Draw Bias Drivers - Who Benefits?

[BC MIST]

Assumption: a pure draw starts right of target line and gently curves back to target line.

Who would benefit from a draw bias driver?

Golfers who:

1. Pull? - No, because the ball would curve farther left
2. Pull/Hookers? - No, because the ball would curve farther left
3. Left to right slicers? – No/Yes, as ball would slice slightly less

4. Ball starts straight and goes straight? – No, because the ball would now hook
5. Ball starts straight and then curves left? - No, because the ball would curve farther left
6. Ball starts straight, then fades? – ball would now go straight.

7. Push – Yes. Now the ball would curve back toward the target line? A PURE DRAW.
8. Push/Faders? – No. Ball would now be pushed
9. Ball starts right and curves back to target line? – A PURE DRAW. - No, because the ball would curve farther left.

From the above then, the only benefit would be to golfers who now PUSH the ball, or one who hits the ball straight with a fade at the end.

Now, and most importantly IMO, how much does it cost for #6 and #7 to turn their left hand grip one knuckle to the right?

I just saved you $500.

[byerxa]

Agreed - only people who have a reasonable swing plane but simply fail to get the clubhead squared in time would truly benefit. But how many people do you know who are actually like that? The bulk of the targetted buying public are pull-slicers (your #3). Instead of getting a few lessons to get the swing plane sorted out, people would rather try equipment to "fix" the problem. However, I find the moveable weight thing hard to believe because for this type of swing you would need to move a lot more weight than you can to really make a difference. And then you would have to aim to the right because the swing plane is out to in. Of course, getting the club face square with the out to in swing is an iffy proposition at best anyhow.

Another candidate is someone who has a good swing and wants to "tune" the ball flight. But that is a much smaller market so that is not the intended audience - usually they are giving the clubs (and sometimes lots of $$$) to these guys/gals anyway!

It is amazing how much bad contact robs from distance. Good contact alone is worth way more yards any "improvement" club could ever provide. I have been fighting a dreadful "pull" yip for months with the driver. As I come into the ball I sort of twist out of it and try to "pull" the club through. I lose balance and I have to lay off to avoid a smothering duck hook. Can barely carry over 220 with a 100mph ss - and it is an ugly pull slice ! Finally a few days ago at the range I really analyzed what I was doing and realized the yip was right at contact. Once I started keeping stable and releasing out through the ball I got my straight drives back with 240-250 carry. All of this had absolutely zero to do with the club.

[dreaded_snowman]

I think there's a few things in the mix for these clubs that are overlooked by your assessment....

These clubs are pretty obviously targeted at slicers - push slice or slice. It's the age-old "fix your slice the easy way!" marketing ploy. Like hybrids, most of the purists pooh-pooh such a club as a compensation for a swing flaw (which it almost definitely is).

Also, I think in many cases, this is a club that gets these golfers moving from a relatively mediocre club to a high end club - draw setup or not. There's something to be said for the confidence boost of an expensive club (driver, putter or otherwise) combined with the fact that it probably is a better club than they may have handled in the past.

And last, but not least, the chances that the buyer of this club has any real consistency is probably slim - so the assessment of how they hit their shots is probably describing an average-to-good shot, leaving out the horrible pulls while they're turned far left expecting a slice....

I have a fade (when it's behaving), push-slice (when I think about hitting hard), and a horrible pull when I swing so hard I figure my eyes are shut when I swing (maybe I just black out because all of the blood rushes to my hands due to centrifugal force).

All that said, I'm with byerxa on this one - take the $500 and get some lessons for a year. If you still stink after that, you can always pick up last year's used draw driver in here (warning, may have sky marks ) for a song.

Snowman

[Indio]

ahem, Rob, you told me 2 years too late and Bugsy paid $720 for my R7

[mcgoo]

If 9 out of 10 golfers have a problem with slicing, 9 out of 10 clubs are made improperly.

[Indio]

If 9 out of 10 golfers have a problem with slicing, 9 out of 10 clubs are made improperly.

Just so I understand what you are saying McGoo, are you saying that in these 9 out of 10 cases, it is an improperly manufactured club and nothing to do with how the club is being used?

[Hacker]

ahem, Rob, you told me 2 years too late and Bugsy paid $720 for my R7

Is she looking to adopt another son by any chance? I make my own bed

[dreaded_snowman]

Just so I understand what you are saying McGoo, are you saying that in these 9 out of 10 cases, it is an improperly manufactured club and nothing to do with how the club is being used?

