where does power come from?

["Richard"]

Tony Montana - "you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women"

[sharkhark]

It comes from my magic Q Pendant!

[mcgoo]

BC Mist and Weekend Warrior I am enjoying you discussion.

BC Mist: chicken and egg hypotheses need more clarification. Example;

“Your subconscious will anticipate your all important arm swing and move your body forward to the correct balanced and stable position that will allow the arms/shoulders/hands leverage angles to extend at the correct instant, UNLESS you CONSCIOUSLY do something to prevent this from happening.”

Since usually something has gone wrong when I hit the ball, I must suppress my conscious from doing something to suppress my perfect swing subconscious? Or is it my subconscious that is ruining my perfect conscious swing.

Keep up the discourse. It is informative to eavesdrop on your conversation.

[Started2k3]

If you hit the ball with your 5000 pound car at 100 mph, it would go no further than being hit with your driver at 100 mph (and probably less) as you car has a co-efficient of restitution (COR) of less than the allowable .83.

Not true. Conservation of momentum still holds.

A golf ball hit by a 5000 lbs car travelling at 100mph with a driver head (0.83 COR) attached to front, will cause the golf ball to have an initial velocity of approximately 183mph.

The same driver head travelling independently will have a much slower initial velocity, approximately 148.8mph.

Rough calculations based on:
http://www.wishongolf.com/tech_talk/...ball_velocity/

[mcgoo]

Is this not the physics behind bigger (stronger) people hitting the ball further?

[Started2k3]

Your last statement is very true and part of the reason I run roughly 40 kilometres a week.

There is a simple momentum physics formula that shows that the MASS of the system(your 300 lbs.) has NO effect on how far the ball goes. The only factor is club head speed and that is your inate ability to swing the club faster, with your arms. Obviously, however, there is a reasonably high correlation between weight and strength. But, I have seen 130 pound golfers who can carry the ball 300 yards and 300 lb golfers who are pea shooters. If you hit the ball with your 5000 pound car at 100 mph, it would go no further than being hit with your driver at 100 mph (and probably less) as you car has a co-efficient of restitution (COR) of less than the allowable .83.

Over the years I have played with or seen hit the ball, a few NHL hockey players, who
are very upper body strong, for obvious reasons. All could hit the ball a country mile. In a recent tournament a golfer related the story of Daniel Alfredsson playing in the Royal Ottawa's club championship final, and on 15 hit a 224 yard shot (from the marker) with a 4 iron. Some golfers can just move the arms faster than others and this is inate ability, but, the average Joe can increase his club head speed by strengthening the Type III,(I think) fast twitch muscle fibres, by specific exercises.

So the fast twitch muscles in the hands and arms? I think the original poster would like to know what these specific exercises are.

If you critically examine the lead arm in relation to the shoulders during the golf swing you find that all the lead arm does from address to impact is:
Backswing - connect to the upper chest, slide up the chest to the top position (arms either inline with or above the shoulder line).
Downswing - slides down the chest and may or may not disconnect from the chest before impact.
This would mean that there is very little torque applied by the arms (note that by arms I am talking about deltoids). There is a lot of up and down action occuring.

What do the wrist do? Well according to your previous posts:
Left wrist is flat - so this cannot apply any power directly only preserve it.
Release is caused by inertia - If this is true then according to the "conservation of angular momentum" you could "release" the wrists at the top of the swing and get the exact same swingspeed. So wrist release cannot be a major source of power. Wrist release will affect the angle of attack of the clubhead, later release will cause steeper angle of attack and therefore more backspin AND less horizontal speed. This will have little effect on power.
Wrist rotation - you have obviously kept this little power source a secret because there is no mention of this in your posts. I would suggest that there is a very limited source of power available from wrist rotation. And if you decide to get power from this source you WILL run into the problem of timing your rotation perfectly with impact, which I, and most likely BC, think would result in more problems than it is worth.

So both the arms and hands provide very little by way of power to the golf swing. So what gets the arms moving around so fast - your shoulders rotating. This applies torque on your lead arm which leads to your hands rotating about a point somewhere in you shoulders.

Where does this torque come from?
Hips? There is footage of long hitters hitting almost their normal lenght while sitting in a chair or on an exercise ball. So how much torque can be generated from hip rotation? I would suggest very little.
Shoulders? The shoulders cannot apply any torque directly, with out breaking both of your collar bones. The are static.
Core? These are the only muscles that can cause your shoulders to rotate independently of your hips. And I think that these muscles are the major source of power in the golf swing. If you want to increase power work on strengthening you abdominals, obliques and lower back (muscle balancing). Twisting power (see earlier post for link to videos of sample exercises).

