If you could build your ultimate 'dream' clubs...

[golfman71]

With what parts would you put them together?

[1972Apex]

Tough call. I'm assuming you mean including the heads. So at the risk of offending my current clubs, here's the dream set.

Driver - SMT Nemesis with Pro Force Golf 65 stiff
3-wood - Current Bang SF with DGS300
5wood - Current Hireko Millenium with DGS300
3-PW - Mizuno MP-33 with DGS300 (or maybe tour-flighted Rifle 5.5)
SW - Cleveland 56* 900 Series GunMetal with DGS300

All would have Lamkin Crossline or Golf Pride Tour Velvet grips

[golfman71]

Naming ProLite as your shaft of choice, I take it you prefer butt stiffness and tip flexibility as opposed to butt soft and tip stiff. I've never been quite sure exactly what difference that makes... maybe the difference between front and rear-wheel drive. As for accuracy, distance or trajectory, who knows. Do you pay much attention to this, or does it not really matter to you?

[1972Apex]

Hi Golfman: Assuming your message was to me as I am the only other one who has responded to this thread
Actually my shaft of choice is the Pro Force Gold, not the Prolite, although I like the Prolite as well.
The reason I like the Pro Force is not so much the butt or tip stiffness as it is that the flexpoint is mid to high on the Pro Force. This helps me hit the ball lower and keeps it from ballooning when hitting drives into the wind. I also find the higher kickpoint makes the tip feel LESS whippy and a bit more like a steel shaft.

[wahz]

My dream set? Alot of choice assuming cost is not an issue.

Driver: Taylor Made 300 (not 320) Tour with Fujikura Tour Spec SPD 757 (or my current Ping Tisi with Speeder 757)
3 wood: Sonartec SS02 15-16* with AJ Tech Metal X shaft or MCC's MFS 65P
2, 4-9i: Great big bertha VFT's with graphite shafts...ha, kidding. I'm content with my TA3's, but would put in Project X
Wedges (48-52-56-60): Titleist Vokey Tour Satin with Rifle Spinner
putter: R. Bettinardi BB-8

[golfman71]

Originally posted by Proforged
Hi Golfman: Assuming your message was to me as I am the only other one who has responded to this thread
Actually my shaft of choice is the Pro Force Gold, not the Prolite, although I like the Prolite as well.
The reason I like the Pro Force is not so much the butt or tip stiffness as it is that the flexpoint is mid to high on the Pro Force. This helps me hit the ball lower and keeps it from ballooning when hitting drives into the wind. I also find the higher kickpoint makes the tip feel LESS whippy and a bit more like a steel shaft.

At the risk of sounding like a complete friggin idiot, I have to ask you to explain the terms flexpoint and kickpoint. I've been confused about these terms for a long time and I've finally decided just to admit it. Are they the same damn thing? I assume we're talking about the point at which the shaft bends the most, creating more of a 'whipping' effect into the ball. A high flex or kick means that it bends higher on the shaft closer to the hands, which also translates to a softer butt and stiffer tip... am I right or am I a friggin' idiot after all? (and ballooning is when the wind causes the ball to stray off of its intended flight path, right?... man, this is embarrassing! )

I hope you'll take pity on me and explain without ridicule...

[natgolfer]

I now have my dream set in my bag.

Driver: SMT Nemesis, Accuflex Vision shaft
Irons: Golfsmith Proforged blades, Rifle shafts,
Putter: Odyssey Two-Ball
Fairway Woods; Orlimar 11 degree 2 wood, PF 75 (.350")
Maltby Triple Play 5 wood, Apache shaft

All shafts have been spined, deflection matched, and the graphite shafts have been FLO'ed, as well.

Most satisfying is that I did all the assembly, etc., myself.

[big easy]

I really do consider buying a SMT Nemesis. Proforged and Natgolfer, any feedback from this Driver? Which loft do you have? Is it a closed face?

