Flatline set= same flex across the set????

[Chieflongtee]

Does a flatline frequency matched set produce the same flex across the set? I used to believe so but I am not so sure anymore. According to some in a flatline set the mix produces softer short irons. More later.

[KickerOfElves]

Tease!

[jvincent]

I guess that depends on how you define "flex" now doesn't it.

[jonf]

oh no...i can already see where this is going.

[lms]

You would need to better define "flatline freq matched set".

But if by flatline you mean all clubs have the exact same cpm's - then here is an example - if all your clubs had a cpm of 280 your 45" driver would be between X/7.5 and XX/8.0 and your 35.5" wedge would be L/3.5 (with a golfworks freq chart), and your set would indeed have very soft short irons.

[Chieflongtee]

I mean same frequency across the set. Example: a set of irons at 282 cpms across the set.

[Hacker]

Can someone start speaking English because I don't speak chineese, greek, geek or whatever language that y'all are talking here

[Chieflongtee]

I speak every language except greek. Try me.

[Hacker]

I speak every language except greek. Try me.

Multi-lingual NICE!!

[jvincent]

Can someone start speaking English because I don't speak chineese, greek, geek or whatever language that y'all are talking here

Here goes.

A typical way of measuring the "flex" of a shaft is to clamp the last 5" of the club in a clamp and then measure the frequency that the shaft oscillates at when it is twanged. Kind of like a tuning fork.

The frequency that the shaft will oscillate at is a function of a three things (primarily):

1. The weight of the head.
2. The length of the shaft
3. The ridgidity of the shaft. Note that this is different from "flex". Ridgidity is a measure of absolute strength, i.e. apply 10 Newtons of force to the tip of the shaft and the shaft will bend 4 cm.

Now since heads have different weights, clubs have different lengths, and shafts can have different ridgidity you can see where it gets messy.

Most clubs are assembled on a "slope" so that as you progress through the clubs the frequency, as measured above, will change.

In that past year or so there has been a lot of debate about what the correct measure of stiffness is. Take ridgidity for example. Two shafts can have the same measurement when clamped at the butt, but have different measurements when clamped a further 2" from the butt. Which one is actually stiffer? Which one will work better for you? This is generally called shaft profiling.

So what does all this mean? If I could answer that, I'd be rich.

[Chieflongtee]

Multi-lingual NICE!!

Not really. It's an old joke. Speak any language and my reply will be; sounds greek to me

[BC MIST]

Here goes.

A typical way of measuring the "flex" of a shaft is to clamp the last 5" of the club in a clamp and then measure the frequency that the shaft oscillates at when it is twanged. Kind of like a tuning fork.

The frequency that the shaft will oscillate at is a function of a three things (primarily):

1. The weight of the head.
2. The length of the shaft
3. The ridgidity of the shaft. Note that this is different from "flex". Ridgidity is a measure of absolute strength, i.e. apply 10 Newtons of force to the tip of the shaft and the shaft will bend 4 cm.

Now since heads have different weights, clubs have different lengths, and shafts can have different ridgidity you can see where it gets messy.

Most clubs are assembled on a "slope" so that as you progress through the clubs the frequency, as measured above, will change.

In that past year or so there has been a lot of debate about what the correct measure of stiffness is. Take ridgidity for example. Two shafts can have the same measurement when clamped at the butt, but have different measurements when clamped a further 2" from the butt. Which one is actually stiffer? Which one will work better for you? This is generally called shaft profiling.

So what does all this mean? If I could answer that, I'd be rich.

To the above excellent comments, may I add the following? It is true that flat line frequencies may be different at 2" versus 5", and that is why, IMO, it is important to flat line them at the golfers wrist kock axis, which, depending on the size of hands and kind of grip, is somewhere in the 4" to 5" range. Secondly, in trimming for a flat line set, there is less, if any shaft trimmed at the tip section, therefore, the natural tip section profile is consistent from club to club. If in a sloped set, .5" is trimed from each tip, then it is possible that there may be up to a 4.5" in the tip area from a 3 iron to a gap wedge, making the tip profile significantly different and reducing the consistency.