Regardless, golf is a game of putting the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes, so IMO, the emphasis HAS to be on swinging on plane, with educated hands, (left wrist flat, right wrist bent), principles which apply to chipping and putting as much as they do to the long game, and overall distace hit is a function of doing the above CORRECTLY. Too bad it's easier said than done.

This statement has very little to do with how to increase power.

[Started2k3]

Is this not the physics behind bigger (stronger) people hitting the ball further?

I think what BC was getting at is that you cannot "apply" your mass to the clubhead at impact. The main reason is that your hands are soft (skin and tissue compress during impact), and you cannot squeeze your hands hard enough to have a "rigid body" interation and as such you cannot apply the body's inertial to the ball-clubhead interation.

Put simply, your body's mass is essentially independent from the club (mainly the clubhead) at impact.

[mcgoo]

Started2K3; you state:

“Your body's mass is essentially independent from the club (mainly the club head) at impact”

Succinctly stated but something is being ignored in the human physics.

Why do big people hit a hammer at a carnival or chop wood harder than small people? It is because the body's mussel mass does make a difference in transferring force, in any direction.

Is swing speed totally dependent upon strength? Too a great extent, yes but not totally. Coordination must also influence swing speed (watch tennis players). Some small people make up for less strength by having the coordination to create a fast club head speed. I suspect that a ball hit by a stronger person, at the same club head speed, would go further than that of a weaker person. (This is the same proposition as your 5000 lb. car anology.) How could this happen? Because at the time of contact the stronger person yeilds more resistance.

But on second thought, I have never seen a NFL lineman in a long ball competition?

[Wknd_Warrior]

BC_Mist, I'm with ya now on the lower body stuff

A small aside, I marvel at the elegance of John's swing, but he does seem kind of straight legged and leaning out over the ball at address, at least the one clip I have. Although he's so all over it he could make teeing it up behind your back look like the right thing to do. I'm of the sort that doesn't care much about the club after it hits the ball, but if there is one guy on tour who's finish I'd take it's his.

[Started2k3]

Started2K3; you state:

“Your body's mass is essentially independent from the club (mainly the club head) at impact”

Succinctly stated but something is being ignored in the human physics.

Why do big people hit a hammer at a carnival or chop wood harder than small people? It is because the body's mussel mass does make a difference in transferring force, in any direction.

Is swing speed totally dependent upon strength? Too a great extent, yes but not totally. Coordination must also influence swing speed (watch tennis players). Some small people make up for less strength by having the coordination to create a fast club head speed. I suspect that a ball hit by a stronger person, at the same club head speed, would go further than that of a weaker person. (This is the same proposition as your 5000 lb. car anology.) How could this happen? Because at the time of contact the stronger person yeilds more resistance.

I think you are confusing strength with weight. Two people who can swing the exact same club the exact same speed, would have to have very similar strength to apply the same torque/power.

A poor example of my point would be:
John Daly - 220lbs - 306yds average driving distance
Camilo Villegas - 160lbs - 304.6yds average driving distance
60lbs difference for a total of 1.4yds - not really worth it.

If you want to prove me wrong, then go out and buy a diving belt (or two) and hit balls with and without the belts strapped on. If you hit it further with the belts on, then I stand corrected and I will gladly withdraw my comments.

But on second thought, I have never seen a NFL lineman in a long ball competition?

The large majority of the LD hitters actually look like NFL linemen.

The upper body strength for these guys is required to be able to control their hands/arms during the 135+ mph swing.

[mcgoo]

started2KS; I am digesting your last post, which I found to be clearly composed.

[BC MIST]

So the fast twitch muscles in the hands and arms? I think the original poster would like to know what these specific exercises are.
The original poster could also peruse the gazillion exercise books available for ones specific to the arms and then find out at what speed they should done to maximize the benefit to the those particular muscles.

If you critically examine the lead arm in relation to the shoulders during the golf swing you find that all the lead arm does from address to impact is:
This would mean that there is very little torque applied by the arms (note that by arms I am talking about deltoids). The 4th power Accumulator is the angle formed by the left arm and the left shoulder. At the top of a “full” backswing this angle is a very small acute angle. By the time the golfer returns to impact position this angle is close to ninety degrees but can be still connected to the chest. Obviously then, the extension of the leverage angle adds to the club head speed. (See page 73, “The Golfing Machine” by Homer Kelly for pictures and further details.)