[1972Apex]

Hi Big Easy:

I do not currently own an SMT Nemesis - yet - that's one of the reasons it's part of my dream set. However I have hit them, fondled them and admired them. Here's what I can tell you:

The first thing you'll notice is the extremely bright purple head (at least that was the color of the one I hit - believe it is available also in blue and grey). You won't need a very bright shaft for this club to stand out. There is also a scallop cut in the back portion of the crown towards the hosel. It really stands out due to the fact that the indentation is painted in silver to contrast the purple head.
The clubhead also has a grooveless face - very funky.
The club sets up very well at address, with the face being square to slightly closed.
Oh, and it's long and loud

[Chieflongtee]

Originally posted by golfman71
At the risk of sounding like a complete friggin idiot, I have to ask you to explain the terms flexpoint and kickpoint. I've been confused about these terms for a long time and I've finally decided just to admit it. Are they the same damn thing? I assume we're talking about the point at which the shaft bends the most, creating more of a 'whipping' effect into the ball. A high flex or kick means that it bends higher on the shaft closer to the hands, which also translates to a softer butt and stiffer tip... am I right or am I a friggin' idiot after all? (and ballooning is when the wind causes the ball to stray off of its intended flight path, right?... man, this is embarrassing! )

I hope you'll take pity on me and explain without ridicule...

Golfman71. This should shed some light.
[url]http://www.swingweight.com/shaft_fitting.htm:

Another factor to consider is the weight distribution of the shaft. Where most of the shaft weight is located effects the balance point of the shaft. If a high percentage of weight is toward the tip of the shaft, the resulting club feel will be heavier. If the balance point is high, the feel will be lighter. Here again, which of these a player prefers will vary from individual to individual. Bend point or flex distribution is also a factor. Bend point has little effect on actual ball flight, but does have a noticeable effect on club feel. Lower bend point shafts will feel softer and will create a club with more head feel. Higher bend shafts will feel stiffer and will tend to have less head feel. Balancing these shaft factors of flex, length, weight, balance point and bend point is the key to properly fitting a shaft to a player.


Ballooning is hitting a pop fly off the tee. Nowadays with bigger and taller drivers this phenomena does not happen too often unless you tee it up too high. Hope this helps.

[wahz]

ACtually, you are a right and wrong. A ballooning ball flight is caused by the driver producing too much back spin, which makes the ball climb, ie. like a ballon. Older titanium drivers were known for this because titanium puts a much larger spinrate on the ball, compared to steel. But companies have changed that problem with new technology.
You were right in that drivers nowadays don't balloon the ball. But it's because of their face construction and weight that produce a low spin shot, which creates a boring trajectory. Combined with a high launch this is the best way to get distance because the up-wind has less effect on the shot due to the ball's penetrating ball flight.

I bet you did not know that the TM 320 produces more spin than the 360. For people who hit a low ball, the extra spin rate benefits them instead of them altering their swing. It is much easier to hit a ball high with more backspin, than a higher loft. Where as the 360 was made to have a high launch but penetrating ball flight(This is knowledge given to me from the Taylor Made rep, not fabrication -- I work in a golf store, i have to know this)

[Chieflongtee]

Actually this is the first time I hear about Titanium creating more spin than steel. As far as I know drivers always weighed around 200 grams. Titanium being a lighter material allows for manufacturers to build taller and larger heads within the 200 gram weight.I would appreciate if you could find an article where it says that Titanium produces more backspin than steel.We should get MaxGolfer up here for some testing. And while I agree partly with the spin rate, if any golfer hits the ball with the crown part of the golf club then a balloon will follow therefore a taller face will help catch more of the ball. I have experienced this myself.(I also believe that skymarks on top of the club originate from such a shot). Also Jack the Bear Nicklaus used to recommend not to tee down the ball any lower in windy conditions(head wind) because doing so creates more backspin therefore more height. Thanks for sharing.