Golfers should select shafts in the first place, based on their downswing transition, overall tempo, wrist kock release and swing speed. But how many do?

IMS says that some clubs, in a flat line set, would play as an X or XX and some at an L flex, inferring that this would not work. However, this actually shows why the traditional sloped set is NOT the best because, yes, you are playing with different flexed clubs and yet you have the same swing tempo on all clubs and that the amount of force you actually apply to the club as you start down, is the same. These two facts show why we would all be better off playing a flat lined set. And, if you MOI match them to boot, you will have the most consistently bending/performing and feeling clubs that you will ever have. The problem here is that to do this work takes a lot more time and of course, time is money.

I played traditional sloped and swingweighted clubs for 30+ years, but since I experienced Swing Sync's Single Frequency Matched clubs, and now that I can MOI and SFM my own, the difference is very discernible and I will never go back.

Having said all of the above, golfers can play well using both approaches, because, your swing is 95% of your golf game, and the clubs some part of the rest.

[Chieflongtee]

LMS'answer was pretty good I thought and so was JVincent's answer. And so was yours Lyle.And that is why I have asked the question in the first place. I was not trying to trap anyone as I honestly don't know the anwer to my question. But I sure would like to find out. I asked the question on a different forum and I got all kinds of answers. If I believe in a frequency chart then LMs is right all the way if I am to put up a sloped set the frequency will go up as the clubs get shorter. And on a frequency chart the flex/designation will remain the same(i.e stiff,regular etc). Moreover some people will claim that by shortening your club the club will play stiffer. However if you check the frequency after butt trimming and if you are a believer in a frequency chart then the club flex is actually a bit softer.
Lyle if you have a chance could you profile your clubs at different beam lengths and post the results here. I have sent my NF4 to Jim klassen and have no way to check the flex under a load at this point. I also do not have the block to profile with a frequency meter . I am sure we would like to know the results if that makes any sense.

[Hacker]

Thanks for all of the great info guys......the scarey thing is that it all kind of makes sence now

[jvincent]

I played traditional sloped and swingweighted clubs for 30+ years, but since I experienced Swing Sync's Single Frequency Matched clubs, and now that I can MOI and SFM my own, the difference is very discernible and I will never go back.

I didn't realize that you were playing SFM clubs now.

Just curious, what club did you use as your reference frequency?

[BC MIST]

I didn't realize that you were playing SFM clubs now.

Just curious, what club did you use as your reference frequency?

Years ago when I was tested at Swing Sync, the recommended frequency for me was 287 cpm's on a 3" clamp. Converting this to the 5" clamp that I have on my FA, I made all of my 550M's, 301cpms. Recently, I assembled a partial set of Wishon's new 560's and made them 292. For whatever reason, I prefer both the feel and performance of the 560's, however, there is a lttle difference in distance hit. As I have 3 tournaments left and as I trust the 550M's, and know how far they go, I will finish the season with them before I use the 560's much more.

As I recall I used my 8 iron to determine the MOI of the 550M's. I have a spreadsheet that uses head, shaft and grip weight, shaft length, balance points, etc., that calculates the MOI. By adding a little weight to some of the heads AND adjusting the length of the clubs by .1 inches, I was able to achieve a one quarter of one per cent, MOI match in all irons except the more heavily head weighted sand wedge.

[jvincent]

One last question.

Did you freq/MOI match your driver and fairway woods to your irons or did you do them differently?

[BC MIST]

One last question.

Did you freq/MOI match your driver and fairway woods to your irons or did you do them differently?

I just assembled an SMT Encore 8*, Fujikiura Tour Platform shaft and bought a Tour Edge 13* 3 wood, without any regard to MOI. I used Wishon's method to determine a shaft that would work for me in the driver.