What do the wrist do? Well according to your previous posts:
Left wrist is flat - so this cannot apply any power directly only preserve it. NOT TRUE. You are making incorrect assumptions. As the backswing unfolds, the left wrist kocks. (Power Accumulator #2) It moves from a neutral position to a kocked position, the amount of which is greatly dependent on the golfer’s flexibility. This is another leverage angle that when straightened back to a neutral position at impact, greatly contributes to the club head speed. Whether kocked or neutral, the left wrist can be flat. Note: the left wrist NEVER uncocks.

The right wrist bends backwards again, the amount depends on flexibility. At impact the right wrist is still bent, the amount is less than it was at the top of the backswing, but it is still bent. Your “assumption,” to try to prove your point was that once flat and bent, they never moved again. C’mon here.

Release is caused by inertia - If this is true then according to the "conservation of angular momentum" you could "release" the wrists at the top of the swing and get the exact same swingspeed. So wrist release cannot be a major source of power.
NOT TRUE. The speed at which the wrists release depends on a few things, but if the golfer maintains radial accereration until late in the downswing, club head speed will be high. As soon as the golfer begins to release the wrists from the top, radial acceleration no longer exists and power is diminished.

Wrist release will affect the angle of attack of the clubhead, later release will cause
steeper angle of attack and therefore more backspin AND less horizontal speed. Not sure. If the release is late, then presumably the hands are ahead of the ball at impact, which in turn, hoods the club face,ie., decreases the loft. Since loft is the main determinant of trajectory and backspin, why would there be more backspin? Does your 6 iron not spin less than your 9 iron.

Wrist rotation - you have obviously kept this little power source a secret because there is no mention of this in your posts. I would suggest that there is a very limited source of power available from wrist rotation. And if you decide to get power from this source you WILL run into the problem of timing your rotation perfectly with impact, which I, and most likely BC, think would result in more problems than it is worth.
No-one in the world can time a conscious rotation of the arms/hands package and hit the ball consistently straight. This was not mentioned because it is not worth mentioning, even though the recent edition of “GOLF” magazine suggests between the covers that one should do this. How stupid!!! Just what golfers need.

So both the arms and hands provide very little by way of power to the golf swing. Absolutely incorrect.

Where does this torque come from?
Hips? There is footage of long hitters hitting almost their normal lenght while sitting in a chair or on an exercise ball. So how much torque can be generated from hip rotation? I would suggest very little. We agree.

Shoulders? The shoulders cannot apply any torque directly, with out breaking both of your collar bones. The are static. We agree.

Core? These are the only muscles that can cause your shoulders to rotate independently of your hips. And I think that these muscles are the major source of power in the golf swing. If you want to increase power work on strengthening you abdominals, obliques and lower back (muscle balancing). Twisting power (see earlier post for link to videos of sample exercises). You have got to be kidding! Do you really mean that to hit the ball far golfers should spin the parts of the body from below the shoulders to above the hips? Even if we could, explain how a horizontal rotation of the “core” can cause a vertical(almost) motion of the arms/hands, back to the ball. This cannot happen. Impossible. Or perhaps you believe that gravity is a factor in the equation? If you think the hands/arms do NOT contribute any power to the golf swing then why not attach the club to your belly button and spin the core?

Simulate or imagine this. You right wrist is in a cast. Your left wrist is in a cast. Your right arm from the wrist to the shoulder is in a cast. Obviously then, these joints cannot bend, at all! Now swing the club by spinning the core and imagine just how far the ball will go, without any leverage angles in the arms. 30 to 40 yards. Tops.

A golf ball hit by a 5000 lbs car travelling at 100mph with a driver head (0.83 COR) attached to front, will cause the golf ball to have an initial velocity of approximately 183mph. The same driver head travelling independently will have a much slower initial velocity, approximately 148.8mph.
The point of my comment was to state that the mass of the golfer is NOT a factor in how far the ball goes. When I referred to a 5000 lb car, I was apparently unclear in what I meant. If I mount a 200 g club heads, COR of .83 on my car, and drive it into the ball at 100 mph, the ball’s distance hit would not be significantly different that if hit by a 130 or a 300 lb golfer. I was NOT suddenly changing the 200 g club head into a 5000 lb one, as you assumed.

Reality check here. Of the 4 power accumulators, the leverage angle formed at the right elbow is the most powerful, by far. The forearm muscles are high speed muscles and when the straightening of this right elbow joint occurs, at the last split second, the built up power is transferred to the ball.

