Best drill for grooving proper swing path?

[hhk]

Guys:

My swing has the tendencey to wander outside-in and produce a slice. It's not a huge banana but it happens at least 3-4 times a round. My natural ball flight is also a fade so I know I'm coming at the ball from the outside.

What's the best drill you know of to groove in the proper swing path? I like the idea of "dropping it in the slot". That is, taking the club straight back in a more upright path and then dropping it inside. Problem is, the muscle memory is not there for this swing yet and I need some reinforcing.

HHK

[BC MIST]

Guys:

My swing has the tendencey to wander outside-in and produce a slice. It's not a huge banana but it happens at least 3-4 times a round. My natural ball flight is also a fade so I know I'm coming at the ball from the outside.

What's the best drill you know of to groove in the proper swing path? I like the idea of "dropping it in the slot". That is, taking the club straight back in a more upright path and then dropping it inside. Problem is, the muscle memory is not there for this swing yet and I need some reinforcing.

HHK

(1) Place a shiny coin 12" to the right and 3" on your side of the target line. As you swing down, "see" the club head passing over the coin.
(2) Look at the inside quadrant of the ball, not the back of it.
(3) From the top of the backswing your hands should move BACK, away from you, not down to the ball. The down will come after the back is done.
(4) Go to the top of your backswing and stop. In slow motion, drop your hands/arms vertically downward until your elbow touches your hip. Repeat 100+ times a day. Seriously.

A more upright backswing path is OK, ONLY if your current one is too flat, which is unlikely. An upright causes a whole host of other problems, one of which is an increased chance of an over the top swing, which is what you want to avoid in the first place.

Muscle memory does not exist. You have to retrain your brain, not your muscles, as your brain controls every movement that your muscles make.

The fact that you realize that you need to "drop the club into the slot," means that you will eventually accomplish this move and your golf game will love you for it.

[Hacker]

(2) Look at the inside quadrant of the ball, not the back of it.

If we section the ball off into quadrants then there will be two inside (closest to the golfer) quadrants...which one are you suggesting that we focus on the back inside quadrant or the front inside quadrant?

Not trying to be an ass here, just trying to clarify.

aaa |
aaa | b
----+----
ccc | d
ccc |


Are we focusing on "a" or "c" or do I have this totall screwed up??

Thanks!!

[Hank Hill]

If we section the ball off into quadrants then there will be two inside (closest to the golfer) quadrants...which one are you suggesting that we focus on the back inside quadrant or the front inside quadrant?

Not trying to be an ass here, just trying to clarify.

aaa |
aaa | b
----+----
ccc | d
ccc |


Are we focusing on "a" or "c" or do I have this totall screwed up??

Thanks!!

If the target line is the one that is pointing straight up in your diagram then I think he means "c".

[Shivas Irons]

(3) From the top of the backswing your hands should move BACK, away from you, not down to the ball. The down will come after the back is done.

BC , would you mind elaborating on this? If I understand correctly, when you say your hands should move back away from you, not down to the ball, is this essentially dropping the club into the 'slot'? This gives me a mental image of Jim Furyk's swing which makes me nauseous.

[hhk]

I played 27 holes today. For the first 18, I really tried to hit that inside quadrant and feel the clubhead almost scrape my right toe. Worked great on the range but when I got out on the course, I was getting - horrors - shanks!

So I went back to my old swing for the last 9 and played really well. Not one bad iron but plenty of slight fades. So I just don't know. I guess I need more work and professional instruction.

[BC MIST]

If the target line is the one that is pointing straight up in your diagram then I think he means "c".

Yes. If the ball you are looking at is a clock, 12 at the top, 6 bottom, 3 right, aim for 4:30. (Daylight Standard Time)

[BC MIST]

I played 27 holes today. For the first 18, I really tried to hit that inside quadrant and feel the clubhead almost scrape my right toe. Worked great on the range but when I got out on the course, I was getting - horrors - shanks!

So I went back to my old swing for the last 9 and played really well. Not one bad iron but plenty of slight fades. So I just don't know. I guess I need more work and professional instruction.

Consider this: If it worked great on the range, that is, a lot better than what you were previously doing, do you not realize that the change is working? As you have only hit a few balls in practice it makes sense that you would not be able to do it consistently well on the course where many other factors are in play. This is not a quick fix, but a fundamentally correct motion, and it takes time. One must be patient.

If you shanked on the course it is because your hands did NOT start BACK first, but OUT instead. Golfers mistakenly believe that a shank is caused by an inside path but most are caused by your arms moving outside the shaft axis plane coming down. If you move out first and then try to shove the club head inside out, you will shank. I agree that professional instruction is necessary and my "tip" is from John Dunnigan, one of the few instructors who knows how to get golfers to swing on plane and from the inside.

