where does power come from?

[khadafi_9]

i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80. i feel one of my main problems is lack of power. i hit my 7 iron about 140. I would like to know how some guys can hit a 9 iron 140 yards without even having as good of technique as I feel I have. would like to hear everyones thoughts on whether power is simply proper technique, physical strength or a bit of both.

[mcgoo]

I have the same problem and question.

[jvincent]

Both.

Technique will allow you to use your inherent power efficiently. The better your technique, the more efficient.

Your strength (arms, body, etc) will determine how fast you can get the club moving.

[jonf]

If you're breaking 80 after 2 years, you have no problems

[zoic]

Many people hit a 7 iron 140 yards on average, nothing wrong with that. Groove a consistent swing and figure out your yardages, then just pick the right club, regardless of what others would use.

[byerxa]

You are breaking 80 because you are not swinging hard. I'd cough up 15-20 yards on my 7 iron to lose 5-10 strokes, but I am too "stubborn"! As mentioned by others, do not try to swing harder. If you really want to gain distance, first make your swing as efficient as possible. Only then can you work on more power and that typically will require strengthening and increasing flexibility.

I hit the longest when I swing smooth and within myself, especially when I properly lag into the ball. As soon as I try to "hit" the ball it is all over .

[Andru]

i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80. i feel one of my main problems is lack of power. i hit my 7 iron about 140. I would like to know how some guys can hit a 9 iron 140 yards without even having as good of technique as I feel I have. would like to hear everyones thoughts on whether power is simply proper technique, physical strength or a bit of both.

Pure contact and a tight little draw.

You also have to consider the length of your shafts and the lofts. I've hit my 9 iron 150 With a flyer lie in the rough and 60 yards into the wind. If straight stock from 135-142. I pull a 9. It's not a factor.

However. I've found myself pulling more club and swinging less as that stupid ball is backing up 9 feet when it hits the green. I've been crying for backspin since I started playing golf, now I'm doing everything I can to get rid of it. It sucks hitting it a foot from the pin and having a 10 foot putt. Happened today on a par 3. ARGGHH!

Cory Pavin set the 9 hole scoring record bunting it out there.

[shovellover]

i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80. i feel one of my main problems is lack of power. i hit my 7 iron about 140. I would like to know how some guys can hit a 9 iron 140 yards without even having as good of technique as I feel I have. would like to hear everyones thoughts on whether power is simply proper technique, physical strength or a bit of both.

Dude, you broke 80. Relax.

Technique is where it's at. Those lucky individuals who can sync up all parts of their body into one mighty swipe at a little white ball.

I recently started using my 9i as my 120yd club. So i'm 120+ out from the pin, middle of elevated green & i airmail it by a good 10-15 yds. The more i swing THROUGH the ball the further it goes.

[Txxxxxxx]

Power comes from spinach.

No seriously though. Being long isn't a big deal. That's why you carry all those irons in your bag. If you have a good swing and hit the ball straight, you're on your way to shooting low 70's. Keep doing what you're doing.

[Eldred]

[quote=Andru]Pure contact and a tight little draw.
quote]

I've only done that a couple of times this year. (both 8 irons on 140ish par 3).
And what a feeling that was. There were many OK shots, but you just knew from the get go that was the golf shot.

[clankoffdatee]

[QUOTE=khadafi_9]i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80.



Don't change a damn thing man.No Golf Channel or Golf Digest either.
Not many that can make that claim.

[rezadue]

One question. When you say you broke 80s, do you mean you shot a round or more in the 70s or 80s?

Either way don't change too much. You are rocking and rolling with the distances you are hitting.

i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80. i feel one of my main problems is lack of power. i hit my 7 iron about 140. I would like to know how some guys can hit a 9 iron 140 yards without even having as good of technique as I feel I have. would like to hear everyones thoughts on whether power is simply proper technique, physical strength or a bit of both.

[Andru]

[QUOTE=Eldred]

Pure contact and a tight little draw.
quote]

I've only done that a couple of times this year. (both 8 irons on 140ish par 3).
And what a feeling that was. There were many OK shots, but you just knew from the get go that was the golf shot.

I agree it is THE golf shot. I do like carving a driver off the tee every now and then but a tigth draw is really solid. And this is coming from a guy who loved the ball flying left to right. I've been converted. Thanks BC.

[BC MIST]

i've only been golfing a couple years and recently broke 80. i feel one of my main problems is lack of power. i hit my 7 iron about 140. I would like to know how some guys can hit a 9 iron 140 yards without even having as good of technique as I feel I have. would like to hear everyones thoughts on whether power is simply proper technique, physical strength or a bit of both.

