Changed Swing ... Which is better?

[dH]

So I switched swings again... The question is which is better from everyones opinion for a repeatable accurate contact. I know i"m not going pro lol or ever going to make a $ from golf. I Just want to start working on something that will help me enjoy the game more so what I'm curious is this.

Old Swing:

Much flater MY wrists would rotate as i came back opening the face and at contact it was straight than go back to closed. I'd come back and try and throw my legs into it to begin the downswing. Rarely happened normally they just followed.

Been terribly inconsistent lately but I think it sdue to me missing a point or 2. My instructor is in central america and I assume has much more rythm than me as he's on the euro senior tour.

FWIW I've shot a 39 at le sorcier w/ it. (Front 9) but also struggled terribly.

Came back from a 3 week hiatus as i was soo frustrated was going to try and lead w/ legs more but ran into a friend who said he learnt the best swing...

It's WAY MORE UPRIGHT

Swing 2:

I never twist my wrists I just bring it back and instead of cocking on an angle i cock directly upwards and pull upwards than just bring it straight through NEVER twisting wrists or anything. if i throw my legs into it i do get some more distance.

THis swing tried it today 1st time had some great success considering it was 1st time out but what I"ve noticed is even miss hits I never really lost any balls no wicked hooks or slices... Like I said this is 1st time though so who knows what will happen.

QUestion: If I were to stick w/ one what would you think is best from what you know about golf? I'm at a cross roads here and can't keep switching. IT's lame playing ~90 times this year and being on "game 1" of my swing but I am willing to do anything and i dont want to work / practice in the wrong directoin.

ANy thoughts?

[jvincent]

Honestly, it sounds like you've got a lot of "moving parts" in your swing, which is rarely a good thing.

I'd suggest finding another pro to help you out.

Also, it sounds like you're actively thinking about what's going on in your swing. That too, is a bad thing.

[zoic]

Swing #2 looks good to me, that is how I have managed to get control of my game and hit it well. Using sandals to play helps me keep the body quieter, just basically letting it follow naturally with the arms. I also make a point to stop and regroup when I find myself with more weight on the balls of my feet, I even it to the heel and it just feels right.

But my handicapp is 17, so maybe I am not the best person to give advice. Sounds to me like you prefer the results of the second swing, which should be easier to repeat with consistency.

[dH]

I hear ya but lets get serious teaching pro's make there $ on repeat customers and they all have a diff opinion. I'm going to stick with one of the swings just I keep hearing about solid wrist at impact by a few respectable members here so leaning towards 2nd one as it has fewer moving parts. The other one just felt sooo smooth when I did it properly.

[dH]

Swing #2 looks good to me, that is how I have managed to get control of my game and hit it well. Using sandals to play helps me keep the body quieter, just basically letting it follow naturally with the arms. I also make a point to stop and regroup when I find myself with more weight on the balls of my feet, I even it to the heel and it just feels right.

But my handicapp is 17, so maybe I am not the best person to give advice. Sounds to me like you prefer the results of the second swing, which should be easier to repeat with consistency.

Yeah I had no out of this world hits which is bizzaro world as normally I do. Sometimes good sometimes bad. But today I didnt really loose any balls besides the occasional slice on my driver when I overswung. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm not looking to break par yet. Baby steps... Baby steps... Obviously short game and putting are most of the game but it's just good to know you got a reasonably reliable vehichle from the tee to around the green. Thats what I want now.

[dH]

Went out today same old I hit alot straighter w/ swing 2 but damn my distances are awful. I guess its now how but how many!

[zoic]

Of course they are shorter, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

[BC MIST]

QUestion: If I were to stick w/ one what would you think is best from what you know about golf? I'm at a cross roads here and can't keep switching. IT's lame playing ~90 times this year and being on "game 1" of my swing but I am willing to do anything and i dont want to work / practice in the wrong directoin.

ANy thoughts?

