Regular or stiff flex?

[Smoothie]

How do you know if you should be using regular or stiff flex steel shafts for your irons? Would an instructor be able to tell you, or the vector launch monitor? Besides just reg and stiff, there are tons of choices for shafts, how do you help determine whats best for you?
Thanks!

[Txxxxxxx]

It's best to get properly fit before deciding on which shaft to get in your irons. A club fitter or the Pro at Golf Town should be able to fit you for your clubs.

[BC MIST]

How do you know if you should be using regular or stiff flex steel shafts for your irons?
What is a "Regular" shaft? It is a shaft that says "Regular" on it. Seriously.
What is a "Stiff" shaft? It is a shaft that says "Stiff" on it. Seriously.
Example: I have a set of "Stiff" shafted irons that were are frequencied to 301 cpms. I also have a set of "Regular" shafts that were frequencied to 301 cpms. So are my clubs "Stiff" or "Regular?"

Would an instructor be able to tell you...?
Very unlikely

Besides just reg and stiff, there are tons of choices for shafts, how do you help determine whats best for you? There are more "Regular" and "Stiff" shafts than there are shaft choices, if you understand what I mean.

Generally, the regular of one company's model XXX shaft is USUALLY more flexible that the corresponding stiff shaft of the same company's model XXX shaft. BUT NOT ALWAyS.

The terms Regular and Stiff are relatively meaningless unless you know the specific frequencies of the shaft, measured at various places along the entire length of the shaft.

If all this sounds confusing, it is , because the shaft manufacturing industry has NO STANDARDS for stiffness meaning that you really do not know what stiffness you actually need or are getting. Unless, you see a knowledgeable clubmaker. And even then, what may be ideal for you should be based on HOW you swing, not just on how FAST you swing, so that rules out a few clubmakers, too. Rather discouraging, eh? Is this done on purpose?

[Chieflongtee]

When my swing is alive it's a regular
when my swing is dead it's a stiff

[MusicMan]

yes an instructor ( a good one) will be able to tell you whats best for you. it all depends on your tempo. best bet is to take a trip to GT and hit some balls in the sim and get one of the guys to watch your swing and he should be able to tell you the shaft you need. if you wanted to go a step further and go for a vector fitting, your looking at $49-99 and its only really good for driver shaft fittings...

as far as stock shafts go most companies offer 3:
- their own shaft (mid lauch (most of them))
- aldila nv (lower launch)
- Grafalloy prolaunch (higher launch)

thats just for drivers

for steel shafts most use dynamic gold or their own mix. that depends on the manufacture...

i would say that most people being the majority would be perfect with a regular shaft in anything... not too many people acctually need stiff... but it sounds good to say i got a stiff shaft

[BC MIST]

Perhaps you (starvingstudent) did NOT read my post above, or you read it and don't believe what I said, however, maybe a little more information is required to further your understanding of why regular and stiff are meaningless terms.

yes an instructor ( a good one) will be able to tell you whats best for you. it all depends on your tempo.
Tempo is only one factor in determining the appropriate shaft flex for any golfer. Transition speed, release of wrist cock axis and club head speed MUST be included in the recommendation. If tempo is all the the "good" instructor uses, then I would disregard what he says. Being an instructor does not presume that he knows anything that is necessary to get a properly fitting shaft.

best bet is to take a trip to GT and hit some balls in the sim and get one of the guys to watch your swing and he should be able to tell you the shaft you need.
A good friend of mine is a certified club fitter at GT and he still speaks in terms of regular and stiff, meaning that he does not know or believe that the terms are meaningless. More below.

for steel shafts most use dynamic gold or their own mix. that depends on the manufacture...For most golfers the Dynamic Gold line is unsuitable as they are manufactured to achieve a LOW ball flight, and a LOW ball flight is NOT what the average golfer needs. The Dynalite line, gold or otherwise would be better as the tip section is softer helping the average golfer get the ball flight higher. Do you know what the "GOLD" in Dynamic Gold means? With the advent of the lighter steel shafts most golfers would perform better with them.

i would say that most people being the majority would be perfect with a regular shaft in anything... not too many people acctually need stiff... but it sounds good to say i got a stiff shaft [/QUOTE]I would agree that most golfers are better off with a more flexible shaft, however, as regular and stiff mean little,it would be inaccurate to recommend a shaft with "Regular" on the label, unless you know something about shafts, so here goes.