Look here: http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp From the top of the backswing, PIC 2, John pushes the shaft of the club, in his words, "downward toward the plane." PIC 3. (My words are BACK, as in back towards the camera, and then DOWN and OUT to the ball) You can see that the hands have NOT moved outward as almost every golfer does.

In PIC 4 you can see that the shaft coincides with the right forearm indicating that the shaft is on perfect plane and then in PIC 5, you can see the inside/out path of the club head. This first move in the downswing is what both Tiger and VJ are now doing beautifully. Looking at PIC's 3 and 4 is like looking at a Picasso or a Rembrandt to me.

BTW: John's book, "The Secret of the Golf Swing," is one of the most helpful I have ever seen.

[BC MIST]

BC , would you mind elaborating on this? If I understand correctly, when you say your hands should move back away from you, not down to the ball, is this essentially dropping the club into the 'slot'? This gives me a mental image of Jim Furyk's swing which makes me nauseous.

There is a difference in dropping the club into the slot or pushing the hands backward first and the huge LOOP that Furyk has to do because of his hugely off plane backswing. If we had swings like Furyk, we wouldn't break 150. He is lucky he is talented.

If your BS is very upright then the move back is more difficult to achieve. This is why a "single plane" type swing works best. There are just fewer compensations necessary.

Give John Dunnigan's stuff, in the post above, a look and let me know if it makes sense. If we all started our downswings like this, there would be a gazillion more happy golfers out there.

[Eldred]

"(4) Go to the top of your backswing and stop. In slow motion, drop your hands/arms vertically downward until your elbow touches your hip. Repeat 100+ times a day. Seriously."

BC, as I continue further from this point (where the hands are at the address position) I find the club head is open, I take it if it's done at normal speed the club head should catch up and square up to the ball?

"A more upright backswing path is OK, ONLY if your current one is too flat, which is unlikely. An upright causes a whole host of other problems, one of which is an increased chance of an over the top swing, which is what you want to avoid in the first place."

Do you mean a backswing similar to Jim Furyk's? I have a somewhat flat swing which often I would come over the top (starts downswing with right shoulder). So how would an upright swing would also creat an over the top?

[hhk]

Thanks BC for sticking with us.

I was just so horrified by the shanks that I just couldn't stick with the plan. I don't think I've shanked more than 3 shots in my whole life until today.

The reason I got to thinking about making this change was watching an 18 year old woman on the range one day. Not just an ordinary 18 year old golfer, she's a top 10 junior golfer and headed to a Division 1 school on a full scholarship next year.

I have never seen someone with a more pronounced "slot" swing in my life. It was beautiful to watch. And every shot was a high draw.

I realized then that if I ever want to get my handicap into single digits, I need to swing inside.

Back to the range tomorrow for more work.

[hhk]

Look here: http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp From the top of the backswing, PIC 2, John pushes the shaft of the club, in his words, "downward toward the plane." PIC 3. (My words are BACK, as in back towards the camera, and then DOWN and OUT to the ball) You can see that the hands have NOT moved outward as almost every golfer does.

I'm a bit confused by this. If I'm at the top of my swing, my left arm is fully extended. How then, is it possible to push my hands back towards the camera unless I dislocate a joint? If I drop my elbow to my hip, then my hands move a bit down and back in the direction of my heels. Is this the movement I'm looking for?

[BC MIST]

BC, as I continue further from this point (where the hands are at the address position) I find the club head is open, I take it if it's done at normal speed the club head should catch up and square up to the ball?

"A more upright backswing path is OK, ONLY if your current one is too flat, which is unlikely. An upright causes a whole host of other problems, one of which is an increased chance of an over the top swing, which is what you want to avoid in the first place."

Do you mean a backswing similar to Jim Furyk's? I have a somewhat flat swing which often I would come over the top (starts downswing with right shoulder). So how would an upright swing would also creat an over the top?

It is possible to come over the top (OTT) with any kind of backswing. It is easier with an upright backswing as you are already above plane, meaning that the left arm is above the turned shoulder plane. Look again at Dunnigan's site, specifically at pic 2. His left arm aligns with his turned shoulders. Here, he is ON PLANE. With that as the reference point, the left arm above that position at the top is upright, the left arm below that is flat. Very few golfers ever get below that and yet they still think they have a flat swing. Ben Hogan and Moe Norman had "flat" swings then and their ball striking wasn't too bad.

Now Furyk's swing is so much above the turned shoulder plane, that he has to make a huge loop to get back to the ball. He also has a huge leg drive. Both these motions, compensations, are very difficult to time for we mortals and are obviously not recommended.

