Ball stepped on while searching

[mjf]

Are there any rules to be aware of if a ball is found in long rough by stepping on it? This happened a couple of times in my round today. On the first occasion, I stepped on my FC's ball and on the second occasion, I stepped on my own.

When I found my own ball, I'm pretty sure I made the lie worse than it was before I stepped on it. Should the ball be replaced in the original lie, or an estimate of what the lie would have been before the ball was stepped on?

Are there any penalties I should be aware of?

Thanks.
MJF

[jvincent]

By my read of rule 18, if you step on my ball while searching, no penalty, replace my ball.

If you step on your ball while searching for it when not in a hazard, and don't MOVE it, no penalty. As I read the rule, the ball needs to move for a penalty to be assessed.

http://www.rcga.org/english/Rules/rule_18.asp

[zoic]

If you step on a ball it will move (usually deeper in the ground), basic physics.

[jvincent]

Not so fast.

From the definitions again.

Move or Moved
A ball is deemed to have “moved’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

[Gary Hill]

It is virtually impossible to step on a ball without moving it.

The onus would be on the player to prove that the ball had not moved.

In the absence of such evidence, the player would be penalized under Rule 18.

[zoic]

Thanks, I understand that subtle difference.

[AAA]

Not so fast.

From the definitions again.

Move or Moved
A ball is deemed to have “moved’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place.

The rule does not limit movement to the horizontal. Vertical movement is also 'movement' as defined.

The words 'leaves its position' are there to indicate that oscillation is not 'movement' as defined.

[mjf]

It is virtually impossible to step on a ball without moving it.

The onus would be on the player to prove that the ball had not moved.

In the absence of such evidence, the player would be penalized under Rule 18.

Wouldn't it also be virtually impossible to prove that the ball had moved (even downward) when I stepped on it. After all, I didn't see the ball before I stepped on it. So how could I know for sure if it moved?

MJF

[Gary Hill]

Wouldn't it also be virtually impossible to prove that the ball had moved (even downward) when I stepped on it. After all, I didn't see the ball before I stepped on it. So how could I know for sure if it moved?MJF

Unfortunately, I don't have to prove it. You do.

[mjf]

Unfortunately, I don't have to prove it. You do.

But, that's impossible because you didn't see the ball either.

I guess what you're saying is that if I feel I moved the ball that I should take a penalty. If my competitor said I moved the ball and should take a penalty, but I felt I hadn't moved it then it's really up to me. Is that correct?

MJF

[Gary Hill]

then it's really up to me. Is that correct?MJF

No. As it is virtually impossible to step on a ball without moving it, the onus would be on the player to prove that the ball had not moved.

[mjf]

No. As it is virtually impossible to step on a ball without moving it, the onus would be on the player to prove that the ball had not moved.

As it is impossible to prove a negative (ie. that the ball hasn't moved) then what you're saying is that, in essence, there is a penalty for stepping on your own ball while searching for it.

So then... What have we learned from this. If you've already hit a provisional into a decent position and now you're searching for your ball in the long rough and you step on something you think may be a ball, don't identify it. Step on the object as hard as possible to push it as deep into the ground as possible so as to make it very difficult for anyone else to find it. You'll probably be at least as well off.

MJF

[Gary Hill]

you step on something you think may be a ball, don't identify it.

If you don't identify a found ball, you will be disqualified.

[pvs1313]

MJF - in golf it is up to the player to be honest. if not honest, then no point in competing. If a ball is in a hazzared, it is in a hazzard, if you step on a ball, you have stepped on it, most of the rules in golf require that the player be honest, and i hope most are.

[mjf]

If you don't identify a found ball, you will be disqualified.

At this point in the proceedings, I haven't found a ball... have I? I've stepped on something. I've stepped on lots of rocks while searching for golfballs that were approximately the same size/shape. Wouldn't I have to see it to identify it?

Is there a rule that specifically states you must identify a found ball? Is this only true if you are searching for your own ball?

Here's a scenario that I'm wondering if I would be disqualified for. I hit my ball off the tee into a bunch of pine trees. While searching for the ball, I see a ball 20 feet up in one the trees... too high for me to climb. I've found a ball. It might be my ball, it might not. Am I disqualified for not identifying it?