The stiffness label on a shaft refers to the butt stiffness, ONLY. It is a point on the shaft, where the frequency is measured on a frequency analyzer. The following 4 shafts have butt frequencies of 174 cpms, measured with a 455 g tip weight, 41 inches from the tip of the shaft. The * refers to what is written of the shaft label.
Fujikura Vista Pro 60 *
Penley Stealth *
True Temper Dynamic Gold *
Aldila NVS 85 *

If the * meant "Regular", then obviously all these shafts are identical and would be recommended for a golfer with a, say 90 mph swing speed with similar tempo, (according to your "good" instructor.) Would it make sense to you that all of these shafts SHOULD have "Regular" on the shaft label?

REALITY CHECK: Knowing that these 4 shafts are IDENTICAL(174 cpms), would you believe that one shaft label is a "SENIOR" flex, one is a "REGULAR" flex, one is a "STIFF" flex and and the last is an "EXTRA STIFF" flex. Do you see the implications? Your good pro or your GT club fitter could recommend a "regular" flex shafts, but to get a TRUE regular flex shaft, you would have to get the:
Fujikura Vista Pro 60 A / senior
Penley Stealth R
True Temper Dynamic Gold X100
Aldila NVS 85 S


If he recommened any of theses shafts, according to the shaft label, R the:
1. Fujikura Vista Pro 60 R flex would be way too stiff
2. Penley Stealth R flex would be a good start
3. True Temper Dynamic Gold R300 would be way too soft/flexible
4. Aldila NVS 85 R flex would be too soft/flexible

My profiling software shows that scores shafts of identical butt stiffnesses, have flex labels that normally cover three ranges, A, R and S, and some 4 ranges as in the example above. Can you now see why Regular and Stiff are meaningless terms?

["Richard"]

Lyle, I'm so confused now! If i want to get shaft tested, where should I go then? If golftown can't do with with all their fancy machines then who can?

[MusicMan]

depee you of all people should know that the guys at GT know what their talking about... most of them anyways (no i dont work there anymore)... so yes they have all the fancy machines and they do know how to use them... im confused as to the tone of voice that BC MIST is using? you should like the info that im saying isnt accurate? or that the info is fine you only wish i went into more detail? sorry dude... just a little confused...

[Txxxxxxx]

When I was on the Vector last week with the CPGA Pro at GT, he based his shaft recommendation on a number of things. He used the video to analyze my swing, then we took some numbers from the Vector using different balls and my current driver. Then we looked at the actual specs of the shaft, not just whether it said 'regular' or 'stiff'.

I do believe this guy knows what he is doing considering he's been doing it for over 20 years and is a reputible teacher.

I think what B.C is eluding to is that don't just judge a shaft by whether it says 'regular' or 'stiff'. It's good to look into the shaft specs themselves.

[Smoothie]

So what can I do to ensure my iron shafts are fitted for me. And can all iron heads be matched with it. Should I be choosing iron heads that I like then add on the correct shafts, or would that not play a factor into my setup, having the heads matching the shafts...
Thanks!

[hhk]

BC MIST:

What do you think of the Project X shafts? Have you tested them against any of the four that you mention?

[jvincent]

So what can I do to ensure my iron shafts are fitted for me. And can all iron heads be matched with it. Should I be choosing iron heads that I like then add on the correct shafts, or would that not play a factor into my setup, having the heads matching the shafts...
Thanks!

You are correct, choose a head that you like first. You can then get pretty much any shaft you want, depending on the bore size of the head you choose, into it.

You can't match a shaft to a head per se, but any give shaft can behave differently in two different heads if they are radically different. For example a bore through iron head, like a Callaway, will have a different feel than a traditional hosel design. Similarly if the heads have very different weights, although that isn't done very much to my knowledge.

[Txxxxxxx]

BC MIST:

What do you think of the Project X shafts? Have you tested them against any of the four that you mention?

I play project-X shafts in my 695CB's and love them. What kind of info are you looking for when you ask has he tested them against the other shafts?

[jvincent]

BC MIST:
What do you think of the Project X shafts? Have you tested them against any of the four that you mention?

The shafts that BC mentioned are all wood shafts. Very few people have played the ProjectX wood shafts. I just happen to be one of them BTW.

I also play the PX in my irons. Like EG says, they are a very nice shaft.

BUT, they have a reputation among many golfers for feeling too stiff. I've never noticed it, but others have.

