desired impact position, then preset and swing. Played 27 with it on Monday and hit 23 greens and 4 fringes. For the most part this drill eliminated the left side and during the 27, I hit a host of at the stick shots. Two radical motions, ones that would and have been ridiculed by the experts, but to that I would say, "Watch the ball go before you open your mouth.

It may be possible for good players to vary the release position to manipulate the trajectory, however, this requires world class timing, if done on full shots. For we mortals, it is best to just alter our setup and club face positions, and then swing normally, to achieve the desired results.

BTW: I know one local pro who agrees with us.

[dH]

BC- Is there anywhere online that demonstrates these drills?

[hoylake]

I can just imagine you and I sitting down with a panel of the typical local instructors, questioning their commonly taught BS. They would be yelling, swearing and probably threatening us with lifelong 3puttitus and the only intelligent dialogue would be, "Are you a CPGA pro? If not, foff."

The sad truth is you are probably right. There are Ottawa golf instructors who have never read Hogan's Five Lessons. If this does not sound like much, imagine a physics professor who has never read Einstein or Isaac Newton. Not to say everything in Hogan's Five Lessons is correct, it isn't, but when someone lays claim to expertise on a particular subject and is ignorant of the developmental history, the canon, the body of knowledge of that subject -- well let me get out the pointer, see on video here, Ernie Els is doing this and, ha ha, well look at you you poor SOB...

I appreciate your comments about a preset as I begin EVERY full swing with a presetting of the hands to the "6/100ths" position, before I swing. More recently I have been working on a "impact backwards " drill where I setup and then move my knees forward into my desired impact position, then preset and swing. Played 27 with it on Monday and hit 23 greens and 4 fringes. For the most part this drill eliminated the left side and during the 27, I hit a host of at the stick shots. Two radical motions, ones that would and have been ridiculed by the experts, but to that I would say, "Watch the ball go before you open your mouth.

It's interesting -- I used a full and early wrist preset as you do for quite a while and played very well with it but was always vulnerable to the big miss left. One or two shots a round, usually at critical times. It goes back to the hanging on stuff I was talking about, I felt the club getting behind me coming down and just couldn't tame it. I solved it, or addressed it anyway, by blending the wrist preset a little more with the arm swing on the takeaway. It made the release marginally less automatic and allowed me to feel the shot a little more. It worked for me, 75s and 76s have turned into 71s and 72s.

What is cool, to me, is that we have both sort of travelled the same route independently. If you are hitting 23 out of 27 greens you are clearly down to scratch. I don't think it's an accident that we both, after considerable searching and exploration and dissatisfaction with the instruction out there, developed swings using a similar motion, the early wrist-set, taking the arms-wrist package to the top. You know more about it than I do but I know this much -- this kind of swing is not generally taught. And as you have noted, if someone is willing to give it a try, learn what a proper unconscious release actually feels like, it's game on, real improvement and joy lie ahead.