Working on keeping your arms on the turned shoulder plane at the top and returning them to the shaft axis plane halfway down, will give you the simplest swing possible and put you in a position to hit the ball the most consistently straight, without compensations. I believe science would call this ideal mechanical advantage, maximum output with minimum input.

Now to your point. I don't understand why your club face would be open
and I don't understand how you can tell one way or the other, whether it is. If we choose as our reference point, when the shaft is parallel to the ground, AND, the toe is pointing up, AS BEING SQUARE, when you move your hands back and down so that the elbow touches your side, the shaft is not parallel to the ground. If after arriving here, you then rotate your body a little towards impact, you get the shaft parallel, then you can tell. BTW: IMO, a toe up position is NOT square. Many good players have the club a little "closed" at this point, which means to me that the face is actually "hooded," or delofted, but not open or closed.

[BC MIST]

I'm a bit confused by this. If I'm at the top of my swing, my left arm is fully extended. How then, is it possible to push my hands back towards the camera unless I dislocate a joint? If I drop my elbow to my hip, then my hands move a bit down and back in the direction of my heels. Is this the movement I'm looking for?

When your left arm is extended and horizontal,(9 oclock position) it is not possible to move the hands back. However, in most backswings the hands start moving up and closer to your head, when looking at the golfer from in front. Long swings will get to 12 o'clock, slightly shorter swings to say 10:00 or 11:00. Regardless, as the left arm is past horizontal, it IS possible to move the hands back, ie, directly away from the shoulders or directly away from your target.

So if you move them back then they will move down toward the heels or at least this is what you may feel. Loking at Dunnigan's pics, it appears that he does just that. Some golfers feel, and I am one of them, that my hands are actually moving BEHIND me first, even though video shows thay are moving back first. It is an eerie feeling, as though I am going to come into the ball from way inside, however, the straight flight of the ball proves otherwise.

[Shivas Irons]

Give John Dunnigan's stuff, in the post above, a look and let me know if it makes sense. If we all started our downswings like this, there would be a gazillion more happy golfers out there.

I checked that out and it does make sense. My problem is when I get my swing this flat I end up hooking my shorter irons or delofting the club.
I think I should be going gradually more upright with my shorter irons but does the inside elbow still need to be tucked against my hip, or is that most important just with the longer clubs?
Thanks for your help with this. I think you & Mr. Kilbank should collaborate on a book based on all the posts on this forum. You could probably have 10 volumes.

[BC MIST]

I checked that out and it does make sense. My problem is when I get my swing this flat I end up hooking my shorter irons or delofting the club.

Keep in mind that this swing motion is NOT FLAT. It is on the proper backswing plane which leads to effecient use of whatever power you have and more consistently straight shots.

I think I should be going gradually more upright with my shorter irons but does the inside elbow still need to be tucked against my hip, or is that most important just with the longer clubs?

The plane of your swing is dicated by the lie angle of the club being used. The angle of your left arm at the top when you use a driver will be more acute from horizontal that it would be if you were swing a pitching wedge. You never do anything consciously to change the plane of your swing.

In my suggestion to move the hands back, down and out, the slow motion move was a drill only for the purpose of getting you to start correctly. You will never actually get your right upper arm jammed into your right hip area, because your body's weight will be moving forward and the body will be rotating somewhat. Just start the downswing with the hands moving BACK and the rest will fall into the right place(slot). I do this and I don't hook short irons because I am too much from the inside or because my elbow is too close to the right hip. You would just feel that the right elbow is going in that direction. Hope that this makes sense.

[Hank Hill]

Great thread, great advice as ever from BC. I had been trying to groove the inside swing but found that I hit more than a few push-slices. The resultant OB shots and tension that followed, made me revert to a slightly over the top swing that allowed me to hit fades that would stay on the fairway. However, that swing is hard to time and often leads to pull slices and pulls, making it very hard to get any consistancy. I want to get back to the inside track as when I got it right the results were excellent, it was just that the impending fear of the push-slice hindered me (you create what you fear - Dr Phil LOL).

BC: Do you have any suggestions to avoiding the push-slice?

[hacker1]

thanks for the tip BC
have always been a slight outside in driver-BUT as the season goes along it always gets a little worst have tried alot of stuff- but i must say after working on what you said the results were immediate
thanks dave

[BC MIST]

BC: Do you have any suggestions to avoiding the push-slice?

Turn your top hand clockwise(rightie) until you don't. Seriously. The inside path means that you are swinging well. The P/S means that the face is open. It must be closed and I don't mean by you as you are swinging. When you start hooking the ball, that is, left of your intended target line, move the left CCW a tad.