[BC MIST]

Since usually something has gone wrong when I hit the ball, I must suppress my conscious from doing something to suppress my perfect swing subconscious? Or is it my subconscious that is ruining my perfect [B]conscious [/B

Yes! Yes!
Sorry, but right now you do not have a perfect golf swing but you have a subconscious golf swing, one that if I could shut your conscious mind down, would just swing the club. If you have practiced an incorrect swing motion by say, spinning your hips, driving your legs, rotating your forearms, "spinning your core," or whatever, YOU OWN IT. It may not be pretty or pretty efficient, but its yours.The result of your subconscious swing is that you score in the mid nineties, let's say.

To improve you have to change your swing motion and practice one that has the correct sequnce of movements that project the ball straight. To achieve this you have to practice CORRECTLY by swinging in slow motion and to static positions, and by hitting 1000's of golf balls. In time this new swing motion will become natural or subconscious. The new programme will eventually override the old, but not without a struggle and a lot of backward steps and discouragement.

The true test of how subconscious your new swing is will be shown when you use a Clear Key when you swing. If the shot is pure, you have got it. How long does it take? "It takes as long as it takes." Carey Mumford. Or, as many here do, I could go buy some new golf clubs. That would improve my game.

Recently I made some conscious swing changes and played conscious golf for 108 holes and of those 108 holes I hit 93 of them in regulation, and on 4 different golf courses. On Friday I played in a tournament, played awful and score 84, and yesterday I also played poorly and was 76. This shows that I am on the right track in trying to hit the ball better, but that it is far from being subconscious, yet. The key now is to persevere and continue working on the same thing AND in the use of my Clear Key.

Hope this makes some sense.

["Richard"]

lyle, where do you get your info/theory? Is it just comon sense or do you do a lot of reading? If so, how do you know the stuff you are reading is right? I'm sure there are many conflicting views when it comes to the golf swing

[hoylake]

In an inefficient golf swing, power is either not accumulated or discharged early or both. In terms of a thought that might be helpful, there is one from Hal Sutton -- feel like you are getting all your clubhead speed one inch behind the ball. Do not do anything, swing hard, hit etc until you sense the clubhead is one inch behind the ball. At that point in the swing -- and only at that point, one inch behind the ball -try to swing hard, turn on the power; not just with your arms, it is what Bobby Jones called the "powerful wrench" through impact, the legs and body core firm up as the arms swing and unleash the stored power. From here hit through the ball and out with all you've got.

The thought is counter-intuitive but can address a multitude of technical sins. A variant is the thought that in the golf swing there can only be one fast move, it needs to be at impact. Same thing. If you play well but struggle for distance you might be pleasantly suprised...

[Started2k3]

So the fast twitch muscles in the hands and arms? I think the original poster would like to know what these specific exercises are.
The original poster could also peruse the gazillion exercise books available for ones specific to the arms and then find out at what ........

Still digesting, but I will reply.

By the way, these are my favourite threads.

[BC MIST]

lyle, where do you get your info/theory? Is it just comon sense or do you do a lot of reading? If so, how do you know the stuff you are reading is right? I'm sure there are many conflicting views when it comes to the golf swing

I have written this before but modern golf instruction is usually based on perception and feeling.That is why there are so many incorrect theories about how to develop a golf swing and why golfers improve so slowly with most NEVER reaching their true potential.

As I put more faith in things more scientific or mathematical, my first exposure to something closer to the truth was "The Golfing Machine," by Homer Kelly, about 30 years ago. Frankly, I understood very little of it, at the time. Then came Mark Evershed's work about 12 or 13 years ago, and then Jack Keuykendal and his "Golf Reform is at Hand," video and book. Jack used momentum physics formulae and proved, at least to me, that club head speed comes primarily from the hands/arms package, and not from the body, as we have been formerly taught by the "pseudo" experts. More Mark and more "The Golfing Machine," - I actually understood more of it this time.

Lastly, once you overcome the brainwashing that traditional instruction does to you, (turn your shoulders, slide the hips, shift your weight and all that stuff) one just realizes if I move the arms correctly, have a square setup and a good grip, most of the rest just naturally happens and without conscious thought, and conscious thought, er, incorrect conscious thought, is what does most golfers in.

