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Thread: "The Committee" / "Competition"
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09-17-2006 01:54 PM #1
"The Committee" / "Competition"
As suggested, I'm opening up a new thread on the meaning of "The Committee" and a "competition". This was discussed in another thread that had gone off-topic. I'm going to start fresh here with a new angle though.
I was reading a discussion on another golf forum about punched greens. It's clear that aeration holes are not considered GUR. However, the rules of golf recommend that a local rule may put in place by the Committee. The rule says something like "through the green, balls that come to rest in an aeration hole may be lifted, cleaned and dropped no nearer the hole".
Now, I've played on several courses where the greens/fairways were aerated and I've never seen a local rule posted in the clubhouse saying there was a free drop from aeration holes. Most courses just don't care...
In the same thread on the other forum, some of the posters jokingly implied that they formed the Committee and activated this local rule when conditions permitted. I don't see why this shouldn't be permitted. If the group is playing a competition and they also form the Committee then they should be able to enact this local rule.
The definition of "the Committee" as provided by Gary in the previous thread is: The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course. Nowhere in that definition does it state the rules for forming the Committee or who can/can't be on it. Can my wife be "the Committee"?
It was also implied in the previous thread that a weekend round with your buddies was not a competition so therefore only the course could enact any local rules. In my opinion, the match I have with my buddy nearly every weekend is a competition. What constitutes a competition? Do there need to be prizes? Do the results need to be in the paper? Does there need to be more than X number of competitors?
Looking forward to continued discussion...
MJF
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09-17-2006 02:17 PM #2Originally Posted by mjf
Originally Posted by mjf
Originally Posted by mjf
Originally Posted by mjf
Originally Posted by mjf
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09-17-2006 02:23 PM #3
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I think he's asking a legitimate question. You tell him his group could not constitute a committee for a competition, but won't explain why. Instead you reply with a sarcastic remark. Does this mean someone might have actually stumped you with a rules question?
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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09-17-2006 02:29 PM #4
i doubt it. To me the whole "committee" thing is a bit of a farce. Sure, in tournament action, private courses, etc it exists. I am pretty sure if I walked into half the courses in Ottawa after playing a round and asked a ruling from the "committee" they would look at me like I had 2 heads.
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09-17-2006 02:32 PM #5
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Originally Posted by jeffc"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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09-17-2006 03:19 PM #6Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
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09-17-2006 03:28 PM #7
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Originally Posted by Gary HillLast edited by Big Johnny69; 09-17-2006 at 03:45 PM.
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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09-17-2006 03:52 PM #8
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Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
If the player decides not to play by the Rules of Golf set by the RCGA, R&A or USGA, supplemented by any Local Rules or Conditions oF Competition set by the responsible Committee, he is not playing by the Rules of Golf.
The Ruling body will not respond to any query on a rule in a game when the RoG are not being played to. In fact the R&A will not answer questions if they are not submitted by an authorised representative of a Club, Course or Competition Committee. From what I see on the website, the RCGA have a similar stance.
If a rules question is asked on this forum one must expect that the answer will be as specified in the RoG or Decisions.
That doesn't mean to say that Gary (or anyone else) will not try and answer a question about casual golf as if Golf was being played but always with the proviso that if all the RoGs are not being applied, the game being played is Flog.
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09-17-2006 03:56 PM #9
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Fair enough AAA, but I know jvincent personally (mjf's regular playing opponent) and he plays by the rules of golf. I know, I've played with him a few times. So because no governing body organizes their match, the club management is the Commitee? But what I think mjf wants to know is, because it is the guys in the foursome who organize their "competition" are they not allowed to rule on incidents throughout the match? Or are they just not allowed to call their match a "competition" because they are not a governing body? Do my questions make sense?
So basically what I'm asking is, if they are playing by the rules of golf, who is/are the commitee and is it a competition? I hope that's simple enough.Last edited by Big Johnny69; 09-17-2006 at 04:13 PM.
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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09-17-2006 04:16 PM #10Originally Posted by Gary Hill
The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course.
Let's deconstruct the above sentence. "... if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course." As I read this, if I'm out with my buddies playing a friendly round of golf... banging the ball around and enjoying the weather and the company, then there is no competition occurring... so the owners/management of the golf course are the "Committee". I think we all agree on that.
The disagreement comes from the first portion of the sentence: "The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition..." Unless we know what constitutes a competition, how can we know who the Committee is? If I say that my match against my competitor is a competition then who's to say that it isn't? What is the definition of a competition?
If my match is a competition, then how is the "Committee" defined? Who can be part of the Committee? Who can't?
MJF
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09-17-2006 04:27 PM #11
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Originally Posted by mjf
Following the exact recommendation of the RCGA, I/we included the suggested local rules for aeration holes both through the green (fairway + rough) and the putting greens, where the ball may be dropped or placed accordingly. In addition, we have included the stones in bunkers recommendation. In fact, here is the exact text of our local rules for your perusal. Most clubs do this, but, as you suggested, some don't give a damn.
Rules of Play
1. R.C.G.A. rules govern all play, except as may be modified by the local rules below.
2. THE BALL IS TO BE PLAYED AS IT LIES AND NOT TOUCHED. (Rule 13)
3. OUT OF BOUNDS: Out of bounds is defined by white stakes or fences bordering the golf course property. Out of bounds are located on holes 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, & 13.
Penalty - Stroke & Distance. (Rule 27-1)
4. WATER HAZARDS: Water hazards are defined by yellow stakes. (Hole 12)
Lateral water hazards are defined by red stakes.(Holes 10, 12, 14, 16 & 18) (Rule 26.)