Plenty, as usual. Regardless of what you feel your swing is, compare it to pic two at this link. http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp

This swing is ON PLANE and is neither flat nor upright. Obviously then if your hands are below this position your swing is TOO flat and if above, TOO upright. You can still play good golf from any top of the backswing positions, however, if it is OFF PLANE , above or below, you will need to learn some compensations. So why do that?

A flat swing does not cause the hands to roll open, but your rolling open the hands may cause the flat swing. Throwing your legs forward will do nothing positive so it is a waste of effort and will probably cause you to cast your arms over the top. Forget it.

If your swing becomes too upright, you will have to throw your legs forward to compensate for the uprightness, in order to somehow get the arms DOWN on plane. If you are getting more distance, it is not caused by the leg thrust but by getting the arms in a position where the leverage angles can straighten, getting the club head to come into the ball from the inside, which is the goal of any swing motion.

Since you asked, you should work toward achieving a swing where your left arm covers or is parallel to your shoulder plane at the top, and where your hands work back and down to the ball, on the shaft axis plane. When you achieve this you will hit the ball with authority, but MOST importantly, you will hit the ball much more consistently straight.

With a swing that is too flat, the ball will likely travel a lot lower and be inclined to hook or severely push while with a swing that is too upright, you will more likely hit the ball higher and a lot more likely to slice or pull left. Logically then, an on plane swing will see a medium trajectory and STRAIGHT shots.

There are many theories of how one should swing the club and vacillating back and forth between them causes only confusion, frustration and no progress. Pick one, preferably the “single”/on plane swing and work single mindedly towards perfecting it. You can complete the puzzle by putting one piece together at a time, not by putting 5 pieces together one day and then taking four apart the next.

[zoic]

EXCELLENT, that is so informative. I understand now why I am pulling some drives left (but still dead straight), why some sail dead straight and medium height, and why some are too high and fading or even slicing. Now to fix it I simply need to hit that in between spot more consistently.

One thing for sure is that my driver does a lot more slicing, and my 3W is the club I get the best long and straight shots, but some of them pull left. I have no doubt the driver issue for me is nothing more than the size of the club head, because I used to hit my old driver just like my 3W, but every large driver 420-460cc plagues me with a big slice.

One thing my brother and I have both been doing with great success lately is to wait until we are halfway down on our swing before trying to add some power to it. He is now hitting the ball farther and I am getting less pulling left. I find my body is also quieter with this method.

[BC MIST]

One thing my brother and I have both been doing with great success lately is to wait until we are halfway down on our swing before trying to add some power to it. He is now hitting the ball farther and I am getting less pulling left. I find my body is also quieter with this method.

Brilliant. If golfers would feel that start their downswing at the same pace as they just completed the backswing, they would swing down ON PLANE, maintain the leverage angles until the last split second and hit the ball farther and straighter. Simple.

But, alas, everyone wants to beat the snot out of it, so they start the downswig before the arms have finished the proper backswing, and then they go hunt for the ball.

[dH]

Just got back from the course.

Shot a 48. I read the info you had in the link at stop signs and lights along the way and flatted the swing from swing #2 a bit; also put more weight on the heels instead of balls of my feet. No wrist turn or anything and what do you know was hitting it alot purer than ever; I'd almost go as far as to say almost as pure as I was when I was playing my best mid season. It's so much easier when you don't move your wrists! Now if I mi it just doesn't go far but I didn't have any of those 10 footers left or right, and if it did get airborn it generally stayed on the same line the whole time. When I was getting wristy it almost always faded hard near the end or drawed; not so mouch now.

Shot a 48 but that included 4 awful drives that I had to punch out. Lets get serious driver isn't the easiest club

Also got into the sand 4 times and was just so annoyed.... However the final 3 holes I played 10-12 I got into the bunker and finally hit a super pure one out to save bogey; at that time I realized all those bunkers were really a blessing in disguise not sooo scared of then anymore. The weird thing is I've been here before like 4 months ago its weird how in golf you can go from feeling good to awful to good to awful like a rollercoaster. The ride intensifies if you change your swing.