I have preached the importance of the "flat left wrist, bent right wrist," idea for a long time. If you can perfrom this motion on simple chips and pitches, then doing the same on a longer swing is very, very easy. However, 90+% of the golfers I see, let the left hand bend backwards and the right flatten, coming through the ball. Master a correct mini swing first and the rest is a piece of cake.

[Started2k3]

NOTHING IN THE FOLLOWING IS MEANT TO BE A PERSONAL ATTACK.


So just to confirm (I have not read the book) Homer’s Power Accumulators are:
1) the right arm (folding/straightening),
2) left wrist (cocking),
3) hand action (turn and rolling) and
4) left arm angle to chest.
Is this basically correct?


A golf ball hit by a 5000 lbs car travelling at 100mph with a driver head (0.83 COR) attached to front, will cause the golf ball to have an initial velocity of approximately 183mph. The same driver head travelling independently will have a much slower initial velocity, approximately 148.8mph.
The point of my comment was to state that the mass of the golfer is NOT a factor in how far the ball goes. When I referred to a 5000 lb car, I was apparently unclear in what I meant. If I mount a 200 g club heads, COR of .83 on my car, and drive it into the ball at 100 mph, the ball’s distance hit would not be significantly different that if hit by a 130 or a 300 lb golfer. I was NOT suddenly changing the 200 g club head into a 5000 lb one, as you assumed.
See my earlier response to one of the other posters. We are actually in agreement.

So the fast twitch muscles in the hands and arms? I think the original poster would like to know what these specific exercises are.
The original poster could also peruse the gazillion exercise books available for ones specific to the arms and then find out at what speed they should done to maximize the benefit to the those particular muscles.
That is the problem - there are a gazillion books.

If you critically examine the lead arm in relation to the shoulders during the golf swing you find that all the lead arm does from address to impact is:
This would mean that there is very little torque applied by the arms (note that by arms I am talking about deltoids). The 4th power Accumulator is the angle formed by the left arm and the left shoulder. At the top of a “full” backswing this angle is a very small acute angle. By the time the golfer returns to impact position this angle is close to ninety degrees but can be still connected to the chest. Obviously then, the extension of the leverage angle adds to the club head speed. (See page 73, “The Golfing Machine” by Homer Kelly for pictures and further details.)
My first problem with “the 4th power accumulator” is that these deltoid muscles are quite weak. A reasonably strong adult male would be able to lift about 45-55lbs (lateral raises) which is not very much. My second problem is that this angle is expanded by the rotation of the shoulders. Experiment: Get a drill and a door or cupboard hinge (reasonably loose); attach one of the ends of the hinge to the tip of the drill; get the drill spinning but don’t “gun it” immediately let the rpms build up; what you should see is the hinge straightening out (so long as you have put it on the correct way and there was an acute angle between the hinge parts to begin with). This is exactly what is happening to your lead arm during the downswing, you do not make this happen. Your lead arm does not get in line with the shoulders because it is connected to your other arm creating a triangle (or quadrilateral if you include a bend in the right elbow).

What do the wrist do? Well according to your previous posts:
Left wrist is flat - so this cannot apply any power directly only preserve it. NOT TRUE. You are making incorrect assumptions. As the backswing unfolds, the left wrist kocks. (Power Accumulator #2) It moves from a neutral position to a kocked position, the amount of which is greatly dependent on the golfer’s flexibility. This is another leverage angle that when straightened back to a neutral position at impact, greatly contributes to the club head speed. Whether kocked or neutral, the left wrist can be flat. Note: the left wrist NEVER uncocks.
For the left wrist do you mean: Kocked = abduction? If so then I mainly agree.

The right wrist bends backwards again, the amount depends on flexibility. At impact the right wrist is still bent, the amount is less than it was at the top of the backswing, but it is still bent. Your “assumption,” to try to prove your point was that once flat and bent, they never moved again. C’mon here.
When you grip the golf club, I believe, that a person’s hands/wrists become “connected” – the movements of one wrist/forearm will affect the movements of the other (and vice versa). Therefore you need only describe the actions of one wrist and the other wrist can be inferred. Note: I find that the left wrist is a little easier to describe.

Release is caused by inertia - If this is true then according to the "conservation of angular momentum" you could "release" the wrists at the top of the swing and get the exact same swingspeed. So wrist release cannot be a major source of power.
NOT TRUE. The speed at which the wrists release depends on a few things, but if the golfer maintains radial accereration until late in the downswing, club head speed will be high. As soon as the golfer begins to release the wrists from the top, radial acceleration no longer exists and power is diminished.
The radial acceleration (angular acceleration) is caused by extension of the right arm, which moves the left arm from an acute angle to a 90° angle.


