New Golf-O-Max page

[el tigre]

Dan, the new Golf-O-Max page on your site is very slick. Unfortunately, I can't access anything on it from home, where I use Netscape instead of Internet Explorer. Is this by design, or is the page still a work-in-progress?

BTW, ever since you changed your home page design I have not been able to load it properly in Netscape either. I hope this is not a sign of things to come - I really prefer Netscape to whatever Bill Gates is trying to shove down my throat.

[Kilroy]

Netscape does not conform to standards and is so full of problems that maintaining compatibility with it is hopeless. It would not make sense to abandon great technology to support such a problematic and virtually dead browser.

Only 3% of the internet traffic uses Netscape. 75% of them are using 4.7 which has been obsolete for years. The current Netscape version is 7. Netscape 6&7 still do not conform to standards, and are used by less than 1% of surfers. It would not be cost effective to support it.
Have a look at this...
http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003...ry/browser.php

The only consistent reason I hear for using Netscape is "I don't like Microsoft" This is usually coming from people using Windows (98% of us) Explorer is part of the Windows OS. You have to go out of your way to avoid using it. http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2003/February/os.php

I get an email about it every few months, usually from web developers offering to “fix” it.

I apologize for any inconvenience, and thank you for your comments.

[el tigre]

Interesting. I would of thought that Netscape had a larger share of the market - especially in Canada. Sympatico (my former ISP) is the largest one in the country, and Netscape came standard with it.

True, I dislike Microsoft (I dislike all monopolies, especially ones that abuse their position) - but I also prefer Netscape as both a browser and an email program over the IE6/Outlook combination.

Of course, I'm not a web page developer so I speaking strictly as a user. A fairly heavy user, mind you - and I can't recall having similar problems at any other site.

[Kilroy]

There are 2 main issues OttawaGolf has with Netscape

1) Layout
Layout in web pages is largely controlled by tables. I use graphics as table backgrounds for the effects that can be acived by layering things. Netscape does not handle this well, and the layout goes askew. I have looked for a solution and the only one I can find is "don't do that". I really do not want to sacrifice the look that I can get for 97% of the surfers.

2) Functionality
Our booking service is written using MS tools on an MS server. It does not like Netscape either. Some Netscape users are able to use it, and others are not.

Other sites may not use these techniques, perhaps out of concern for full backwards compatibility and therefore you do not see the problem often. I feel that as a progressive site, I do not want to hold back on doing these things for the benefit of such a small portion of the market. One of the most frustrating aspects of supporting Netscape is that 4.7 is virtually the only version that is even being used, and it is the worst of all for compatibility with newer standards! For some reason Netscape users just do not seem to ever update their browser.

[GarthM]

No one adheres to the "standards" because.....there are no current ones to adhere to.

The opinions expressed in this post are my own, I stand by them and in no way do they reflect adversely on my opinion of the OG web site and it's minor oversight in not supporting Netscape fully :xxrotflma REALLY BIG GRIN HERE

The only "true" HTML standard goes back 7 years ago to http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1866.txt
by T. Berners-Lee and D. Connolly, November 1995 in [RFC 1866]. In fact the use of images as background for tables is not supported under the recommendations by W3C for HTML 4.01. Actually even the use of "bgcolor" on tables has been deprecated and the use of CSS is now recommended.

Neither Microsoft or Netscape adhere to any true standards, simply to de facto standards that they wish to follow.

I like Netscape, it does not bugger up half my other programs, intice viruses to my pc via email and malicious vb code, but I digress.

As for not updating browsers, it works, it works well, why change it? (Besides since the AOL merger the new versions really suck....)

Just my 2¢.

G.

[fireice]

Thanks Dan for the link I'll be adding this to my favorites. Another good resource.

[el tigre]

I don't want to get into a big argument with you Dan, but as a famous author once said "there are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics!"

The stats you presented were global stats. It is well known that Netscape usage in Canada and Europe is much higher - latest estimates put the number between 15% to 20%.

The reason for Canada's higher usage is obvious - the largest ISP in the country (Bell Sympatico) distributes Netscape 4.7 with its starter kit. I have to believe that in Ontario & Quebec (i.e., Bell Canada territory and your target market), the Netscape usage is even higher.

If you are a Sympatico customer, you actually have to go out of your way to use Explorer - not the other way around. And Sympatico actually discourages upgrading to Netscape 6+ because some of the features on their site won't work with it, so most users don't bother.