Going out again tomorrow at 7am for a quick 12 before work; hopefully the success will continue.

I just flatted the swing a bit not SOOO upright I foudn it easier to get through the ball with more momentum. To say the least I had fun again today so I'm glad! I'll give another up date tomorrow when I get to work.

Zoic; I noticed that a few weeks ago but forgot about it again I was doing like check swings w/ some good success. Swing it slow and watch it go ...

[dH]

Played today shot a 50 on the red at poplar grove.

I'm alot more consistent w/ this swing only i tend to send most of my irons left dead left about 50% of the time I guess that could be from outside to in and since I"m not moving wrists it stays onlnie instead of fading/slicing back? Regardless it's not a hook or slice so the ball is staying in play.

One thing I have noticed is I have 0 distance on my drives when I send them straight; I am maxing at like 200-215 I feel like a 70 year old can beat me in distance. Could it be because I'm coming in too steep so there is no centrifigal force? I just don't get it but when I flatten the swing even an inch or so suddenly I"m slicing again. This game sure is confusing!

[zoic]

I am sort of feeling this same issue and I think it is a fine line between swinging slower and sometimes decelerating slightly to stay on plane, or swinging a little faster and hitting a longer shot, but a pull. What has helped me lately is to take the swing back slowly, and when it is time to come back down and through the ball I do not try to add power until I am halfway down or so. This still keeps me straight and more on plane, but I am getting some of the distance back up to 230-240, instead of just clearing 200. I also believe the distances are shorter now with the cooler weather, seems the longest drives are the hottest days in July.

[dH]

I never thought of that; weather wise but I don't think its that cold yet? Then again longest drive I've ever made was in Central America so go figure. Going out for the rest of the week I'll keep posting the results. It's just weird changing fundamental parts of the swing again and again so everything feels weird. Played 4 or 5 times since chaning the swing on Friday or so its getting better feeling hopefully it will start meshing. I think my largest weakness is still off the tee lol. I have an uncanny way of shooting myself in the foot at the starting line.

[dH]

My distances had nothing to do with weather lol. I played today at Meadows. I played behind the slowest group ever. This one lady actually shot a 19 on a hole. I counted I played 4 holes behind them then skipped. Long story short I had so much time I played 4 balls on each hole. I tried my old swing, new swing and the one BC_MIST suggested. I hit alot of poor and decent shots with each but through an elimination process of consistency / distance I ended up with the one BC_MIST suggested. For what its worth when I finally decided on the swing I"d keep I shot 4 pars in a row on the same hole! 4 tee shots One landed 150 out, another 140 out and 2 around 130 out. (Short par 4). Hit the green with 2 of them and was with in 1 foot with the others. Parred each one. What a feeling then proceeded to have some of the best ball striking I ever have. I'm just scared next time I go I won't get the feeling back lol which has happened before. The weird thing is it came into fruition about 20 minutes after I almost just gave up and left the course. I gave each method its fair change alternating all over the place. Each of the swings could work and had there merrits but this one is just so simple and I can't believe the results. I actually felt like a golfer instead of just an over played hack. The satisfaction factor wow! This was with irons. Driver & FW woods are another story but its a start. Just wanted to give an update and say thanks for the link.

Isn't golf fun when the ball goes in the general direction and distance you planed?

[lmh3]

If you can be more consistent in getting the club to impact position with the second swing, that is the way to go. Personally I have been working on getting a flatter swing to generate more power, if you watch the guys on tour, they release their hands immediately after impact, this gives them a little more snap on their shots. Of course, they have the time to perfect this move and timing required to keep the club face square for the split second it is in contact with the ball.

[dH]

Agreed those guys are unreal. I know a scratch golfer in BC who has club records etc and I always bug him to go pro and he always tells me that being below scratch still isnt' good enough to compete. He admits he's a great golfer but claims the guys on tour really are in a league of there own. We're talking top 200 out of 40,000,000 lol

[lmh3]

They are, I'm a club pro, we don't carry handicaps, but I was at +1.6 and those guys are just a whole new level. I've played a couple of times with some of the lower ranked players and they still just make me look like a weekend hacker. Typical guys on tour would be a +3 to +4 on the courses that we play. Funny thing about it is that they wouldn't be able to putt on most of the greens that we normal folks see, too slow and bumpy compared to the pool tables they play on.