Wrist release will affect the angle of attack of the clubhead, later release will cause
steeper angle of attack and therefore more backspin AND less horizontal speed. Not sure. If the release is late, then presumably the hands are ahead of the ball at impact, which in turn, hoods the club face,ie., decreases the loft. Since loft is the main determinant of trajectory and backspin, why would there be more backspin? Does your 6 iron not spin less than your 9 iron.
Of course my 6i spins less than my 9i, but depending on how you hit the SAME club you can cause the ball to spin more or less. See Figure 1, more torque and therefore backspin is generated from the red iron than the blue iron. I will hopefully not have to get into the physics behind this. I agree that the red wedge will have a slightly lower initial trajectory, but keep in mind that it is the spin of the ball that will keep it in the air longer.

Here is a great picture of Tiger hitting the ball (Figure 2). http://grouchygolf.blogspot.com/2004...ion-rules.html
Guess the club.
7 IRON! It looks more like a 3 iron.

Wrist rotation - you have obviously kept this little power source a secret because there is no mention of this in your posts. I would suggest that there is a very limited source of power available from wrist rotation. And if you decide to get power from this source you WILL run into the problem of timing your rotation perfectly with impact, which I, and most likely BC, think would result in more problems than it is worth.
No-one in the world can time a conscious rotation of the arms/hands package and hit the ball consistently straight. This was not mentioned because it is not worth mentioning, even though the recent edition of “GOLF” magazine suggests between the covers that one should do this. How stupid!!! Just what golfers need.
Then we are in agreement.

So both the arms and hands provide very little by way of power to the golf swing. [B]Absolutely incorrect.
This is exactly where we differ in opinion.

Where does this torque come from?
Hips? There is footage of long hitters hitting almost their normal lenght while sitting in a chair or on an exercise ball. So how much torque can be generated from hip rotation? I would suggest very little. We agree. Good.

Shoulders? The shoulders cannot apply any torque directly, with out breaking both of your collar bones. The are static. We agree.
I would just like to confirm that we do. When I am talking about shoulders I am referring to any rolling or straightening of the shoulders. The main idea about my thoughts on where the power comes from is that how fast you can rotate your shoulders around an axis will determine the majority of your clubhead speed and hence power. Are we still in agreement?


Core? These are the only muscles that can cause your shoulders to rotate independently of your hips. And I think that these muscles are the major source of power in the golf swing. If you want to increase power work on strengthening you abdominals, obliques and lower back (muscle balancing). Twisting power (see earlier post for link to videos of sample exercises). You have got to be kidding! Do you really mean that to hit the ball far golfers should spin the parts of the body from below the shoulders to above the hips?
No.


Even if we could, explain how a horizontal rotation of the “core” can cause a vertical(almost) motion of the arms/hands, back to the ball. This cannot happen. Impossible. Or perhaps you believe that gravity is a factor in the equation?
No.

If you think the hands/arms do NOT contribute any power to the golf swing then why not attach the club to your belly button and spin the core?
You have missed my point. See below.

Simulate or imagine this. You right wrist is in a cast. Your left wrist is in a cast. Your right arm from the wrist to the shoulder is in a cast. Obviously then, these joints cannot bend, at all! Now swing the club by spinning the core and imagine just how far the ball will go, without any leverage angles in the arms. 30 to 40 yards. Tops.
I would argue that you would be able to get the major part of your clubhead speed in this experiment. This is exactly where we differ.


Reality check here. Of the 4 power accumulators, the leverage angle formed at the right elbow is the most powerful, by far. The forearm muscles are high speed muscles and when the straightening of this right elbow joint occurs, at the last split second, the built up power is transferred to the ball.
In many other posts you have stated that it is almost impossible to “time” anything in the golf swing because it happens too fast (with this we agree). Then I see this? I now have to subconsciously straighten my right arm to get the most power out of my swing and time it correctly. So the way to increase the power in you golf swing is to workout the tricept on your lag arm.

Try this experiment (don't think about it actually try it). Set up for your golf swing. Take your lag hand off the club and hold it up by your lag shoulder and keep it there (like a praying mantis). Now swing with only your lead arm. If you do it correctly you find two things: (1) accuracy sucks *****, and more importantly (2) you are able to hit the ball quite a good distance when you do make good contact. How can the leverage angle of the lag elbow be a power source if it is not even touching the club?