[wahz]

Look andre, i'm not looking for an argument. I"m just sharing what i know.
If you'd like to think that hitting a ballooning ball comes from roofing it off the crown plate, so be it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I've never hit my driver off the roof, so i don't know what type of ball flight it produces. But a pop-up is not the same as ballooning. Perhaps you are getting these two mixed up.
As for the jack recommendation, i think you were taking my statement a little out of context. I agree that hitting a drive thin produces extra spin. but that was not the point of my comment. If someone's tendacy is to hit a low ball flight, chances are they will want their next driver that will correct this tendacy, something that hits the ball a little higher since not every drive is hit into the wind. I was just simply stating that for someone who hits a low ball flight, a driver that produces alot of backspin would be a better choice, not taking into account the playing condition. When you find a course where EVERY hole is into the wind, let me know.

[TelUrMomISayThx]

Andre, just a quick question...if ballooning comes from hitting the ball off the crown, how do you explain ballooning off the irons?

The only way i see it is that it happens the same way wih a driver, there is ALOT OF BACKSPIN...

Using your theory, hitting it off the crown should produce less backspin, because there are no grooves. Which would produce a "pop-up", not "ballooning"

Thanks for the laugh, Andre

[tiger]

yo whaz....great points. this andre guy has no idea what he is talking about. i've seen pros hit ballooning shots but the last time i saw one hit one was the crown was never!!!! maybe he should learn to hit the clubface!!!!

[Kilroy]

Tiger; Please read the forum rules
http://www.ottawagolf.com/forum/show...=&threadid=699
Your post is only borderline, but I do not appreciate it. Refrain from insults please.

[Chieflongtee]

Originally posted by TelUrMomISayThx
Andre, just a quick question...if ballooning comes from hitting the ball off the crown, how do you explain ballooning off the irons?

The only way i see it is that it happens the same way wih a driver, there is ALOT OF BACKSPIN...

Using your theory, hitting it off the crown should produce less backspin, because there are no grooves. Which would produce a "pop-up", not "ballooning"

Thanks for the laugh, Andre

TelUrMomISayThx. Maybe I am mixing up the word ballooning and a pop up but if you balloon or pop up your irons it probably happens when the ball is in the heavy rough. I don't believe you can balloon an iron shot from the fairway if the ball is properly struck.
If you ever have a chance read golf club design, fitting, alteration & repair by Ralph Maltby.
I'll copy the paragraph:
#5 iron has the most backspin: A number of years ago a very prominent professional tour golfer made the statement that a properly struck 5 iron generated the greatest amount of backspin and would bite better than any other club. Obviously this is not so as the #6 iron will generate more backspin than the 5 and so will the #7 and#8 and so on.Simply the greater the loft the more backspin.
Do you know how long the ball rolls off the face. 5/10,000 of a second so if you believe that grooves have anything to do with it so be it . A #9 iron shot generates 8 to 10,000 revolutions per minute of backspin and a driver between 2 to 4000. So loft is the answer not facelines.
Wazh I was not trying to start an argument. I never read or heard that Titanium creates more backspin. And all I asked was some proof to back up your claim. I am not going to believe every salesman that walks in the door to push his stufff. That's all.
Tiger. All golfers have hit the roof of the club at least once in their lifetime. I hit it pretty solid myself but a taller face driver will reduce the odds of roofing it.
The only thing I will agree with is rearward centre of gravity on bigger clubheads which helps getting the ball airborne more easily.
And one last thing Tiger. I have seen pros hit spectators and I have seem them hit balloons and pop ups. Not very often but I have seen it. Ask around.

[big easy]

I agree with you André. It is a combination of multiple factors. In the time where first titanium drivers were released, shaft were like s... For those who had a Callaway GBB with the BBUL shaft knows what I'm talking about. These shafts had too much torque and to accomodate most of the players, the kickpoint was fairly low. The clubhead was opened at impact and instead of having a 8.5* it was more like a 10 maybe a 10.5*. This kind of shaft was clearly not suited for this kind of head. Furthermore, you have to put in the equation that most of the weight was located under the club. Everything was there to hit the ball pretty high and I would say most of the time, ballooning the ball.