Interesting bit how I slice like a demon, but my brother can take the same club and hit it straight down the fairway. He must have a *REALLY* crappy swing to make a defective club hit straight like that.

[Indio]

Is she looking to adopt another son by any chance? I make my own bed

Shes already got 3 of us


Bed??? whats a bed???

[mcgoo]

Jesuit Syllogism

Premise; I am saying that if 9 out of 10 players (according to the experts) have a problem with slicing, not hooking (especially new players).

And; if this is due to an outside-in swing.

Then; an outside-in swing is the more natural swing for human beings rather than an inside-out swing.

Therefore; why make clubs, for so many, many, years, that have an inside-out swing bias in order to square the clubface at impact,

Thus; imposing countless hours of frustration on those seeking outdoor recreation.

Empirically, as a third year player with a natural outside-in swing, I have experienced that the new offset drivers were designed for my swing, just as offset irons are easier to hit for new players. And heel weighting such as TM alsoworks. As my swing becomes more inside-out from repeatly practicing an unnatural movement,, I am starting to prefer the heel weights to the offset solution. I now hook the TM draw 460 that has both heel weights and offset hosel, but hit the R7 425 with the weights set for a draw reasonably straight.

I think most new golfers should start with an offset driver to help their confidence and reduce beginner’s frustrations.I am going away for a few days so I will not have to face the wrath of my detractors on this topic until mid-week.

[Indio]

Jesuit Syllogism

Premise; I am saying that if 9 out of 10 players (according to the experts) have a problem with slicing, not hooking (especially new players).

And; if this is due to an outside-in swing.

Then; an outside-in swing is the more natural swing for human beings rather than an inside-out swing.

Therefore; why make clubs, for so many, many, years, that have an inside-out swing bias in order to square the clubface at impact,

Thus; imposing countless hours of frustration on those seeking outdoor recreation.

Empirically, as a third year player with a natural outside-in swing, I have experienced that the new offset drivers were designed for my swing, just as offset irons are easier to hit for new players. And heel weighting such as TM alsoworks. As my swing becomes more inside-out from repeatly practicing an unnatural movement,, I am starting to prefer the heel weights to the offset solution. I now hook the TM draw 460 that has both heel weights and offset hosel, but hit the R7 425 with the weights set for a draw reasonably straight.

I think most new golfers should start with an offset driver to help their confidence and reduce beginner’s frustrations.I am going away for a few days so I will not have to face the wrath of my detractors on this topic until mid-week.

I'm confused, what has all this got to do with 'improperly made clubs'

[jonf]

why make clubs, for so many, many, years, that have an inside-out swing bias in order to square the clubface at impact,

Mainly because people don't like to admit they have a bad swing, so they don't like to use a club (such as an offset driver) that admits to the world "I can't hit the ball straight." But, since the pros used draw biased clubs, there's no problem with it. Is this rational? of course not, but I do think that's the reason for it. If people would buy them, they would make them, but people just don't like to admit their swing is imperfect, even though we all know it is.

[mcnorth]

I'm with mcgoo on this one. I considered getting a set of unforgiving blades and using undersized woods so that I could really learn how to groove my swing and feel what a good shot is supposed to feel like. I figured with those clubs my good swings would be rewarded and then I could learn from my mistakes.

But then I thought, "what the hell do I golf for?"

I want to enjoy golf now. I don't have the time nor patience, nor inclination, to spend hundreds of dollars to go out and be frustrated constantly.

Why avoid "game improvement" clubs when I am 100% a golfer who just wants to play and have fun today with my friends. Not compete in tournaments or the like - just play.

I figured I'd appreciate the offset, oversized driver and I do as it helps to minimize my mistakes as I learn. My "irons" are all forgiving ironwoods that are designed to help me get the ball up and straighten it out. And when I don't hit square it doesn't go quite as bad as it would (maybe should some would say) otherwise. My putter is heavy to help me from getting too wristy.

All of these purchases were made with the thought that they would help me hit the ball straighter while I learned. Do I sometimes feel like I'm in for a major-league plateau somewhere along the way. Yes. Am I limiting my improvement? Maybe. Am I having fun NOW. A resounding yes.