Assumption: You have proper technique. That is, you swing having your club head come into the ball on a slightly inside path, with a less slightly open club face. Maintaining this swing motion, the question, "Where does power come from," can be answered.

The bulk of club head speed comes from the speed at which you can move your arms, on plane, as described above. The bulk does NOT from the body, legs, hip/shoulder differential, shoulder rotation and so on, as many still believe and unfortunately, some even teach. The body motion, which is very important, puts your arms in a position to transfer its contribution, to the ball. The faster you swing the arms correctly, the faster the body has to and will move. The faster you consciously move your hips, drive your legs, etc., the greater is the chance of your arms being off plane, with a resulting loss in power and accuracy.

Timing and flexibility will allow your arms to drop down on plane, while possibly increasing the wrist kock angle or the bending of the shaft, and if you can maintain this angle, your club head speed will be quite high. If you can accelerate your hands/arms and club head at the same rate as you begin the downswing, (radial acceleration?) you will maintain the bending or “loading” action on the shaft. However, as soon as acceleration begins to decrease, the shaft cannot remain bent and the wrist kock angle starts to become more obtuse, the arms begin slowing down and the club head will speed up. The later this angle increase happens, the greater will be the speed at impact. Remember: You must swing the club on its proper plane.

If you find slow motion shots of Tiger and VJ, from the “looking at the hole” view, you will see that their hands move back toward the camera first, then down and out to the ball. This will keep the arms on plane and will maintain the wrist kock angle. This motion does NOT happen because they “drive or spin their hips.”

Golfers should be overall fit and flexible, but an emphasis on strengthening the hands/arms will help the most. Developing a sound golf swing is paramount with a transition motion where the hands begin BACK, DOWN and the OUT to the ball. Most of us move our hands DOWN and OUT, without the BACK, which causes the wrist kock angle to increase way too soon, resulting in loss of power. One does not have to swing hard to be powerful, one has to swing better. Watch VJ swing. He just waves at it, and yet he belts it a very long way.

[mcgoo]

Nice post BC Mist

[Wknd_Warrior]

I'm going to chime in here because I think I have something to offer. I have always hit a fairly long ball (not uber long or anything) so here goes

Technique is important, but I don't think the pros have the market cornerred, and there's no magic move that adds 25 yards to your drives, other than perhaps sticking to some basic fundamentals.

You don't have to be super flexible to get into some kind of coveted "two cheek" position, but if you are swiping at the ball with your arms without some kind of weight shift or turn you aren't going to be able to leverage your strength into the ball.

I think this pretty much goes hand in hand with the whole casting thing, if you're releasing the wrists way too early you aren't going to get everything smucking the ball all at once.

Without offering a good solution I am going to debunk 99% of what I've seen on these topics. Drills and the like to get this going are all crap and dead ends. If you've already partially grooved a hang back over the top move it might a bit of a leap of faith to get ahead of or beside the ball at impact, but with some good instruction or a good book and some effort the way forward should click into place.

Ypu read a lot about timing, but delaying the wrists I presonally think is the last thing anyone should be thinking about when they hit the ball. who thinks about that when they are trying to knock a baseball out of the park? Again, it's all crap IMO. Move the swing in the right direction and try to hit it hard. I'm not saying try to kill it all the time on the course, but if you drop a couple of bombs on the range you are probably starting to do something right and can take it with you to some extent.

Balance is another biggy. Watch the pros on tv, they swing a SW in slow motion with a 3/4 swing and hit it farther than a lot of people's 9i goes. When they get back to the top they haven't wound themselves up so much that they have lost their balance, they've got to a position where they can drop the club with as much force as they think the shot requires. Sure a long swing sometimes pays off just due to its overall length but if you are getting out of your swing it get's harder to deliver a precise blow and leverage all your motion into the ball. Younge flexible athlete's make fine golfers and get back to very pretty positions at the top, buit watch closely, they aren't swinging off of their feet, they are ready to deliver at the top.

Get the thumb off of the top of the grip. If you can find one pro that presses their thumb on the grip, well, then you've found one pro who does that lol, you get my meaning. You aren't adding much wrist to the stroke if the club isn't beig gripped by your HANDS. Even pros with strong grips have a "V" over the shaft and don't use their right thumb to hold the club down. A strong golfer may get away with this to some degree, but I personally don't think it helps anyone. The #1 reason I can think of for this grip is an attempt to keep the club face closed to fight a slice. I suppose it might help pushing the ball right off impact, but the it's mostly the swing path that makes the ball curve.

oh, and if you really want to pummel it out there you have to swing like a *** lol.