Now, most of the shafts have improved to fit with these (huge!) clubheads. Believe me, take a Proforce 95 (2.0 torque and high kickpoint and some other UST products) and put it on every head and you will surely notice the difference. I would put in this category shafts like Aldila HM40 Tour, Harrison Titanium 2.5 and some Penley (Stealth for instance). Of course, the feeling is quite different but you will see a great difference with the stability of the clubhead at impact.

Another important thing is also due to the fact that most of the weight is now located behind the club face. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Ping Tist was one of the first to introduce this concept and it took the industry by storm. I'm my view, it is not the most beautiful product on the market but it is still one of the best driver. But still, the Aldila shaft is not the perfect shaft but it is reliable.

Conclusion: My point is that it really depends on the shaft. Shaft is the engine. When I demoed a Titleist 975J, I tried the original shaft and then the Graffaloy and the ProForce. It really makes a difference to reduce the ballooning effect.

:multi

[1972Apex]

I think we're getting a little to excited about the exact definition of the term 'ballooning'.
To me it's when you hit the ball too damn high into the wind - with any club or in any manner - and the wind lifts it, practically stops it and drops it far short of where you intended. That could be when you hit a big slice into the wind, hit it too high; pop it up a bit; put too much backspin on the ball -- whatever. One man's ballooning could be another man's popup.

[TelUrMomISayThx]

Big Easy, i'll give you credit. It's a known fact that shafts do affect the ball flight.

But andre, you really think the groves on clubs have little do with the shot and that spin on the ball comes from loft?Loft does affect the spin, but more side spin...Backspin generally comes from the groves on the face...That was a good laugh, possibly one of the most rediculous thing i've ever heard.
Does no-one remember the issue regarding Ping Eye 2's back in the day with BOX groves and how now that they are not legal for play?
Oh and a ballooning shot should is less likely to happen from the rough because there is more grass between the ball and the face WHICH CAN'T GET TO THE GROOVES, and is why alot of times you hit low runners out of it. Because the ball doesn't have enough spin to get airborn. Why else do you think it happens?
and Wahz, i agree with you. When titanium first came out, it naturally put more spin on the ball. Good luck on finding an article that old though But nowadays companies have perfected the use of titanium, so the higher spin rate is not as much of an issue, due to technology advances in design. But i believe that was the point you were trying to get across.
This is fun boys, i have to admit. It's crackn' me up.

[big easy]

Also, do not under estimate the impact of new balls on the market. The spin rate of a Titleist Balata is way higher than a ProV1 for instance. All this put together (new shafts) have certainly had on the "balloon effect".

Finally, there is a huge difference between a pop up and "balloon". I would say that most of the golfers aren't able to have "balloon effect" in the real meaning of the word. You really have to compress the ball with enough authority (e.g. high swing speed) to give enough spin off the club face to make the ball ballooning. There is also a huge difference between only hitting the ball too high and ballooning.

[wahz]

Andre, I agree that the loft of the club does affect the spin rate, in fact there are alot of factors that affect the spinrate and flight of a ball. but tell me this: If you do not think groves affect the spin rate of the ball, then why do companies put them on the club? For cosmetics?

Big easy, you are right. There seems to be two definitions of "ballooning" in this forum.
But the big thing with titanium was that it put more spin on the ball, so higher swing speeds is not really relevant. A higher swing speed will put more spin on the ball, but it is not neccessarily the only condition for a ballooning ball flight.
To me (and i think to most golfers), a ballooning ball flight is a ball that starts off low or a medium trajectory then all of a sudden starts climbing into the air, as opposed to a penetrating boring ball flight (which most drivers nowadays are designed to hit this type of flight with a high launch)


Is it just me or have be killed this thread? wha happened to the issue of your dream clubs?

[big easy]

I guess it is now the What is your dream ball flight???