I wouldn't consider the weighted R7 or the draw-biased model of this year because it's not offset. Even a generous closed face isn't enough to help me. I need that offset. I'm addicted to it now - in fact I have two heavenwood clones that aren't offset and just have the closed face angle and I pull those suckers something fierce because my swing has become 'set' on offset it seems.

[byerxa]

I think most new golfers should start with an offset driver to help their confidence and reduce beginner’s frustrations.I am going away for a few days so I will not have to face the wrath of my detractors on this topic until mid-week.

No wrath, but I would think it would be better to learn the basics of a good golf swing from a qualified pro. I sure wish I was taught the basics properly when I was a kid learning to play - I know I would be a good single digit handicapper today instead of bobbing between 11 and 14. Makes the game a lot more enjoyable regardless of what club you are using. And what clubs you are using seem a lot less important. I envy this whole mega $$ golf club marketing thing - wish I could get people to part with their money so easily in futility!

The driver is a bad club for a beginner regardless. A 43" 12-15* large head club (maybe with some offset) would be good, but egos have a nasty effect on people. I read at one PGA event they looked at the drivers of both the pros and amateurs at the pro-am, and the pros' averaged 9.2* and the amateurs' 9.5* (or something close to that). Kind of ridiculous, really.

[mcnorth]

My clubs are totally without ego.

I take lessons too but want to get out there and have fun now.

[mcnorth]

I'm confused, what has all this got to do with 'improperly made clubs'

He's saying why are they designing clubs that don't fit the majority of people's swing? If people come from the inside to out (or whatever) clubs should have always been designed for that. The original design is flawed and we keep building on what is essentially an improperly designed tool because it more often hinders rather than helps us. (and by us I mean most people - some people have figured out how to use this tool but it's not majority friendly)

(that's my take on his posts, anyway)

[Indio]

I'm with mcgoo on this one.

I think I might be with McGoo as well but I am not sure that is exactly what he is saying. I have no problem buying clubs that will help me play better, if that is possible! But Mcgoo said that 9 out of 10 clubs are improperly made and that has me wondering what he is trying to say. Even with his explenation, I am still confused but if the way you have intrepreted it is hat he was trying to say, then I agree but would not have sadi that the clubs were improperly made, I would have said that 9 out of 10 players pick the wrong clubs for their swing.

[mcgoo]

Jonf;

My premise questions the traditional description of a “bad swing”, that if it is not inside-out it is bad, despite outside-in being the natural swing for most golfers. It is bad because clubs have been made for years to perform best utilizing an inside-out swing. Why? Perhaps because the first clubs were made with a straight face like hockey sticks were for decades.

Indio;

Are not most clubfaces straight to open. If straight then a straight swing would be best but this is very difficult to do without enormous practice. Finally, some clubs are being made (designed) properly, closed face for the swing characteristics of most new golfers.


mcnorth has sumarized my position well

[Indio]

Indio;

Are not most clubfaces straight to open. If straight then a straight swing would be best but this is very difficult to do without enormous practice. Finally, some clubs are being made (designed) properly, closed face for the swing characteristics of most new golfers.


mcnorth has sumarized my position well

McGoo, I still don't see why you would blame the club makers, it is the players fault for not picking the clubs that fit their swing. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree who is a fault, the player for not selecting clubs that fit his/her swing or the club maker for making clubs the way they felt they should be made.

Thanks for the 'summary' McNorth

[Marcos]

Some people draw the ball, some people fade the ball.After a few trips to the golf range with some lead tape it is safe to say that whatever you are playing at the course on a given day is what you will play that day.Anybody try a new approach like hitting it straight?Save your $$$$ work on your swing and then you can command a fade or draw on demand(wich by the way i have not figured out yet.

[Golfbum]

First off, the new Draw R7 is $369.00 Cnd, not $500. R7's are fine, but if you want a true slice cure buy the Draw R7 at $369.00 I hit this driver and had a hard time fading it.

Second off. What is so wrong with people using clubs that actually help cure swing faults? Not everyone playing golf has time to groove a great swing, not everyone has the physical abilities to groove a great swing. So why not use clubs that help? If this makes the game easier for someone then tell me what is so wrong with that?

The #1 Reason people walk away from golf is simply because they find the game too hard to play. So they leave the game and never come back. Some might argue that is a good thing, less people on the courses. Sure, that is true. However it is also less revenue for courses, so up goes the green fee rates to compensate for that loss.