[BC MIST]

depee you of all people should know that the guys at GT know what their talking about... most of them anyways (no i dont work there anymore)... so yes they have all the fancy machines and they do know how to use them... im confused as to the tone of voice that BC MIST is using? you should like the info that im saying isnt accurate? or that the info is fine you only wish i went into more detail? sorry dude... just a little confused...

Let me summarize what I said based on your points:
1. yes an instructor ( a good one) will be able to tell you whats best for you.
I disagree, unless, he knows the complete bend profile of the shaft. The bend profile is the frequency or deflection measurements of the shaft as measured at the 11,16,21,26,31,36 and 41 inch marks, from the tip. I will bet $100 that he does NOT. Did the pro consider the backswing to downswing transition speed? Did he consider the overall tempo? YES. Did he video and show the position at which the wrists release. Does he know your average swing speed? Does he know the recommended swing speed range of the shaft. If the answer to all of these is a resounding YES!!!, he is a "good" one. If not, I would not consider his recommendation.

2.it all depends on your tempo. plus all the things I just wrote.

3. best bet is to take a trip to GT and hit some balls in the sim and get one of the guys to watch your swing and he should be able to tell you the shaft you need.They will make a recommendation based on what they know or have been told, about the shaft. I would distrust their recommendations if they still speak in terms of Regular or Stiff. All the numbers in my post above PROVE beyond any doubt, that a regular or stiff label on a shaft does not mean that they are regular or stiff. If someone says that you need a regular instead of a stiff, RUN.

4 i would say that most people being the majority would be perfect with a regular shaft in anything.. not too many people acctually need stiff...Answered above.

5. you of all people should know that the guys at GT know what their talking about... They certainly have some knowledge, enough to tell you that you need regular or stiff but there is so much more that needs to be considered before a reasonable recommendation can be made and you need to know what it is and whether they know it, too.

6you should like the info that im saying isnt accurate? I am not sure what you mean by this, but the info that you are saying, (tempo, regular flex, stiff flex..) isn't completely accurate.

7. or that the info is fine you only wish i went into more detail? No, I want you to consider the information I supplied you above and then tell that you still believe that there are regular shafts and that there are stiff shafts. If you still do then I have wasted my time trying to get you to understand something you should know before making a shaft selection.

6.im confused as to the tone of voice that BC MIST is using?Don't be. There is a little grit in my tone. I believe that every golfer who reads this should get the best golf shaft for the kind of the game that they have. I also believe that many golfers are too trusting, that just because the pro or salesperson at GT says something, it must be correct. Some of it is. Some of it is BS and while it may not be intentional, it still smells. You spend your hard earned money on golf equipment and deserve to get the best fitted shafts possible. Because there is a lot more to shaft fitting than what the boys at GT say, from my vantage point, I see too many players playing with ill fittred clubs, and frankly, it just pisses me off to see you get ripped off. It is not my business and it's your money, but if you would just learn a little about the subject, then you would be able to get the quality equipment that you deserve right away, without all the trial and error.

And besides: If you don't have the swing, it don't mean a thing.

[zoic]

BC, in spite of reading all of this and still be unsure about many things, I still find myself asking others if their driver is stiff or regular. It is hard to get away from when it is so entrenched already into the sales of clubs as they exist today. Much of it is likely spin to get the effective advertising that is needed to sell the product, right or wrong, it is reality.

I asked a senior player this weekend the same illogical question, "is it regular or stiff" and he answered to my surprise, it is Senior. I was at a loss as to what to say. Have to do some additional reading to get more info on this, got any good links.

[Chieflongtee]

You have 2 choices. Either this http://www.golfixonline.com/ or go see a clubmaker who has a panoplia of different clubs with different shaft flexes. Forgiveness in irons has pretty much reached its limit so choosing one is pretty much a matter of taste. If I were doing this for a living I would have the same head shafted with 10 different flexes. It is also the archer not the bow.

[hhk]

I play project-X shafts in my 695CB's and love them. What kind of info are you looking for when you ask has he tested them against the other shafts?

I was thinking about irons shafts and I was wondering if anyone has tested them against Dynamic Gold as a benchmark. I'm wondering how they stack up flex wise. People have told me PX6.0 is close to a DGS300 in flex. Others have told me the S300 is more like the 5.5. I'm looking for more reliable measures than "feel".

[hhk]

The shafts that BC mentioned are all wood shafts. Very few people have played the ProjectX wood shafts. I just happen to be one of them BTW.

I also play the PX in my irons. Like EG says, they are a very nice shaft.

BUT, they have a reputation among many golfers for feeling too stiff. I've never noticed it, but others have.