Now you can try variants of this experiment like: keeping your lead wrist in the neutral position throughout the backswing and downswing (should find very little power difference), and try it only with the lag hand holding the golf club (should find that accuracy actually increases but power diminishes).


My theory on power in the golf swing:
Rotation of the shoulders is the major source of power. The faster you can rotate your shoulders the faster your clubhead speed will be. The major way to increase your rotation speed is to work on increasing the power of the core muscles specific to rotation (1000 straight sit-ups will do sweet FA). Note that the shoulders do not have to rotate very fast, approximately 10 – 15 mph to get clubhead speed in the order of 100 mph.

The role of the arms/wrists is to provide control and accuracy. The lead arm gets pulled to 90°, and the right arm gets straightened by the centripetal and centrifugal forces from the shoulders rotating. The wrists are allowed to release from the kocked position by the forearm muscles, but the aforementioned forces cause the actual action of straightening.

Unfortunately I do not have the resources to test the theory, but I have thought of one method to test it.



I have read some of Jack’s articles on Scigolf, and found that he seemed to be making logical fallacy of “questionable cause”, specifically “ignoring a common cause” and “confusing cause and effect”. Just because the arm/wrist positions are changing at the same time as acceleration occurs, does not actually mean that they are the cause of the acceleration.
(see http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ )

[Started2k3]

Forgot to attach pictures.

[BC MIST]

It would be interesting to see the responses on any of "The Golfing Machine" forums to your suggestion that power comes from shoulder rotation and NOT from Homer's 4 power accumulators. I would agree that if I was capable of rotating my shoulders at a good clip, I would be able to incease my distance a little, however, to do this without the aforemention 4 playing a major role in the equation would be tough. Because the shoulders and the club shaft would move on very different plane angles, the rotation of the shoulders would cause on over the top swing, UNLESS you have trained the arms to come down on the shaft axis plane, independently of the shoulders. Ben Hogan and Moe Norman are interesting examples of doing all of this correctly, but feeling it differently. Hogan turned the left hip left, but he had a huge arm/hands drop into the "slot," while Moe tried to put his hands in his back right hip pocket, but had a similar lower body movement as Hogan's.

The radial acceleration (angular acceleration) is caused by extension of the right arm, which moves the left arm from an acute angle to a 90° angle.There is an interesting section on radial acceleration in Tom Wishon's new clubmaking book when he talks of the importance of knowing the golfers release habit. There is no mention of the right arm straightening, but only of the hands accelerating from the top. when the hands slow down, release starts and part of the release is the right arm straightening. However, the right arm straightening as with the other power accumulators shoiuld never be done consciously. This is why I like Mark Evershed's and John Dunnigan's approach of emphasing theat the arms must be on a particular plane and when this happens everything else happens efficiently.

I would argue that you would be able to get the major part of your clubhead speed in this experiment. This is exactly where we differ.
If we could come up with a cast versus no cast experiment I would wager a significant amount of money that the distance hit by a cast swing would be a very small fraction of the one without.

Good thread. Interesting ideas shared. Many readers will probably say, "What the hell are these guys talking about?" Regardless, you are still going to rotate your shoulders and I am going to swing my arms down on plane, and at the end of the day we are both ging to enjoy playing this crazy game as much as anyone.

[Riddell]

i feel most of my power comes from accelerating threw the ball, and wrapping the club around the shoulders

[Hank Hill]

Some golfers can just move the arms faster than others and this is inate ability, but, the average Joe can increase his club head speed by strengthening the Type III,(I think) fast twitch muscle fibres, by specific exercises.

Fast-twitch muscle fibres are type II of which there are 3 classes (in humans) IIa IIb IIx. Type IIb (fast glycolytic) are the most likely candidate for increasing speed. Most muscles are composed of a "mosaic" of different fibre types and specific exercises will cause certain muscle fiber types to convert to others, therefore changing the metabolic and contractile properties of the muscle.

I knew my extensive educatation would come in handy one day.

[Pinshark]

I have tinkered my swing around this year and have found quite a bit more power from more shoulder turn. It took some getting used to as BC said I was coming over the top for a while but have gotten that fixed up and am carrying the ball 15-20 yards further.

[Started2k3]

It would be interesting to see the responses on any of "The Golfing Machine" forums to your suggestion that power comes from shoulder rotation and NOT from Homer's 4 power accumulators.

This would be a futile discussion on that particular forums. Single focus forums would generally result in only discussions between "like minded" individuals and they don't take kindly to interlopers trying to take down the house (commonly called trolls).