Wahz, I agree with your definition of a "balloon" and its mine too. I agree also that these Titanium heads had the tendancy to put more spin. But, to really have a noticeable "balloon flight", you had to hit the ball fairly strong. I remember that for me, this was a real issue when I switched to this kind of club heads. I hit normally the ball about 260 yds in the air and I expect some roll (15 to 20 yards). With my GBB, I was able to hit the same distance but with no roll at all. With my new driver, I'm now able to have a nice boring flight with decent roll. (Viktory Driver 7.5* with UST ProForce 95 Stiff, 46 inches long). This is only my two cents...

[golfman71]

Proforged, thanks for the link - a lot of useful information there. Looks like I opened up a can of worms asking about the term "ballooning"... it's amazing how passionate golfers can be about even one simple term in the game. I guess that's part of what makes the sport so great.

I didn't mean to take my own thread so far off topic. But, I suppose the whole idea of a "dream set" of golf clubs is first knowing what makes them the right set!

Proforged, the issue of weight distribution in the shaft is interesting to me. I couldn't find anywhere in that fitting primer where it describes 'kick point' though. I've been asking about the Aldila ONE shaft lately - someone told me Aldila had a new shaft on the market and in talking about it, I was compelled to learn more about the differences between various shaft types. The ONE shaft is graphite, has three different tip flexes and I think has a fairly stiff butt. Aside from that, I can't tell much about weight distribution. Can you tell by looking at the specs if it has a high flex point or a low flex point, or how the weight might be distributed? - http://www.aldila.com/product6.html - maybe the understanding will come easier for me once I've learned it with a single shaft first.

[1972Apex]

Hi Golfman:

While I'd love to take credit for it, I believe it was Andre Cantin who provided the link for the shaft specifications.
As for flexpoint and kickpoint, I guess I use them interchangeably - it's the point where maximum bending of the shaft occurs in the swing.
I'd love to interpret the shaft specifications for you but I think you would be better off speaking to a custom clubmaker who can do a better job than I can. A good clubmaker can measure your swingspeed and tempo and give a pretty good idea of what flexpoint, stiffness etc. will suit your swing.
Trying different shafts and flexes until you find one that fits you also works, but it can get pretty expensive - trust me, I know...

[Chieflongtee]

Amongst few notables in the golf component industry: The Paul brothers(Golfsmith) Jeff Jackson(Dynacraft) and Ralph Maltby(Golfworks). John Kaufman
1) If grooves are so important to backspin why then does the Nemesis 370-c come with no grooves at all?
2)Why is it that more and more drivers come with no scoring lines in the sweetspot?
3)From Jeff Jackson:
Bend point has little effect on actual ball flight, but does have a noticeable effect on club feel. Lower bend point shafts will feel softer and will create a club with more head feel. Higher bend shafts will feel stiffer and will tend to have less head feel. Balancing these shaft factors of flex, length, weight, balance point and bend point is the key to properly fitting a shaft to a player.
4) How do you explain the following comment from TV commentators?: He could not stop it because he had to come in with a pitching wedge.
5)From Maltby:
During a business school, one for P.G.A apprentices, I was delivering my standard opening remarks, one part of which is to go through 6 or 7 of the most common myths in golf. a student raised his hand and asked me if I would actually play with a set of clubs that had no face lines since I had just remarked that face lines do not create or improve backspin. I answered yes, but admitted that up until now I had only conducted a number of hitting tests but had not actually played with them. So I built myself a complete set of irons #1 through pitching wedge with no face lines . I did not play with any other iron for two years and during that time my handicap went from 6 to 5. Admittedly I did get a few disbelieving stares and comments like, "How can you make the ball stop with those irons? The irons were well received after a round when they went to the cleaning area.

Maltby goes on:basically, here is how backspin is generated. Coming into impact, the clubhead is moving forward or near parallel to the ground. This is the direction of the clubhead's force which is a product of the clubhead mass times acceleration or speed. At impact, the ball is struck by the face of the club which has a certain loft angle. Backspin is created by the difference in the angle the ball is launched(loft plane) to that of the force direction of the clubhead. The greater this difference(more loft) the greater the amount of backspin. It was once thought that backspin was created by the ball rolling up the face during impact, but high speed photography has disproved this.