[byerxa]

Ypu read a lot about timing, but delaying the wrists I presonally think is the last thing anyone should be thinking about when they hit the ball. who thinks about that when they are trying to knock a baseball out of the park?

Everyone is different and in my case I have to work on keeping the hands from flipping out at it. And as for the baseball analogy, I will contend there are the same issues there. Watch a good baseball player hit the ball and much like a good golf swing they are lagging into the ball with the bat behind their hands. Baseball is much more forgiving to flawed swings hence people do not notice it as much, but hacks in baseball have a lot of the same swing faults as in golf. And yes, I pay attention to this when I play baseball when I am trying to hit it out of the park, otherwise I can only moderate line drives down the 3rd base line (or foul).

But the main point both our posts make is that people really need to go to a good pro and figure out what their issues are and sort them out. Tips of the day, etc., are generally useless if they are addressing something that is not a problem for you. My buddy went to the same pro I do and he was working on completely different things than I was. Just shows that everyone has different needs.

[Powerdraw]

Get the thumb off of the top of the grip. If you can find one pro that presses their thumb on the grip, well, then you've found one pro who does that lol, you get my meaning. You aren't adding much wrist to the stroke if the club isn't beig gripped by your HANDS. Even pros with strong grips have a "V" over the shaft and don't use their right thumb to hold the club down. A strong golfer may get away with this to some degree, but I personally don't think it helps anyone. The #1 reason I can think of for this grip is an attempt to keep the club face closed to fight a slice. I suppose it might help pushing the ball right off impact, but the it's mostly the swing path that makes the ball curve.

oh, and if you really want to pummel it out there you have to swing like a *** lol.

homerun post! i see many a swipes and trials in this post. experience! great stuff. Every hacker has his thumb on top or then tries to stick there right thumb in back of shaft. You never see this in baseball. We get obsessed by clubface control, but clubface is not controlled by the thumbs is it.

[Started2k3]

Personally, I think you should be asking this question on a forum that focuses on this question.

Here is a link to a guy's website who's business it is to increase power:
http://www.sonicboomgolf.com/

Here is a link to a long drive forum, if you look through some of the threads you will find discussions about this:
http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/t...=1&smode=1&p=1

This thread may help:
http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=1651861

[BC MIST]

Technique is important, but I don't think the pros have the market cornerred, and there's no magic move that adds 25 yards to your drives, other than perhaps sticking to some basic fundamentals.

In addition to having a sound grip and a square setup, there are only three things one needs to hit the ball efficiently:
(1) Educated hands, meaning that the left wrist is kept FLAT throughout the swing and the right wrist is kept BENT. This relationship IS learned and must be thought about IN PRACTICE, but NOT while playing. No-one can play consistently well without a flat left and bent right, THROUGH IMPACT.
(2) On Plane arms, meaning that when the club is brought down below hip height the tip end of the shaft is pointing along the target line extended both to the right of the ball before impact and to the left of the ball after impact. To achieve the latter, the hands must NOT be extended down the line, but must come around the body.
(3) A quiet body, meaning that the body moves in response to the on plane arm swing, for the purpose of BALANCE, as mentioned, and stableization.
Numbers 1 and 2 are learned, while #3 happens without conscious thought, INSPITE OF WHAT ALL THE PSEUDO INSTRUCTORS SAY.

You don't have to be super flexible to get into some kind of coveted "two cheek" position, but if you are swiping at the ball with your arms without some kind of weight shift or turn you aren't going to be able to leverage your strength into the ball.

YOU don't shift your weight, your weight GETS shifted.
You don't turn your shoulders, your shoulders GET turned.
Both are achieved by moving the hands/arms back and forth ON PLANE as described above. In coming down you MUST hit down on the ball. This is what shifts the weight forward. YOU don't do it, consciously.

I think this pretty much goes hand in hand with the whole casting thing, if you're releasing the wrists way too early you aren't going to get everything smucking the ball all at once.

Very true. If the arms are brought down ON PLANE, the educated hands will be in the correct position. I dislike the use of the word RELEASE as it suggests that the golfer must do something with the wrists coming through. NOT SO. If the golfer has learned to keep the left FLAT and the right BENT, then inertia will do what ever straightening of the 4 leverage angles that needs to be done. If the golfer can accelerate the hands/arms ON PLANE at the start of the downswing and keep them accelerating as long as possible, (radial acceleration) then the leverage angles will be maintained until late in the downswing. The key here is ON PLANE. As soon as the hands/arms move out even a little, radial acceleration stops, leverage angles straighten and power and accuracy is lost.