[BC MIST]

(1) Personally I have been working on getting a flatter swing to generate more power,
(2) if you watch the guys on tour, they release their hands immediately after impact, this gives them a little more snap on their shots.
Of course, they have the time to perfect this move and timing required to keep the club face square for the split second it is in contact with the ball.

(1) The flatter ON SHOULDER PLANE swing will permit an inside path to the ball and more consistent, centre of face contact, without all the leg drive necessary to compensare if the swing were too upright.

(2) Perhaps it is just your choice of words, but the hands GET RELEASED after impact versus THEY release the hands. However, even if, what is the benefit of releasing the hands AFTER impact? Maximum club head speed occurs when the leverage angles straighten AT impact. BUT, making an effort to NOT release the hands will provide maximum power and accuracy because we all release TOO soon. Inertia or "centrifugal" force will straighten the leverage angles at the right time anyway. Any conscious effort to release, whether you are Tour pro or one of us, will lead to disastrous results.

Once the wrists are set, every effort must be made to keep them in that correct, top of the backswing position. My observations of golfers shows that a huge number let the left or top wrist relax or cup, and most golfers let their grip slip, without realizing it, changing the club face angle. Just look at your grips. Do they wear at any particular spot(s) If yes, your grip is slipping. Don't let it. Firm hands. relaxed arms and shoulders.

[hoylake]

[quote=BC MIST] BUT, making an effort to NOT release the hands will provide maximum power and accuracy because we all release TOO soon. Inertia or "centrifugal" force will straighten the leverage angles at the right time anyway. Any conscious effort to release, whether you are Tour pro or one of us, will lead to disastrous results. [quote]

http://www.pga.com/improve/features/...aruk030706.cfm

[BC MIST]

http://www.pga.com/improve/features/...aruk030706.cfm

The article is interesting and is just another of the many partly correct and partly incorrect analysis of Tiger's golf swing. Most comments made by the "experts", and Kostis is one of the worst, is based on various perceptions and "feeling" that Tiger says he has. Hogan also had feelings that were NOT what he actually did.

Before TW went to Haney his lower body moved way ahead of his leverage angles and when you "slide your hips" forward, then this is likely to happen. This was necesary because Tiger's swing was too upright. If you look back at Tiger's swing of old and compare it to the current one, it is a lot flatter, something that a host of great golfers did over time.(Nicklaus, Norman, Faldo, ...) The result of the slide was the too frequent PUSHES to the right, because the release was delayed too long. It was not a conscious action, but one caused by the blocked body. If you look at the slo mo of the current Nike commercial, you will see far less body movement and the leverage angles straightening at the correct time. Again it is not a conscious thing, but happens naturally, in spite of what the golfer feels or a pseudo expert sees.

The other thing that Tiger is now doing better is that his hands/arms start the downswing moving BACK parallel to the target line first, before they go DOWN and OUT. His arms are now on or closer to the shaft axis plane and with the quieter body, his accuracy is better.

Also, if you look at the physics of the downswing motion you will see that as long as the golfer maintains radial accelereration of the arms, the release will NOT occur. Once the arms lose RA, the leverage angles begin to straighten. what sets the pros apart from us is their inate ability to maintaion RA deeper into the downswing. The implicatiopn here is that if anything is done consciously to release, RA stops, angles striighten and power in particular, and accuracy to boot, is lost.

Having said this, a reality check is necessary. You, me, anyone reading this, are NOT Tiger Woods. We all have the leverage angles releasing too soon and anything that can be done to delay this action will make us better ball strikers. Keeping the left wrist flat and the right wrist bent, as long as possible, is the key, along with the quiet body and the on plane arms. The 3 must work together. If you do this, you can swing as hard as you are capable of doing, and NOT hook or push the ball, and achieve maximum distance and accuracy.