It takes months(years) to cure an OTT swing, but it take a few minutes to cure a push/slice.

[hhk]

Saw my pro about this whole swing path thing and he recommended strongly against trying any drastic swing changes. He video taped my swing and proved to me that I already have an inside-out swing. So I asked him why do I have erratic shot dispersion tending towards a fade? His answer - "setup".

So for the next hour, we worked on setup - opening the hips and properly aligning the shoulders. I changed nothing else and I started hitting draws.

I played 2 rounds since that lesson and I shot 84, 82 which are season lows for me. During the rounds, I was incapable of slicing and when I missed, it was slight pulls.

Guys, this gives me more reason to believe that trying to fix your swing via Internet or Golf Digest is a big mistake. Patronize your Pro!

[Hank Hill]

Saw my pro about this whole swing path thing and he recommended strongly against trying any drastic swing changes. He video taped my swing and proved to me that I already have an inside-out swing. So I asked him why do I have erratic shot dispersion tending towards a fade? His answer - "setup".

So for the next hour, we worked on setup - opening the hips and properly aligning the shoulders. I changed nothing else and I started hitting draws.

Wouldn't opening the hips at setup promote an out-to-in swing?

During the rounds, I was incapable of slicing and when I missed, it was slight pulls.

That would indicate to me that he fixed your release (face closing at impact), since you were hitting slight pulls (a slight out-to-in with a slight closed face) and draws (in-to-out and a closing face at impact).

Great job though, well done.

[Hank Hill]

Turn your top hand clockwise(rightie) until you don't. Seriously. The inside path means that you are swinging well. The P/S means that the face is open. It must be closed and I don't mean by you as you are swinging. When you start hooking the ball, that is, left of your intended target line, move the left CCW a tad.

It takes months(years) to cure an OTT swing, but it take a few minutes to cure a push/slice.

Spendid! Thanks BC, i'll put this to work. I am determined to rid myself of this left-to-right ball flight, with your ever useful posts and a lot of hard work i'll get it eventually.

[hhk]

Wouldn't opening the hips at setup promote an out-to-in swing?



That would indicate to me that he fixed your release (face closing at impact), since you were hitting slight pulls (a slight out-to-in with a slight closed face) and draws (in-to-out and a closing face at impact).

Great job though, well done.

My hips were closed and but my shoulders were open. As well, my clubface was too open. This caused me to either cut across the ball or at least hit it with an open clubface, pushing or slicing the ball. Sometimes, I would pull which was the result of the shoulders pointing left of the target. Like I said, erratic, unpredictable. I could never know if I was going to hit it right, left or (rarely) straight.

By rotating the hips and shoulders so that both were pointing in the same direction, I have a more predictable result. As well, by opening my hips, it created a "block" of sorts on my right side that prevents me from over-rotating on my backswing.

My pro also worked on having me rotate more with the trunk of my body and take the hands right out of the equation. A very simple move but something I just can't get used to right now.

I'm just going to work with my new setup. If I get the short-game working really well, I'm a threat to break 80 - something I've never done.

I think the best part about getting that lesson was confirmation from a knowledgeable source that I had a good, fundamental swing that I should trust. I'm sure much of my good result from the lesson was due to confidence and a better mental approach. I walked up to every approach shot within 170 yards with the full knowledge that I was going to stick it on the green.

So my advice is to spend a few bucks and get your swing evaluated before trying to muck with it.

[byerxa]

This summer the OTT out to in swing started showing its ugly face again. Really screwed me up. And when is creeps back in, it can be a vicious cycle; my brain says "ball faded right, need to pull it left". Well, that's the kiss of death. After a long overdue session with the pro and pulling my head out of my azz, I started to get the swing path back. For me, it literally feels like I am starting my hands towards someone behind me when I start my down swing. But in reality they are barely coming straight down. From there the arms and club get on a shallower plane and it almost feels like I am going to hit my right rear pocket with my hands. Of course the hips clear and I focus on swinging down through the ball as BC suggests - aim at 4-5 o'clock on the ball if looking down on it at address (for a righty), or hitting it to 2nd base. At the range today it felt great - easy swings and a good 10 yards more distance with my high draw back . And it has made it back to the course with every club, EXCEPT for the driver. On about 1/2 my drives I "yip" at the last second and "pull" back which causes a "weight on rear foot" pull-slice or ugly duck hook. At the range today I focused on trying to swing towards trees on the right (2nd base) - one swing I would stay through it and hit it great, the next I would yip at the last second and yank it! Aaarrrggggg !!!!

[manitoulin]

swing under a 16 inch object, that would be 8 inches over your ball center. or you could just image it.