I would agree that if I was capable of rotating my shoulders at a good clip, I would be able to incease my distance a little, however, to do this without the aforemention 4 playing a major role in the equation would be tough. Because the shoulders and the club shaft would move on very different plane angles, the rotation of the shoulders would cause on over the top swing, UNLESS you have trained the arms to come down on the shaft axis plane, independently of the shoulders. Ben Hogan and Moe Norman are interesting examples of doing all of this correctly, but feeling it differently. Hogan turned the left hip left, but he had a huge arm/hands drop into the "slot," while Moe tried to put his hands in his back right hip pocket, but had a similar lower body movement as Hogan's.

The faster you rotate your shoulders the more force is required to keep your hands/club/arms ON PLANE. So some additional strenghtening of ancillary muscles (arms, deltoids, pectorals) would be required.

The radial acceleration (angular acceleration) is caused by extension of the right arm, which moves the left arm from an acute angle to a 90° angle.There is an interesting section on radial acceleration in Tom Wishon's new clubmaking book when he talks of the importance of knowing the golfers release habit. There is no mention of the right arm straightening, but only of the hands accelerating from the top. when the hands slow down, release starts and part of the release is the right arm straightening. However, the right arm straightening as with the other power accumulators shoiuld never be done consciously. This is why I like Mark Evershed's and John Dunnigan's approach of emphasing theat the arms must be on a particular plane and when this happens everything else happens efficiently.

I would contend that the hands mainly slow down because of the release of the wrists, which fits with the conservation of angular momentum.

I would argue that you would be able to get the major part of your clubhead speed in this experiment. This is exactly where we differ.
If we could come up with a cast versus no cast experiment I would wager a significant amount of money that the distance hit by a cast swing would be a very small fraction of the one without.

We agree to disagree. The problem is that if we reverse your experiment essentially you are in a body cast with only your deltoids to your hands free to move. Maybe we could find someone to experiment on ... Richard ... are you there Richard.

Good thread. Interesting ideas shared. Many readers will probably say, "What the hell are these guys talking about?" Regardless, you are still going to rotate your shoulders and I am going to swing my arms down on plane, and at the end of the day we are both ging to enjoy playing this crazy game as much as anyone.

Trust me I had no expectation of swaying you, and I enjoy every moment that play (even the mis).

I would hope that this discussion will make people realize that they need to think about their swing, do some independent research, and not just ask for the answer without really knowing the question.

Thank you,
Charles

[Started2k3]

Fast-twitch muscle fibres are type II of which there are 3 classes (in humans) IIa IIb IIx. Type IIb (fast glycolytic) are the most likely candidate for increasing speed. Most muscles are composed of a "mosaic" of different fibre types and specific exercises will cause certain muscle fiber types to convert to others, therefore changing the metabolic and contractile properties of the muscle.

I knew my extensive educatation would come in handy one day.

ALL HAIL HANK!!!

I know how you feel when you actually get to use and present parts of your education. I am just holding out for a biochem or economics question ... may be a long long time.

[Started2k3]

I have tinkered my swing around this year and have found quite a bit more power from more shoulder turn. It took some getting used to as BC said I was coming over the top for a while but have gotten that fixed up and am carrying the ball 15-20 yards further.

I would contend, and as you have found, that it does not take much to increase your swing speed or "correct" the swing path thereafter.

I think this will be my winter focus.

[Pinshark]

I would contend, and as you have found, that it does not take much to increase your swing speed or "correct" the swing path thereafter.

I think this will be my winter focus.

I should add that with my very limited play and practice time this year, my scores reflect the need to improve my short game....the tedious part of golf practicing your short game.

[Started2k3]

I should add that with my very limited play and practice time this year, my scores reflect the need to improve my short game....the tedious part of golf practicing your short game.

I have tried "practicing" over the winter only to find that a new fault had gotten into the mix because I could not observe and analyze the resultant ball flight. So I will limit myself to some abdominal strenghtening/maintenance and putting on my basement carpet.

[Started2k3]

Hey BCMist are they talking about you?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/72052...ted+lower+body

[little brit]

I have tried "practicing" over the winter only to find that a new fault had gotten into the mix because I could not observe and analyze the resultant ball flight. So I will limit myself to some abdominal strenghtening/maintenance and putting on my basement carpet.

I totally agree with you there. I have decided to limit my practice to the Sim. That at least gives you some idea if you are on the right track. The only problem still is that I find the mats way more forgiving than turf.