By referring to the article by PGA "pro" you may not be interested in this reference, but, if you want the truth about what constitutes a good golf swing, have a look. It is a good place to start creating a mindset a little different to the BS that is currently popular.
http://www.markevershedgolf.com/inde...owse&pageid=51

[hoylake]

<>

The casting move in the article, the one Tiger is working on, is not new. It appears obliquely in the writings of Bobby Jones and later in Nicklaus, Leadbetter and Haney. John Jacobs, one of golf's greatest teachers, had students of a particular swing characteristic use this move, the students were neither gods nor Tigers. The late Mike Austin, a world long drive champion, counseled the move. I understand that when you think you have found the answer, the holy grail, the one correct way to swing, it's easy to become a bit of a zealot. You really should keep a more open mind, you might learn something.

<>

Thanks anyway but the mindset and game are doing fine.

[BC MIST]

The casting move in the article, the one Tiger is working on, is not new. It appears obliquely in the writings of Bobby Jones and later in Nicklaus, Leadbetter and Haney. John Jacobs, one of golf's greatest teachers, had students of a particular swing characteristic use this move, the students were neither gods nor Tigers. The late Mike Austin, a world long drive champion, counseled the move. I understand that when you think you have found the answer, the holy grail, the one correct way to swing, it's easy to become a bit of a zealot. You really should keep a more open mind, you might learn something.

If you watch Tiger's Haney swing, he does NOT cast.

My previous "closed" mind actually once believed that if a golfer was a great player, he must have a great swing, one that other, closed minded golfers should emulate. Likewise, if an instructor had a great player in his camp, he must also be a great teacher. As most modern teaching is unfortunately still based on what instructors think they see in great players or what the great players think they feel when they swing, the reason why golfers still improve so slowly becomes obvious.

Great players are great because of their inate ability to repeat, in many cases, moves to compensate for swing flaws. Jack Nicklaus impeded golfers' progress with his hugely upright golf swing than many teachers tried to teach and students failed miserably at trying to learn. Many great players like Nicklaus, Norman, Woods, Faldo, Hogan, etc., significantly flattened their swings, reduced the lower body drive and became even better. Jeepers, I wonder why? Watching these players do this and discovering why, played a part in my mind being opened. Add to that the work of Mac O'Grady, Mark Evershed, "The Golfing Machine," etc., and one quickly sees the weakness and inefficiencies of the traditional methods.

One does not have to be a rocket scientist to learn that an inside path to the ball provides the greatest chance for the golfer to achieve maximum power and accuracy. Add to that an understanding of the physics of what it takes to achieve this inside path and one soon sees how ridiculous much of today's instruction still is. One simple example of this bogus instruction is found in a recent edition of a local golf magazine and still taught by most instructors, is that of creating a wide or big arc on the backswing. What they teach actually creates a small arc, (grade 7 math) which is unimportant anyway as most golfers hit the ball on their downswing, and it is on the downswing that a big arc is essential, but they don't talk about this because perhaps they don't know.

Your attempt to insult at the end of your post I find quite humourous. By buying completely into the "names" you mentioned it is obvious to me who has the closed mind, and sadly, with that attitude, you will never learn as much as I did when I opened my mind and questioned the "unquestionable." My last response to you is more than you deserve.

[leftylucas]

Well first off I do not purport to be an expert on this subject or as informed as Lyle or Hoylake but I do offer up my experience in having changed my swing. I used to be the classic 2 plane and this winter I took lessons and shortened my swing, an on plane swing if you will. Here are my results: accuracy has drastically improved, less strain on the aging body. More simple and repeatable swing. My friends are still amazed that I have such a short swing (arc) and still can hit the ball as far as before. I can attest personally to the great benefit of this type of swing and with my first full season jsut about behind me I can say that I have improved by several strokes and I can see that with time I will get even better.