Nice in what way jvincent? What do you like about them versus Dynamic Gold?

[jvincent]

Nice in what way jvincent? What do you like about them versus Dynamic Gold?

I haven't played Dynamic Gold shafts in years.

I find the DGs to feel "boardy" to me. Once I started building my own clubs I tried a bunch of different shafts in my irons and I am now decidely a Rifle guy.

When the PX came out I figured I'd try them and they are subtley different from the regular Rifles I was playing. Hard to describe how really, just that they feel "crisper" at impact. They actually sound different when you hit a solid one too.

Now, when it comes to swing styles, I'm a "hitter" vs a "swinger" with my irons and hit down on sharply on the ball. I take divots with all my irons. I have a hard transition at the top of my swing. I'd have to check my last swing video to tell you whether I have a late vs. early release. All of this will affect which characteristics of a shaft work better for me not to mention the "feel" aspect.

[BC MIST]

BC, in spite of reading all of this and still be unsure about many things, I still find myself asking others if their driver is stiff or regular. It is hard to get away from when it is so entrenched already into the sales of clubs as they exist today. Much of it is likely spin to get the effective advertising that is needed to sell the product, right or wrong, it is reality.

I asked a senior player this weekend the same illogical question, "is it regular or stiff" and he answered to my surprise, it is Senior. I was at a loss as to what to say. Have to do some additional reading to get more info on this, got any good links.

Buy, "Search for the Perfect Club," by Tom Wishon, and/or his club fitting book, "Common Sense Club Fitting." If golfers would read these two before getting fitted, they would cause the GT people and many others to finally get with it. And everybody would benefit, particulary us, cause we pay the bills.

[zoic]

Thanks, I will try the library first since I will be more compelled to read there. At home I just seem to shelf all my good books but never get around to reading them, darn Internet.

[Txxxxxxx]

Buy, "Search for the Perfect Club," by Tom Wishon, and/or his club fitting book, "Common Sense Club Fitting." If golfers would read these two before getting fitted, they would cause the GT people and many others to finally get with it. And everybody would benefit, particulary us, cause we pay the bills.

Those are both good books and the guy I go to for lessons and to get recommendations has them both on his desk.

I get the feeling you're not trustworthy of GT, which is fair, because there are a lot of people who work there who are biased or only tell you what they are told.

I do think it's unfair to categorize all of them though, including CPGA Pros because most of these guys have put the time and effort into learning as much as they can about clubs, the swing, etc., because that's what they do for a living.

I believe the guy I go to knows what he is talking about and how to fit a player by shaft characteristics.

I had a second lesson today and we went over some points about having passive hands and more work on keep my front side straight rather than a backwards C.

Anyway, I went out on the course today and implented the tips he gave me.

I shot 74, hit every fairway off the tee, and was on in regulation on all greens. My issue was a push which has disappeared thanks to the help from the CPGA Pro at GT.

[jvincent]

I shot 74, hit every fairway off the tee, and was on in regulation on all greens. My issue was a push which has disappeared thanks to the help from the CPGA Pro at GT.

Man, your putting sucks!

[Txxxxxxx]

Man, your putting sucks!

I didn't say where I was on the green.

But yeah, it was the first round with the new White Hot XG #9 so it's going to take some getting used to.

[Smoothie]

Who in Ottawa can do this for me and determine what shafts would be best for me? Artisan and the like?

[hhk]

Local clubfitter tells me I can hit shots off pavement with PXs and I wouldn't feel it. Claims excellent vibration absorption properties. I'm sure he exagerates but I'm intrigued.

[Txxxxxxx]

Who in Ottawa can do this for me and determine what shafts would be best for me? Artisan and the like?

Golf Town has the same equipment ie. frequency maching etc.. I'm sure if you make an appointment with the CPGA Pro there he can fix you up.

[Txxxxxxx]

Local clubfitter tells me I can hit shots off pavement with PXs and I wouldn't feel it. Claims excellent vibration absorption properties. I'm sure he exagerates but I'm intrigued.

I played today and it was freezing cold. I didn't feel any vibrations despite the temperature. This is my first season with the Project X's but I've played Rifle shafts since they were available and wouldn't change them for anything else I've tried.

That's just my opinion though. Some people might not like them.

[mysticalwarrior]

OK mY two cents worth
Being a beginner and I mean a beginner why would I go to all that trouble to determine what shaft I should use when I cant even hit the damn ball. SHould a beginner do this before buying clubs or when buying thier next set?