Without offering a good solution I am going to debunk 99% of what I've seen on these topics. Drills and the like to get this going are all crap and dead ends. If you've already partially grooved a hang back over the top move it might a bit of a leap of faith to get ahead of or beside the ball at impact, but with some good instruction or a good book and some effort the way forward should click into place.

Yes/No. Most drills are a waste of time. Swinging in slow motion and static positions is the best way to go. But doing something(drills) to start down ON PLANE and to keep the left wrist flat and the right wrist bent, is essential. IMO, there is not a lot of good/correct instruction around, most books are a waste of money and do more harm than good. Three exceptions: John Dunnigan's "The Secret of the Golf Swing," Mark Evershed's, "The Golf Solution," and his "Knowledge Video," (These are the best, by far) and Paul Bertholy exercises, in "Golf Swing Construction 101."

Ypu read a lot about timing, but delaying the wrists I presonally think is the last thing anyone should be thinking about when they hit the ball. who thinks about that when they are trying to knock a baseball out of the park? Again, it's all crap IMO.

It's crap if you think about delaying the wrists while you play, but it is essential to think about this while you practice.

Balance is another biggy. Watch the pros on tv, they swing a SW in slow motion with a 3/4 swing and hit it farther than a lot of people's 9i goes. When they get back to the top they haven't wound themselves up so much that they have lost their balance, they've got to a position where they can drop the club with as much force as they think the shot requires.

Absolutely correct.

Sure a long swing sometimes pays off just due to its overall length .

Assuming you are referring to the backswing a "long" swing generates
little additional power, except if the golfer has long arms and/or a longer club. What the golfer needs is a LARGE ARC on the downswing. A long arc on the backswing is meaningless. I can get to a position at the top by setting my wrists early or late, so what does it matter if I set them early or late? By achieving a large downswing arc, that is, by retaining the wrist kock angle, the club head moves downward more vertically, but still on an arc, and a large one at that, then when I shorten the radius of this large arc, I will have maximum club head speed at impact. When the golfer casts creating a small downswing arc, when that radius is shortened, then there is a lot less club head speed left.

I should write a book, er, I guess the above is like a book.

[mcgoo]

You should, what else do you have to occupy your time this winter.

[Wknd_Warrior]

"YOU don't shift your weight, your weight GETS shifted.
You don't turn your shoulders, your shoulders GET turned.
Both are achieved by moving the hands/arms back and forth ON PLANE as described above. In coming down you MUST hit down on the ball. This is what shifts the weight forward. YOU don't do it, consciously."

I suppose the kernal is wisdom is that it's hard to get any leverage on the ball if you swing with most of your weight on your trailing foot, for whatever reason.

I'm totally with you on the shoulders, but I could read your post as the arms dragging the body around. If that's what you mean then I've landed on the wrong planet somehow or don't know how to explain myself. I try to stick to the big picture anyhow since my knowledge of what's right or how it really works isn't that detailed. I have to agree that it shouldn't be a big concious part of the swing any more than delaying the wrists until the last second lol.

After reading you post I was watching Phil swing on tv, I think he his a good example of what you are talking about. Whereas when I see slowmos of guys like Daly and Tiger they make a huge move on the ball with the lower body.

[Wknd_Warrior]

The bulk of club head speed comes from the speed at which you can move your arms, on plane, as described above. The bulk does NOT from the body, legs, hip/shoulder differential, shoulder rotation and so on, as many still believe and unfortunately, some even teach. The body motion, which is very important, puts your arms in a position to transfer its contribution, to the ball. The faster you swing the arms correctly, the faster the body has to and will move. The faster you consciously move your hips, drive your legs, etc., the greater is the chance of your arms being off plane, with a resulting loss in power and accuracy.

I like the way you put it here

[Started2k3]

The bulk of club head speed comes from the speed at which you can move your arms, on plane, as described above. The bulk does NOT from the body, legs, hip/shoulder differential, shoulder rotation and so on, as many still believe and unfortunately, some even teach. The body motion, which is very important, puts your arms in a position to transfer its contribution, to the ball. The faster you swing the arms correctly, the faster the body has to and will move. The faster you consciously move your hips, drive your legs, etc., the greater is the chance of your arms being off plane, with a resulting loss in power and accuracy.

So what you are saying is that the arms swing freely from the body, and the body just has to catch up to keep the lead arm "attached" to the chest on the downswing. ?? ?? I thought this would have been the other way round.

[Started2k3]

Golfers should be overall fit and flexible, but an emphasis on strengthening the hands/arms will help the most.