Personally, I prefer Netscape 4.7 to the newer versions anyway. I would hardly call it "obsolete" when it is still newer than Windows 98 - the most popular OS in use today.

Of course, it's your site so you call the shots. But I think you run the risk of excluding a lot more visitors than you might think.

[Kilroy]

The stats you presented were global stats. It is well known that Netscape usage in Canada and Europe is much higher - latest estimates put the number between 15% to 20%.

El Tigre; if you have some reports to back that statement up, I very much would like to see them.

Stats from OttawaGolf server:
Page views for the month of January 2003

378451 MSIE
15630 Netscape
22536 other
416617 Total

3.75% use Netscape.

This stat was not used in my original post because I felt a third party would be more credible.

I do understand that those who do like it always hate IE for some reason

bugger up half my other programs, intice viruses to my pc via email

I have no idea what Garth is refering to here, but that is irrelevant. The point is that those who use Netscape do not want to use IE, and there is nothing I can do about that.

Please accept my apologies, but I cannot see supporting it.

BTW 400,000 page views on a regional golf site in the middle of winter is just awesome. Thanks guys!

[Kilroy]

If you are a Sympatico customer, you actually have to go out of your way to use Explorer - not the other way around.

Not to be argumentative, but I have Sympatico, and I have never seen that disk. I do not doubt they distribute it, but you certainly do not need it.

I put in 3 entries to my networking dialoge boxes (numbers supplied by sympatico) and a username/password in Outlook. There is no need for an internet startup disk at all. Unfortunately many people feel that they do need to install this toolbox and end up using a 6 year old browser that Sympatico (or AOL) "shoves down their throat"
All that while they already have all the tools they need to connect already on their system.

[el tigre]

if you have some reports to back that statement up, I would very much like to see them

Last stats by country are old (Oct 2001), but here they are:

http://www.websidestory.com/pressroo...ses.html?id=23

Since the OG home page comes out as gobbledegook in Netscape, I believe third party data would be more credible than your own site stats, which would be naturally be biased towards IE.

I've never had a problem with IE buggering up my other programs or enticing viruses either. Garth may be referring to the fact that many viruses are written to spread through Microsoft Outlook or Outlook Express.

I have Sympatico, and I have never seen that disk. I do not doubt they distribute it, but you certainly do not need it.

True, you do not "need" the disk, but it comes standard with the Sympatico startup package for residential use. Sympatico works with both IE and Netscape - most computer users are not as savvy as you are, so they go with the "default" settings.

I do understand that those who do like it always hate IE for some reason

Most don't care as long as it works. For web browsing, IE is fine - I use Netscape mostly because I prefer Netscape Mail over Outlook.

[Kilroy]

Well, Oct 2001 was a long time ago. In 1999 it had a 29% market share.
Your point is well taken that users of Ns would not use it to surf OG therfore resulting in a low Ns stat.
I do put some stock in the stats at TheCounter.com. These stats are from this month.
Viruses are written to exploit Outlook security holes ( I had a rough weekend)
I doubt Netscape 4.7 is free of security holes.

Bottom line... not enough people use it.

[GarthM]

I appreciate that I am in the minority in using Netscape and perhaps lump other MS products (and my opinions thereof) along with IE (especially email -- ref my virus comments). Much to my chagrin I am using IE more and more -- lots of sites just will not work without it.

That said IE may have more security holes than you think. (I get 1 or 2 emails per month from MS on security holes specifically related to IE.)

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Viruses are written to exploit Outlook security holes ( I had a rough weekend)
I doubt Netscape 4.7 is free of security holes.

Yes they are, however see http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/...al/default.asp -- 9 critical security fixes in the last 12 months for IE. Netscape is not without it's holes either but not as widespread it seems. See: http://wp.netscape.com/security/note....html?cp=sciln

I have seen IE do some incredible damage in the past, including rendering a system completely inoperable just by trying to upgrade versions -- for the sole purpose of installing another product!!! Something as simple as a browser should never have been so tightly integrated into the OS.

Although I suppose given the numbers, attacking the more popular browser is much more lucrative in a perverse sense of the term.....

END OF MY IE RANT.....

BTW Kudos Dan! 400K page views -- impressive.....

Everyone think warm thoughts now, I heard the frost is down to 7 FEET! :crying

G.