[BC MIST]

Well first off I do not purport to be an expert on this subject or as informed as Lyle or Hoylake but I do offer up my experience in having changed my swing. I used to be the classic 2 plane and this winter I took lessons and shortened my swing, an on plane swing if you will. Here are my results: accuracy has drastically improved, less strain on the aging body. More simple and repeatable swing. My friends are still amazed that I have such a short swing (arc) and still can hit the ball as far as before. I can attest personally to the great benefit of this type of swing and with my first full season jsut about behind me I can say that I have improved by several strokes and I can see that with time I will get even better.

You improved because you developed more efficient swing mechanics. But more importantly, you worked hard to achieve the obvious changes and you have a mind that was open to looking at swing mechanics that were seemingly untraditional, and different from what the pseudo swing gurus profess or some of the Tour pros use. Without the latter, the former would not have happened. Well done.

[dH]

Playing much much better. Wow I have so few moving parts to worry about now I find it much more enjoyable. Sometimes my feeet don't even move and I still hit it far (for me) and pure feeling. I always think of Moe Norman saying look at the cleats look at the cleats. That being said alot of my irons i'm sending left. Dead left like 20 yards left but straight as an arrow? What causes this swing fault most commonly? Won't be able to play for a week so would like to find out why I"m doing this instead of a) getting frustrated or b) aiming way right.

[jvincent]

That being said alot of my irons i'm sending left. Dead left like 20 yards left but straight as an arrow? What causes this swing fault most commonly? Won't be able to play for a week so would like to find out why I"m doing this instead of a) getting frustrated or b) aiming way right.

Assuming you are a righty, you're hitting a pull.

That means you are coming outside to in with your swingpath and the clubhead is square to the path, i.e. closed to the target.

[dH]

Thats exactly it! Thanks

[leftylucas]

That being said alot of my irons i'm sending left. Dead left like 20 yards left but straight as an arrow? What causes this swing fault most commonly? Won't be able to play for a week so would like to find out why I"m doing this instead of a) getting frustrated or b) aiming way right.

Well, I suffered the exact same fault except of course dead right as I am a lefty . What I did to correct that is concentrate on starting the downswing with the arms and keeping myself flat footed. This prevented me from outracing my arms with my hips. Maybe it can work for you

[hoylake]

By referring to the article by "PGA pro" you may not be interested in this reference, but, if you want the truth about what constitutes a good golf swing, have a look. It is a good place to start creating a mindset different than the BS that is currently popular

You don't own the truth about what constitutes a good golf swing. So forgive me if I found the above to be arrogant and condescending, and responded in kind.

If you watch Tiger's Haney swing, he does NOT cast.

Haney has Tiger thinking cast, rehearsing cast. Has it occurred to you that there is a reason? And that the reason might be because it puts Tiger on the same downswing plane your man Evershed recommends but with a different swing thought. This is the basis of golf instruction, transmitting mechanics via feel. Hanging on, which you advocate, trying to consciously delay the release, drops the arms behind the body coming down, it's why Evershed tells you to push the arms in a manner that forces them on the correct plane. Me, if I'm moving a piano I might like to push but when I swing a golf club I like to feel like I'm swinging it, hence the cast thought. Point being there are different ways to achieve the same goal. The reason the Golfing Machine has failed to conquer the world is that people absorb information differently, some are not inclined to vectors and radials and position 57 or whatever, if it works for you, fine, it doesn't for everybody.

Bobby Jones once wrote: "It is worse than useless to prescribe a rote by which the club is to be swing and the ball struck and to finish there. The pupil or prospective learner cannot possibly direct his swing through a complete sequence of correct positions as ordered by the teacher. The whole thing happens too fast to be subject to this degree of conscious control. Nevertheless, since the successful player must have a good understanding of his swing, he must be made aware of the results to be expected from all conceivable movements, right or wrong. Obviously this procedure can result in almost endless discussions and speculations, but that is just the kind of game golf is. To me golf is an inexhaustible subject. I cannot imagine that anyone might ever write every word that needs to be written about the golf swing."

Take care.