Ruling Please - In Hazard or Lost?

[Tanglegrip]

Happened today at Loch March #15 (par 5), fence (OB) down the left side the complete length of the hole, a thick stand of trees parallel to the fairway on the right side about 150 - 200 yds from the tee with the cartpath running behind the trees and in front of a staked hazard (marsh/water).

FC ("A") hits driver off the tee slicing high into the trees. Other FC ("B") & I clearly hear the ball strike first one tree then a second. "A" says the ball must be in the water. "B" & I say no, definitely hit the trees, suggest that he hits a provisional.

"A" hit a provisional, again slices, this time looking like it may have cleared the trees. No sound of the ball hitting the trees or a splash and of course we can't see through the stand of trees to tell if the ball landed on/near the cartpath or in the hazard.

"A" figures that he can now take a drop at the stakes. "B" agrees. I indicated that there is still no evidence that the ball is in the hazard and that "A" should hit a second provision. "A" decides not to do so and does not find either ball. Drops at the hazard and claims he is laying 4 and hitting 5.

I maintain that he should go back to the tee hitting 5 as he could not find either ball and there is no reasonable evidence to indicate that either his first or second ball were actually in the hazard. (IMO correct procedure would be for "A" to have hit a second provisional, maybe with a 3W, 5W or iron to keep it in play ).

What is the correct ruling?

[jvincent]

Hard to say without seeing the ball flight, but if the provisional cleared the trees in the air then I would say it's reasonable that the ball is in the water.

I've play that hole many times and if I've pictured the ball flight correctly, it's wet.

[Tanglegrip]

From the tee it looked like it would have cleared the trees but it was a close call. Without evidence to the contrary I still maintaining that it is presumed to be lost and not wet.

I figure that it only takes one skinny little branch, or very thick leaf to give the ball a downward trajectory into the rough. After all I'm sure that it was one scrawny pine needle that stopped my ball dead on #11 just short of the dogleg .

Did I forget to mention that "A" was my boss?

[zoic]

Did I forget to mention that "A" was my boss?

You certainly did omit that very important fact. In the case I think the ruling is "it is a gimme". Same ruling applies to all other "situations".

[Tanglegrip]

You certainly did omit that very important fact. In the case I think the ruling is "it is a gimme". Same ruling applies to all other "situations".

ROTFLMAO

We didn't argue with his 10 on the hole seeing as my buddy bogied the hole and I made par. We couldn't go easy on "A" as this was his first competition for the "trophy" with bragging rights for the week. "A" plays to a 26 HCP and "B" plays to a 25 HCP so he was giving up 1 stroke (and has never beaten "A"). I'm down to 13 from my 21 at the start of the year so I was giving up 13 strokes to "A".

Ended up beating "A" by 15 and "B" by 17!

[Gary Hill]

8-1 Advice
During a stipulated round, a player must not:
(a) give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner

Did you add the penalty to YOUR score for suggesting that he hit a provisional ball?

[Tanglegrip]

Touche, Gary! Point made.

Is it permissible to indicate to "A" that I heard his ball strike a tree "twice" and do not believe that his ball went into the hazard? I did this after he indicated that his first ball would have made the hazard. IIRC "B" concurred and we both said "I'd hit a provisional" so we're both guilty as charged.

If we ask him whether he is going to hit a provisional (he was the last to hit), is this advice?

When exactly should we dispute "A"'s assertion that his ball went into the hazard, as he made this before we left the tee after hitting his provisional. I indicated that I couldn't be sure if his ball would have made the hazard as the portion of the hazard where his ball may have entered was not visible from our vantage point, and in lieu of any evidence I think that the ball should be presumed lost (if he could not find it), not necessarily in the hazard. Right or wrong?

[Gary Hill]

Is it permissible to indicate to "A" that I heard his ball strike a tree "twice" and do not believe that his ball went into the hazard?

Yes

If we ask him whether he is going to hit a provisional (he was the last to hit), is this advice?