5. OBSTRUCTIONS: Relief may be taken from immoveable obstructions such as artificially surfaced cart paths and roadways, hole signs, ball washers, sprinkler heads, staked or tagged trees, culverts not in hazards, French drains, the tractor on #17, railway ties and buildings. Relief – 1 club length from nearest point of relief. (Rule 24–2)
Line of sight relief may also be taken from the scoreboard on hole 18. There is NO line of sight relief from the tractor on #17.
Stones in bunkers are moveable obstructions. (Rule 24–1) The two small marked areas of exposed bedrock to the right of the French drain on #6, are immoveable obstructions.
6. GROUNDS UNDER REPAIR: Grounds under repair is any part of the course marked or declared by the rules committee and includes material piled for removal.
Relief – 1 club length from nearest point of relief. (Rule 25, 1-b)
NUMBER 16: If your ball lies in the marked area under construction to the right of the 16th green, it is in Grounds Under Repair. The ball is to be played from the nearest point of relief, OR, it may be played from the Drop Area. No penalty.
7. AERATION HOLES: On the putting green or through the green,(fairway and/or rough) relief may be taken from aeration holes. On the putting green the ball shall be placed, and on through the green, it must be dropped, not nearer the hole, as near as possible to where the ball originally lay. (Appendix 1–3, c)
8. PLUGGED BALLS: If the ball becomes embedded in its own pitch mark, through the green, BUT NOT IN A HAZARD, relief may be taken. Drop the ball as near as possible to where the ball originally lay, not nearer the hole. (Appendix 1-3, a)
9. WHEN ABNORMAL GROUND CONDITIONS EXIST, THE FOLLOWING LOCAL RULE APPLIES, BUT ONLY WHEN POSTED IN THE CLUB HOUSE OR ON THE BOARD:
ADVERSE FAIRWAY AND/OR ROUGH CONDITIONS – The player may mark, lift, clean and place the ball within 6” of the spot where the ball originally lay, not nearer the hole, without penalty. Once placed, the ball is in play.
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09-17-2006 04:35 PM #12Originally Posted by BC MIST
It's nice to see that the management... er... I mean, Committee at some courses has common sense though!
MJF
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09-17-2006 04:42 PM #13Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
Geoff has summarized the question exactly.
Nowhere in the rules is there a definition of a competition so I believe that I could legitimately consider a competition between two, three, .... players on a date a "competition" according to the rules and appoint a committee from those players.
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09-17-2006 04:44 PM #14
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Originally Posted by mjf
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09-17-2006 04:53 PM #15Originally Posted by BC MIST
Who gave you and gbower the authority to declare yourselves the committee?
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09-17-2006 04:56 PM #16
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Originally Posted by jvincent"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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09-17-2006 06:00 PM #17
I find this to be an interesting discussion to be sure. I find myself agreeing with those who submit that a foursome who are in "competition" with one another can agree to be the "Committee" for the purposes of their competition, and thus establish additional rules for said competition
I also agree that without a definition of competition that would prohibit it, the definition that the RCGA provides for committee would seem to allow for the scenario that has been described above.
The thing that bothers me in all of this is the level of sarcasim in some of the responses....especially referring to Golf as Flog if not played by the exact letter of the law. I've done a search and I can't find a legitimate reference to "Flog" so it would seem to be a made up term that to me is a tad arrogant and could be considered demeaning to the vast majority of casual golfers.
Let's not forget that like any set of rules, the rules of golf are certainly open to interpretation...
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09-17-2006 06:10 PM #18Originally Posted by BC MIST
MJF
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09-17-2006 06:46 PM #19
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Originally Posted by Hacker
Let's not forget that like any set of rules, the rules of golf are certainly open to interpretation...
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09-17-2006 06:54 PM #20Originally Posted by AAA
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09-17-2006 06:58 PM #21Originally Posted by AAA
I don't think that you can account for every possible situation with words, at least not in a form that would be practical to the average person.
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09-17-2006 06:59 PM #22Originally Posted by jvincent
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09-17-2006 07:20 PM #23
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Originally Posted by jvincent
I have no official position but offer my "services," or experience. Sometimes it is solicited and sometimes not. Regardless, we have eliminated some grey areas and come competition time, participants have a better idea of what they can and cannot do. There are no "executive decisions," as I know that there are at many other clubs, and if there is any doubt or question as to procedure, we consult the rule book, just as it should be, everywhere.
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09-17-2006 07:26 PM #24Originally Posted by BC MIST
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09-17-2006 07:28 PM #25
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09-18-2006 03:14 AM #26
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Originally Posted by jvincent
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09-18-2006 10:03 AM #27Originally Posted by AAA
"The Rules book isn't the final word on the Rules of Golf. That distinction belongs to the "Decisions on the Rules of Golf," a 600-page publication produced by the USGA and R&A.
Since there are so many crazy things that can happen on a golf course and the 130-page Rules book can't cover all possible interpretations, the game's ruling bodies are constantly called on to make rulings on doubtful situations (the USGA fields a couple of hundred Rules questions a week). The most interesting and/or common of those rulings are gathered and put into the Decisions book, giving them official status.
On the whole, the Decisions represent sensible attempts to uphold the letter of the law while invoking the concept of equity in situations not specifically addressed by the Rules."
- DAVID BARRETT
Senior Editor, GOLF MagazineLast edited by Hacker; 09-18-2006 at 10:18 AM.
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09-18-2006 11:29 AM #28
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Originally Posted by jvincent
The Decisions are interpretations of the Rules of Golf.
Decisions are themselves rules.
Rule or Rules
The term 'rule' includes the Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in the Decisions on the Rules of Golf.
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09-18-2006 11:40 AM #29Originally Posted by AAA
Any attempt to disagee with this statement defies all logic whether we are being pedantic or not.
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09-18-2006 11:57 AM #30
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No, I do not disagree. But look at the thread re ambiguous rules. There isn't an example posted yet.
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