MJF

[mjf]

MJF - in golf it is up to the player to be honest. if not honest, then no point in competing. If a ball is in a hazzared, it is in a hazzard, if you step on a ball, you have stepped on it, most of the rules in golf require that the player be honest, and i hope most are.

pvs1313 - For the record, I'm a very honest golfer. I've called penalties on myself while playing alone on numerous occasions when I've been in the middle of excellent rounds. I'm not claiming that I've never made a mistake when it comes to the rules, but I definitely follow a stricter interpretation than 95% of the people I've ever played with.

You're misinterpreting my line of questioning. I'm trying to interpret the rules the way Tiger does... in an almost legal sense, and in my best interest. If I can make the rules work to my advantage, why shouldn't I?

Am I required to identify every rock I step on as not being a ball? I don't think so.

In any case, my real goal here is to determine if I should even bother trying to look for a ball lost in deep rough if I'm going to be assessed a penalty if I step on it. Maybe I'm better off just not looking for it assuming I've got a provisional in a decent position. By knowing exactly how the rules work, I can decide knowing all the facts.

MJF

[AAA]

At this point in the proceedings, I haven't found a ball... have I? I've stepped on something. I've stepped on lots of rocks while searching for golfballs that were approximately the same size/shape. Wouldn't I have to see it to identify it?

If you didn't know that you may be penalised, would you check to see if it was a ball?

Is there a rule that specifically states you must identify a found ball? Is this only true if you are searching for your own ball?
MJF

Try decision 27-2c/2

[AAA]

pvs1313 -
In any case, my real goal here is to determine if I should even bother trying to look for a ball lost in deep rough if I'm going to be assessed a penalty if I step on it. Maybe I'm better off just not looking for it assuming I've got a provisional in a decent position.

You are perfectly entitled to do that. Just be wary of enthusiastic spectators. viz Phil Mickelson

[mjf]

If you didn't know that you may be penalised, would you check to see if it was a ball?

Moot point... Now I know I'll be penalised.

Try decision 27-2c/2

In that case, the object in question was definitely a ball. What I'm stepping on is still just a rock as far as I know. It doesn't become a ball until I look down and see a ball where I just stepped.

We're in "If a tree falls in a forest..." territory here I know, but I'm interesting in exploring the point.

What about my 'ball up the tree' example? A ball has definitely been found. If I can't identify it, am I penalized?

MJF

[mjf]

You are perfectly entitled to do that. Just be wary of enthusiastic spectators. viz Phil Mickelson

Of course, if a spectator found my ball by stepping on it... no problem!

You're referring to the playoff at Torrey Pines a few years back I think?

MJF

[Gary Hill]

What about my 'ball up the tree' example? A ball has definitely been found. If I can't identify it, am I penalized?

If you can't identify the ball, the ball is lost.

[mjf]

If you can't identify the ball, the ball is lost.

In a previous post, you said: "If you don't identify a found ball, you will be disqualified."

In this case, there is a ball up in the tree that I can see but can't reach to identify. Am I disqualified? What if the ball is only 7 feet up the tree and I could climb the tree but choose not to... am I disqualified then because I didn't identify the found ball?

MJF

[AAA]

If you can't identify it - it must be treated as 'lost' and another played under 'stroke & distance'.
If it is possible to identify it but you don't or won't - DQ

[mjf]

If it is possible to identify it but you don't or won't - DQ

So if the ball is 10 feet up the tree and I could climb the tree but choose not to, I'm disqualified??

MJF

[Gary Hill]

No.

[mjf]

So if I step on a rock in the long rough while looking for my ball but don't confirm that it's a rock and not my ball... then I'm disqualified?

MJF

[AAA]

So if I step on a rock in the long rough while looking for my ball but don't confirm that it's a rock and not my ball... then I'm disqualified?

MJF

No. Did you read Decision 27/13?

[pvs1313]

mjf ,

just for the record, i did not mean to hint that you yourself are not a very honest player, just that it is an honest game.,

i meant no insult to you!

[mjf]

No. Did you read Decision 27/13?

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball

Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?

A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player’s ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

I may be interpreting the decision incorrectly, but I think in that case a ball is presented to a player by his opponent but he refuses to look at it to identify it.

You do have me worried though!

MJF

[manitoulin]

you got to be able to step on your ball, how else can you find it. take the pelanty and run. I don't think it's allow to move your own ball in any way.