It could be. (Ex. "You are going to hit a provisional ball, aren't you?")
“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Why do you feel the need to ask or tell him anything about his round?
If you believe he may have breached the Rules, take it up with the Committee.

When exactly should we dispute "A"'s assertion that his ball went into the hazard, as he made this before we left the tee after hitting his provisional.

When and if asked for your opinion by the Committee AFTER the round when you bring the matter to the attention of the Committee at the scoring table.

[Tanglegrip]

Okay Gary, think that I've got it.

Keep quiet, let him drop at the hazard from his original shot, post his score, and dispute it at that point with the Committee.

I'm assuming that the Committee would review the evidence. "B" and myself indicating that we heard the ball hit two trees versus "A's" assertion that his ball would have reached the hazard.

If "A" had not hit a provisional (assuming that we're quiet as church mice on the subject), and did not search for the original ball in the treed area, would this indicate to the Committee that he likely did reach the hazard, or just that he believed that he had?

Also, at a public course I understand that the course is the Committee. Who in particular should this go to, the pro on staff?

[Tanglegrip]

Slightly off topic, I believe BC Mist mentioned an upcoming 2 day rules seminar in Ottawa this fall. If it is open to the public I'm wondering if you have or could post details or send me a PM on it.

[g8r]

Yes
Why do you feel the need to ask or tell him anything about his round?
If you believe he may have breached the Rules, take it up with the Committee.

When and if asked for your opinion by the Committee AFTER the round when you bring the matter to the attention of the Committee at the scoring table.

It doesn't sound like there was a "scoring table"...its not a tournament, just a game between co-workers trying to follow the rules. Not everyone has the opportunity to play in official tournaments with Rules Officials, scoring tables, committees to report to after a round, hence the reason for asking here.

So basically, your advice is to not say anything, go tell "the committee" after the round and tell your boss that he is DQ'd on Monday?

My question out of all of this is how do people to learn the rules if you aren't allowed to help them with the rules when you are playing?

[LobWedge]

Based on the number of times that I have played that course, and looking at the overhead sattellite view (thanks Dan ), I'm confident in saying that his first ball would have stayed in, or near the trees, and that his "provisional" would have landed in the hazard.

[GarthM]

Information on the rules is not considered advice.

As for the hole in question, unless you have a spotter up by the trees, you have no way of knowing with reasonable evidence that the ball entered the hazard versus being lost in the trees short of the water, or the long grass past the water, satellite or no satellite....

4 years ago in the Citizen a guy in my group was sent back to the tee by the rules official, and this year it was clearly specified on the rules sheet that a provisional was to be played if your ball went over in that direction.

Unfortunately reasonable evidence is one of those rules that does not always make sense.

GarthM

[LobWedge]

Information on the rules is not considered advice.

True, but Tanglegrip said "...I say no, definitely hit the trees, suggest that he hits a provisional." IMO that's advice.

As for the hole in question, unless you have a spotter up by the trees, you have no way of knowing with reasonable evidence that the ball entered the hazard versus being lost in the trees short of the water, or the long grass past the water, satellite or no satellite....

Its' 275 yards to the long grass across the water from the white tees. I'm 99.99% sure that if a ball carries over those trees it's going to end up in the drink. Sounds like reasonable evidence to me.

[jeffc]

without seeing the ball flight it is tough to say, though in looking at Google Maps, there is a decent chance that the ball could have cleared the water and landed in that penninnsula with trees on the other side. In my opinion there is not enough evidence that would state the ball was in the hazard or not.

[LobWedge]

without seeing the ball flight it is tough to say, though in looking at Google Maps, there is a decent chance that the ball could have cleared the water and landed in that penninnsula with trees on the other side. In my opinion there is not enough evidence that would state the ball was in the hazard or not.

Thats a shot of less than 200 yards that would be 60-80 yards off line. That's not a slice, that's a shank. I'm sticking to my original assessment.