Personally I could care less what driver or irons someone uses. If those clubs help that person shoot under 70,80, 90,or 100 (if that is their goal) then good for them. It will keep them coming back to the game.

Do I prefer big honking game improvement irons? No, not at the present time. But let me tell you I have been eyeing up the Cobra 3100's at $399.99 because they are a nice looking game improvement iron. Friend of mine plays them and loves them. If those irons could help me shave 2-3 strokes off a round then guess what? They are well worth the money and why not use them? Isn't the idea of playing golf to go out and shoot the lowest score possible?
Or is the idea of golf to stand on a range and beat balls for weeks with blades or irons that do not offer any game improvement features? Me, I will take the lower scores anytime over beating balls on a range.

As for the PRO's using those clubs, check out WHAT'S IN THE BAG on TGC website. R7's are the #1 driver on the PGA Tour. Why is that? Is it because guys hit them further than a Titleist, Nike, Cobra or whatever? Or is it because they hit them straighter?

Didn't someone win the MASTERS this year while playing a draw bias and fade bias driver? Or does that not count as a MAJOR because he carried two different drivers? Pretty sure he has the Green Jacket and big wad of cash to prove he won!

Same goes for irons. Why do they play CB irons instead of blades? Is it because they like the fact the CB's offer more foregiveness? I tend to think so. Afterall they are humans, their swings can be off just like ours. Only difference is their bad shots are equal to a lot of our good shots.

I say load your bag up with game improvement clubs and go have some fun out there. That is what the game is all about

[Indio]

Rick, I think like me, you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I believe he is saying that people should be buying the game improvement clubs, which I totally agree with. Nice tirade though

["Richard"]

If I were to hit my driver dead straight... 0 yards off centre, how much difference would it make if I put the into draw mode? I have 2x2g weights and 2x10g weights. So 20g on one side and 4gs on the other side. Same the other way if its in fade mode?

[Golfbum]

Rick, I think like me, you misunderstood what he was trying to say. I believe he is saying that people should be buying the game improvement clubs, which I totally agree with. Nice tirade though

No, I don't think I misunderstood him Bob. I just feel that if someone wants to play Game Improvement clubs then go right ahead and do so. too many people get frustrated with the game. Not all goflers have the skill to hit the ball straight and high.
I do not exactly play GA clubs, but I like em! I currently have 4 Wishon 550C's and 4 TNT Grinder Blades in my bag. Since I put the Grinders in, the 7-PW I have had 3 of my best scores of September. Go figure

As for "RICHARD'S" question. If you are hitting your driver straight why mess with it? Sure a draw is a nice powerful tool to have, but when it turns into a hook it becomes a nightmare! There was once a golfer who made lots of money, won 18 Majors while playing a fade. Think about that one for awhile!
STRAIGHT IS GOOD

[Wknd_Warrior]

no one benefits, allow me to share my story

I grew up playing a 2w off the tee. Long and straight (when I hit it), for my age anyhow, I had the big hip slide that was popular in the 70s but I digress...

I played every weekend for a few years in my 20s (early 90s) . I got a hand me down set of woods. I didn't know it but the faces were closed and the driver was offset (negetive offset).

I couldn't figure out how to set it up and didn't hit a solid drive until I picked up the game again a few years ago.

After losing may balls and watching nice drive hook OB it occurred to me to counter the draw bias with a big over the top outside in cut. Enter the sweetest dtriving summer I had in a few seasons, I actually started finding my ball.

Eventually I got a real driver, and guess what, I'm a chronic slicer off of the tee. The rest of the bag get's sucked down and goes right at times as well.

I know a better player, or anyone with a bit of common sense, blah blah, the indian not the arow etc...but the game is hard enough to start with...

The good news is it's been more than a year since I hooked a long iron into the woods lol.

I'm recovering slowly, growing up with a 2w, I never had a driver swing to start with, so I'm getting there.

In retrospect a degree or two closed I don't think is a bad thing, but when you mess with the club too much it starts to mess with the game we all are trying to improve at.

["Richard"]

i can't hit it straight, just curious as to how much difference the weights actually make

[Wknd_Warrior]

Now, and most importantly IMO, how much does it cost for #6 and #7 to turn their left hand grip one knuckle to the right?

I'm going to be proved wrong seventeen ways to SUnday for saying this, but I feel it's my civic duty.