This I disagree with. For power, at least, there is no requirement to be fit. I weigh in at 300+ pounds and make John Daly look like GQ model. My good drives carry 270yds and usually roll out to 290ish. I get about 175yds out of my 7i.

I will grant you that strength and flexibility are important for golf swing power.

Personally I think, the fitness/endurance of the golfer will help for consistency throughout the round.

[Wknd_Warrior]

at 300 lbs you've got to have some strength in your swing, I think BC was trying to say that all this torquing up the body and other stuff is overrated. At the end of the day it's your arms and hands that hit the ball.

[mcgoo]

It is my empirical observation that strong people hit the ball longer, weather they be big or small; usually they are big.

[BC MIST]

So what you are saying is that the arms swing freely from the body, and the body just has to catch up to keep the lead arm "attached" to the chest on the downswing. ?? ?? I thought this would have been the other way round.

Regardless of what you think about when you swing, your swing is 99.9% subconscious. Your subconscious will anticipate your all important arm swing and move your body forward to the correct balanced and stable position that will allow the arms/shoulders/hands leverage angles to extend at the correct instant, UNLESS you CONSCIOUSLY do something to prevent this from happening. The body does NOT follow the arms; it leads it. But, YOU do NOT do this consciously.

In order for the arms to be on the proper plane, it is likely that the lead upper arm will be connected or very close to the lead upper chest. If not, the club shaft will probably be off plane to the right.

[BC MIST]

This I disagree with. For power, at least, there is no requirement to be fit. I weigh in at 300+ pounds and make John Daly look like GQ model. My good drives carry 270yds and usually roll out to 290ish. I get about 175yds out of my 7i.

I will grant you that strength and flexibility are important for golf swing power.

Personally I think, the fitness/endurance of the golfer will help for consistency throughout the round.

Your last statement is very true and part of the reason I run roughly 40 kilometres a week.

There is a simple momentum physics formula that shows that the MASS of the system(your 300 lbs.) has NO effect on how far the ball goes. The only factor is club head speed and that is your inate ability to swing the club faster, with your arms. Obviously, however, there is a reasonably high correlation between weight and strength. But, I have seen 130 pound golfers who can carry the ball 300 yards and 300 lb golfers who are pea shooters. If you hit the ball with your 5000 pound car at 100 mph, it would go no further than being hit with your driver at 100 mph (and probably less) as you car has a co-efficient of restitution (COR) of less than the allowable .83.

Over the years I have played with or seen hit the ball, a few NHL hockey players, who
are very upper body strong, for obvious reasons. All could hit the ball a country mile. In a recent tournament a golfer related the story of Daniel Alfredsson playing in the Royal Ottawa's club championship final, and on 15 hit a 224 yard shot (from the marker) with a 4 iron. Some golfers can just move the arms faster than others and this is inate ability, but, the average Joe can increase his club head speed by strengthening the Type III,(I think) fast twitch muscle fibres, by specific exercises.

Regardless, golf is a game of putting the ball in the hole in the least number of strokes, so IMO, the emphasis HAS to be on swinging on plane, with educated hands, (left wrist flat, right wrist bent), principles which apply to chipping and putting as much as they do to the long game, and overall distace hit is a function of doing the above CORRECTLY. Too bad it's easier said than done.

[BC MIST]

I'm totally with you on the shoulders, but I could read your post as the arms dragging the body around. If that's what you mean then I've landed on the wrong planet somehow or don't know how to explain myself.

Check what I mentioned in post 28 above. You are on the right planet. The arms do NOT drag the body around, the body moves first, but it is NOT a conscious action. The good news is that our subconscious minds are a heck of a lot smarter than our conscious ones. Remember though, the ball must be hit down on for this to happen, and to be on plane, you must hit down on the inside quardrant of the ball. If there is a secret to success in ball striking, these are the two ABSOLUTLY ESSENTIAL ingredients, often over looked by teaching "professionals."

Whereas when I see slowmos of guys like Daly and Tiger they make a huge move on the ball with the lower body.

Daly has to make a big leg move to compensate for the fault of being too upright. His superior talent allows him to be successful at doing this, some of the time. Tiger's lower body used to race ahead of his upper because he too, was too upright, causing him to get "stuck, " ( I hate the expression) and blocking the ball to the right. (Off plane right) More recently, he has flattened his backswing, starts his arm downswing by moving the hands BACK, then DOWN, then OUT to the ball and his lower body movement is obviously much less than before (Hank ) When you watch the NIKE commercial of Tiger in slo motion, you should notice than while the lower body definitely moves forward at the start of the downsing, it is not excessive. This partly explains why he is currently going for 5 in a row.