[GarthM]

Thats a shot of less than 200 yards that would be 60-80 yards off line. That's not a slice, that's a shank. I'm sticking to my original assessment.

Actually you would only be about 4-6 yards off the fairway which is only about 40 yards wide at that point.

[Tanglegrip]

We were playing from the blue tees and "A" had been hitting well off the tee, certainly 210 - 230. Due to the fence along the right side many people aim right and I believe that "A" was aiming to the right on his original shot. This combined with a slice/strong fade took his first ball at the trees, entering them near but not over the tallest trees. Both "B" & I clearly hear his ball striking first one tree then a second.

"A" announced that he would just drop at the hazard as (I'm paraphrasing) "that one had to have gone into the water". Both "B" & I announced that we had heard it strike trees twice. We followed this up with "I'd hit a provisional" or something to that effect.

From a rules point of view I can see how the implied advice to hit a provisional could (and probably did) affect A" decision to take this option, and I bow to Gary's greater knowledge in this area.

From my point of view it was more of a "well, it hit the trees twice so I'm not going to buy the stroke penalty without the distance" especially without "A" taking at least a cursory look in the trees for his ball.

Personally I don't think that the statement that we heard the ball strike the trees would be advice, simply statement of what we heard.

The second shot was on the same line as the first and looked slightly higher from my vantage point. No sound of the ball striking trees. I admit that it had good potential to clear the trees, I'm just not convinced that it did indeed make it over as it could easily have hit leaves or smaller branches. If it did make it over there is the cartpath, about a yard of thick rough, and then the water.

BTW we're trying pretty hard to follow the rules even in a friendly office match. Prior to teeing off #1 we reconfirmed that we would indeed be playing the ball down, no preferred lies, etc., all ROG apply. Of course my first tee shot lands in the fairway about 220 from the tee and rolls into a divot! The joys of golf.

[Gary Hill]

My question out of all of this is how do people to learn the rules if you aren't allowed to help them with the rules when you are playing?

You learn the Rules at the 19th tee.

[AAA]

My question out of all of this is how do people to learn the rules if you aren't allowed to help them with the rules when you are playing?

“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules or on matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

[Tanglegrip]

Gary, in the case where one cannot actually see the hazard what information should the competitor use to judge whether they should or should not hit a provisional, and what information should they use to judge whether the ball is to be deemed lost in or outside the hazard (provided it is not found)?

I do realize that the decision to hit a provisional is up to the individual competitor, that every situation is different, and that the competitor must take responsibility for their own decision, right or wrong. (Now I can see why off hand remarks should be kept to oneself).

"The loud sound you heard was the ball going through first one tree then a second tree before landing in the water" probably won't stand up in front of a Committee (or FC's for that matter).

I am however honestly curious as to what information a competitor should use in making their decision, or what information a rules official would consider as pertinent?

We really are trying to play by the ROG and your counsel is always appreciated.

[AAA]

For a provisional
The test is - could the ball be anywhere else than in the hazard. If so, you may take a provisional.
The words in the relief procedure say - If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds .......

[Tanglegrip]

AAA, good info, thanks and I'll try to abide by it. I find it is so much quicker to just hit a provisional and then look where I would like to find my first shot, especially if it went into thick rough or a heavily wooded areas. If I don't find it quickly (1-2 minutes) then I usually figure that I really don't want to find it, and proceed with my provisional.

The exception would be where an unplayable would leave me in an advanced position and able to drop in the fairway or rough short enough to give me a decent shot then finding the ball is key to taking the unplayable.

[Gary Hill]

If I don't find it quickly (1-2 minutes) then I usually figure that I really don't want to find it, and proceed with my provisional.

You had better hit your provisional ball before I find your orignial ball in the deep stuff.

[Tanglegrip]

You had better hit your provisional ball before I find your orignial ball in the deep stuff.

Of course! Part of the game, if anyone finds my ball before I advance my provisional past that point then its still the ball in play. The FC's I usually play with are usually looking for their own at the same time