The realtionship between a stronger grip and cirrecting a slice is a MYTH

disclaimer: most of the guys around here know more about the swing than I do

first off, I've played a neutral to weak grip foir as long as I can remember, and until this year I played a slight draw, mostly because I played the ball back a bit farther than most, not really related to my grip.

If I were to go by observation alone I'd say a strong grip is a gauranteed way to slice the ball, because almost every slicer I have ever seen has a grip so strong their right thumb is on the back of the club. This just doesn't work.

The biggest contributor to ball flight is ball position, and the biggest reason I've seen for a slice is "hanging back" on the down swing.

I would also argue that a stronger grip requires a more deliberate "inside" swing path to get to the ball whereas with a nuetral grip it happens more naturally when the arms and wrists release.

[mcnorth]

A change in grip has done wonders to straighten out my ball. The short 11 degree offset driver helps too, as does improved tempo and a much better swingpath.

[byerxa]

I grew up playing a 2w off the tee. Long and straight (when I hit it), for my age anyhow...

I sort of did the same thing as a teenager/early 20's. Bought a $20 steel headed "driver" when they first came out. It as 12* and by today's standards the size of thumbnail. But I could absolutely blister it when I was younger, stronger, and quicker. But looking back I realized with the higher loft I was closing the face and rolling the wrists over furiously to deal with the out-in swing path. As soon as I started trying the bigger heads in the 9* range I had a heck of a time not slicing into oblivion.

[BC MIST]

I'm going to be proved wrong seventeen ways to SUnday for saying this, but I feel it's my civic duty.

The realtionship between a stronger grip and cirrecting a slice is a MYTH

disclaimer: most of the guys around here know more about the swing than I do

first off, I've played a neutral to weak grip foir as long as I can remember, and until this year I played a slight draw, mostly because I played the ball back a bit farther than most, not really related to my grip.

If I were to go by observation alone I'd say a strong grip is a gauranteed way to slice the ball, because almost every slicer I have ever seen has a grip so strong their right thumb is on the back of the club. This just doesn't work.

The biggest contributor to ball flight is ball position, and the biggest reason I've seen for a slice is "hanging back" on the down swing.

I would also argue that a stronger grip requires a more deliberate "inside" swing path to get to the ball whereas with a nuetral grip it happens more naturally when the arms and wrists release.

You can easily be proven wrong but when you "see" the truth, will you believe it?

1. most slices are caused by an outside in swing path, regardless of the grip.

2. many slicers have a strong grip and in addition to the above, they have learned to excessively slide their legs and extend their arms through the ball to BLOCK the inevitable hook and end up with a slice, of varying degrees. David Duval and Paul Azinger are typical. Both had their streaks and both now struggle to get their lost games back.

3. Go to some extremes. (a) place your left hand on the club with the back of it facing the hole and take 10 driver swings. (b) place the left hand on the club with the back of it facing the sky and take 10 driver swings. Do this with 10 golfers. What are the odds of the (a)'s fading more and the (b)'s hooking more?

first off, I've played a neutral to weak grip foir as long as I can remember, and until this year I played a slight draw, mostly because I played the ball back a bit farther than most, not really related to my grip.

A draw is an inside path with a slightly open face at separation. The weaker grip explains the slightly open face. If your ball position was a little farther forward and nothing else changed, you would hit the ball straight, and if farther forward still, the ball would start straight or slightly left of target and curve a little left.

Now, rotate your left hand CW, strengthening it, and swing with the 3 above ball positions. A stronger grip NATURALLY wants to go back to its NATURAL position, which is where it was with your weaker grip (UNLESS YOU BLOCK IT) so the face will rotate slighly more closed. So from your farther back position the ball will start right of target line and HOOK left of target line. A little farther forward and it will start straight and then hook and farther forward still, it will hook. All this MUST happen. It's simple physics. Again, unless you do something to BLOCK the rotation.

Last point. A lot of TOUR pros fade the ball and still hit it far, but a golfer who swings from the inside retains all the leverage angles until later in the downswing than does an outside swinger, even if it is only slight. When the arms move out a little there is some power loss, although in a Tour pros ball flight it will not be apparent. I believe that in physics it is called, "Ideal Mechanical Advantage." The point is that an inside swinger will hit the ball farther than the same golfer swinging from the outside, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.

It is possible to hook or slice with any kind of grip position, however, the probability of a slice inceases with a too weak grip and the probability of a hook increases with a too strong grip.