As far as Titanium creating greater backspin I will enquire on the Golfsmith's forum and get back to you. Wrong or right I will copy the answer.

Now why does the U.S.G.A & R&A have a rule governing the face lines on all irons regardless of loft and woods with more than 24 degrees of loft?

I will give you the answer later but I bet none of you smarties know the answer. Ignorance is bliss they say.
I did not reinvent the wheel nor the french fries machine but I know one thing. I would rather believe the notables than some of the "Ti-Jos connaisseur" from this thread.

[TelUrMomISayThx]

Judging from your comment that groves do not affect spin, and that a ballooning ball flight comes from a mi off the crown, you are not one to talk.

AS for your questions:
1 &2) Drivers nowadays have less scoring lines because that allows the club to put less backspin on the ball, causing a more penetrating ball flight.
WHY WOULD YOU WANT BACKSPIN ON YOUR DRIVER? There's nothing better than hitting it 280 on the fly, then juicing it back 5 yards...that's what i look for in a drive.
Backspin is impossible not to have in a shot, it's getting the right design to minimize it.
4) They say that because wedges put the most back spin on the ball. Like i said before, loft is a determining factor for spin, but so are the groves (which you seem to claim don't affect the spin, due to its miniscule time touching the face)
5) Sounds like maltby is beating around the bush, when asked how he stops a ball on the green without groves. Probably because he couldn't answer it. Tell me, how did he stop the ball without groves?
I'm not denying that loft is relevant to the spin on a ball. Because i know that it does affect it. But it's not the only factor. What i don't agree with, nor does the physics of golf, is that you claim groves serve no purpose for spin on balls.
How come you didn't answer my question? Why did Ping have to redesign their Eye2 irons due to their grooves? they were creating too much spin.

Are there any pros playing the "nemesis" driver? no? hmmm. I wonder why that is? I don't know of this driver you are talking about but i'm willing to bet that the reason it has no groves is because the titanium is not as high grade as the stuff OEMs use, and therefore have to make the face thicker so that it doesn't crack. Since it's a thicker face, there's less COR effect, and therefore they can afford to take out the scoring lines without being deemed illegal.

And don't bother say that guys aren't playing the driver because of sponsorship money. If it's a good driver, no matter what brand, they will use it. They will use whatever it takes to get beat tiger.

[Colby]

Here are some interesting findings...

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall...itts/club.html

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/golf.html

[Happy Gilmore]

Just to make an analogy about grooves, look at car tires. In the summer in ideal conditions you can drive tires that are almost bald and get exceptional traction on a clean surface. Now take these same tires and race them around town in the pouring rain, or after a 2cm snowfall, the control goes right out the window, or into the ditch. Tires with tread (Grooves) allow the abnormal material such as water, dirt and snow to be channeled away from the flat tread that touches the road.

I believe that with golf clubs the grooves assist on imparting spin on the golf ball only by allowing the grass / water / dirt between the ball and the club face to go some place other than between the ball and the face. This allows the smooth part of the face to make contact with the ball much cleaner and impart more spin.

As for the SMT Nemisis driver head, this is a relatively new head on the market designed for and won the world long drive contest this year. It took into consideration the comments of LD competitors to provide a club where the face won't crack after a few hits. You probably have not heard of it because you are blindly happy with OEM products. http://www.smtgolf.com will let you look at the club and read about the quality materials that are used to build this club.

BTW, if OEM products are better, why didn't they place highly in the World long drive comp. I'm not saying that the measure of a club is it's placing in the World Long Drive Comp. or the prominence on tour, just that you have to take into consideration the amount of $$$$$ that the pros are paid to play the OEM products.

"If it's a good driver, no matter what brand, they will use it."
Even if it is really good, the OEM one pays them when they are not using it, the component head can't do that.

[Chieflongtee]

Colby thanks for the link however this is untrue.

The drivers have a club head significantly heavier than that of any of the other clubs.


The driver has actually the lightest clubhead in the set and the sand/lob the heaviest.