[lms]

Hi BC,

Just to get off to a good start, I'm only interested in learning not arguing. So on that note, what cpm are your driver and wood, and if a flatline set is in your opinion better, why didn't you build your driver and fairway wood to 301 cpm?

Does a flatline set not include woods?

[Chieflongtee]

Couple questions.
1)How many players on tour using a flatline set?
2)How many players on tour playing a MOI matched set?
3)Does everybody have the same tempo on all clubs?

[lms]

I have a spreadsheet that uses head, shaft and grip weight, shaft length, balance points, etc., that calculates the MOI. By adding a little weight to some of the heads AND adjusting the length of the clubs by .1 inches, I was able to achieve a one quarter of one per cent, MOI match in all irons except the more heavily head weighted sand wedge.

Any chance you will share that spreadsheet?


Just to be sure, is a flatline set one where the measured frequency is the same for all fully assembled irons when those irons are clamped in the freq meter with the butt end of each at the same position, i.e. the full shaft of the assembled iron is being measured?

If one doesn't want to get fitted at swing sync, what is a reasonable freq. to choose? i.e. if I like the feel of my 7-iron, and I know the freq of my assembled club in my freq. meter, would that be a reasonable freq to use for the entire set?

Does anyone know what swing-sync charges for a fitting, and if they will do one without a club sale?

Has anyone here ever gone to swing-sync for a fitting?

http://www.swingsync.com/#

[Chieflongtee]

lms. Be carefull when selecting the 7 iron frequency. That means your 3 iron will play a lot stiffer than now. A lot of people choose the 7 iron for the wrong reason(it's a shorter club and it's got more loft. Building a set of flatline is actually quite easy.And yes flatline means single butt frequency across the set.

[BC MIST]

Hi BC,

Just to get off to a good start, I'm only interested in learning not arguing. So on that note, what cpm are your driver and wood, and if a flatline set is in your opinion better, why didn't you build your driver and fairway wood to 301 cpm?

Does a flatline set not include woods?

While it is possible to match the woods to the irons, it should NOT be done. As the woods are much longer and the head weights much lighter, woods at 301 would be significantly stiffer than what the longest hitting Tour pro would use and would not match the force that is used with the irons, at the a start of the downswing..

It is wise to build the woods to the same frequency as each other, but not to the iron's frequency. Normally, there would be about a 30 cpm difference between the wood's butt frequency and that of the iron's. In fact, my current driver has a butt frequency of 255 cpm's and when I find two fairway woods that I like, they will match the driver, so my difference is a little more.

[Chieflongtee]

Anyway Wishon does not match the MOI to the favourite iron anymore. The short irons were favourite too often.

[BC MIST]

Couple questions.
1)How many players on tour using a flatline set?
2)How many players on tour playing a MOI matched set?
3)Does everybody have the same tempo on all clubs?

Good questions, however, doing what the Tour pros do, is not necessarily best for we mortals. In listening to comments on TV or in the magazines, my perception is that the pros know less about club fitting that many of us. They get to hit scores of clubs and pick those that work, rather than having someone assemble just one set, according to some set of preconceived specifications.

I don't know the answer to #3, but in some information about Moe Norman, a rather good ball striker, the time from his top of the backswing to impact, was always the same, WITH FULL SWINGS WITH ALL CLUBS. He would be a certain candidate for single frequency matched clubs.

IMO, if all of us were to swing with the same perceived effort, then we would likely all play better, and SFM clubs would be a big part of this improvement. I believe that it was Dave Tutleman who wrote that a golfer swinging his long irons smoothly and his shorter irons with more aggression, might be better off with a sloped set.

Interestingly, I have a set of 550 blades / Interflexx (S) shafts cut to 301 and I just redid my 560's with Interflexx (R) shafts, but also cut to 301, and now my dilemma is, "Which set becomes #1?" as they both feel and perform to my satisfaction, although the 560's actually feel softer at impact.

Doesn’t this single frequency talk make all the “regular, “stiff,” “senior,” labels, even more of a joke?