Puring

[Chieflongtee]

I don't necessarily agree but for the sake of the argument click on the link below.

http://www.leaderboard.com/GLOSSARY_PURING

http://recp.rm05.net/servlet/MailVie...MzE5MDUS1&mt=1

http://www.golfsmith.com/cm/display_...CID=C16027x015

[RoyalQ]

Puring, Spining, FLO'ing, I've been spending many, m-a-n-y hours reading about these in the last three years & still confused. AS ARE a lot of tech heads posting in specialized forums (Spinetalkers, Shoptalk, etc.).
I'd rather have my shafts flo'ed, then if I hit a poor shot I know for sure it's the player and NOT the equipment! (like if I needed that!!)
Anyway, thanks for providing a link to that website, looks good.

[Chieflongtee]

Puring, Spining, FLO'ing, I've been spending many, m-a-n-y hours reading about these in the last three years & still confused. AS ARE a lot of tech heads posting in specialized forums (Spinetalkers, Shoptalk, etc.).
I'd rather have my shafts flo'ed, then if I hit a poor shot I know for sure it's the player and NOT the equipment! (like if I needed that!!)
Anyway, thanks for providing a link to that website, looks good.

Dear RoyalQ.
A year has gone by already and in retrospect I realise that you were right about FLO. Flo will help you find the true spine. In all honesty I only see 1 setback with your method. If there are 2 FLO planes then when you go through the FLOing process using the drill chuck method how do go go about finding which FLO is the NBP and which one is the spine. Anyway I just wanted you to know that I underestimated you and want to thank you for helping me in my search for better clubs.

[pagman]

Spining ...flo'ing...blah...blah...blah...If you want to shoot under 85 consistently....spend your practice time around the greens with your wedges and putter....practice your short games...can a clubfitter help you with that!!!!

For all you club fitting guru's...can you spine or flo your putter? Ha! Ha!

[natgolfer]

Spining ...flo'ing...blah...blah...blah...If you want to shoot under 85 consistently....spend your practice time around the greens with your wedges and putter....practice your short games...can a clubfitter help you with that!!!!

For all you club fitting guru's...can you spine or flo your putter? Ha! Ha!

Cynic.

The answers to your questions are, "Yes," and "Yes," however, considering your ...blah...blah...blah... from above, somehow, I don't think that you will believe me.

Roughly a year ago when this thread started, I, like Andre, had some knowledge of spining, FLOing, PUREing, and in the last year, by doing a lot of reading/research, taking part in the various technical forums(Spinetalkers, Shoptalk and the like) I/we have learned a lot more. There are people out there who are engineers and who have made shaft analysis a hobby and in some cases a business. Names like John Kaufman, Dave Tutleman, Tom Wishon, may be unfamiliar to some, however, they are the experts in the field and highly respected. They have conducted tests of different kinds, some will real live golfers, and while not all agree, there is much consensus amongst them all that I have been able to pick up:
1. few shafts are well made, but improvement is starting to show up in a few manufacturers product lines
2. orientation of a shaft in a head in one of the currently accepted alignment positions will improve the quality of shots golfers hit, all other things being equal.
3. NBP to target (9:00 o'clock) is the alignment most commonly used.
4. when buying off the rack equipment, you do not get what you pay for.

Early in the spring, some testing will be done to determine the significance of spine aligning shafts and what orientation works better. It is my understanding that the NBP to COG alignment is not part of this test, according to the current testing procedure plan, the link for which is below.
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/draft1.html


While it's obvious that working on the short game will improving scoring, with properly selected and assembled shafts, ball striking will improve, too, but it will be less discernible to some.

[pagman]

I guess I should take back some of the comments regarding fine tuning shafts as I do believe there is some merit. I think I'm just getting fed up of you clubmakers knocking the OEM's. Are you trying to tell me that engineers/designers like Tom Stites(Nike),Chris Mcginley/Bob Vokey(Titleist), Dr. Benoit Vincent (Taylormade) or Richard Helmstetter (Callaway) don't know what they are doing? Helmstetter (and Ely for that matter) at Callaway revolutionized the game.

Can you explain to me why this component stuff from KZG, Snake Eyes, Maltby, XPC etc. all seems to come out after the OEM products. As far as I'm concerned they are nothing but clones ( I won't say knock offs as even I know that they are better quality than the knock offs). There is no engineering or design behind these components, they look exactly like the OEM stuff.

You see posts in the Want to buy classifieds of this website where someone wants OEM product X, and along comes one of the clubmakers trying to push " I can build you a cheaper version of the OEM with component Y". Enough of that nonsense!!!

Going back to the shafts.....True Temper Dynamic Gold have been around for probably 40 years and I think are still the #1 selling iron shaft in golf. I've used them for years and currently have a set in my Titleist 762's (which I purchased after a simple fitting session which involved face and sole tape and a plastic board). Those unspined, unpured, unfloed shafts and that head perform better than any other iron I've ever played. With my 8.0 index (of which I have intentions of lowering), I, like a lot of the other members of this forum ( and a lot of tour pros for that matter) will not get caught up in this hi tech shaft tuning stuff and rather concentrate on swing mechanics and good short game skills.

To think what Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, Sam Snead, Jack, Arnie missed because their shafts weren't spined and pured. Maybe Greg Norman could have won the elusive green jacket with some flo'ed shafts.

[Marmotte]

Spining ...flo'ing...blah...blah...blah...If you want to shoot under 85 consistently....spend your practice time around the greens with your wedges and putter....practice your short games...can a clubfitter help you with that!!!!

For all you club fitting guru's...can you spine or flo your putter? Ha! Ha!

Funny you asked... A spined putter shaft is more consistant ! I tried it and it works... As for wedges, it is a must to get a consistant set.

[BC MIST]

Funny you asked... A spined putter shaft is more consistant ! I tried it and it works... As for wedges, it is a must to get a consistant set.

I agree but how do you spine a double bend shaft?

Perhaps spining several of them until you find one with the NBP in the desired location.

[Chieflongtee]

Thanks to Natgolfer I understand the language of spines/puring a lot better now. However just like you if I were to buy a set of Michelins or any sets of tires I'd rather have them balanced before I hit the road.
BTW how cold is it in Québec city these days?[

[Chieflongtee]

RoyalQ. Floing is the last step of the process and should be done after finding the spine for final tuning

To really understand what it's all about please read the following article. I had to read it many times over but I finally got it through that thick skull of mine.
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/spines.html

BTW: Golfworks and Golfsmith now offer pre-pured shafts.

http://www.golfworks.com/item_disp.asp?pn=2201WR

http://www.golfsmith.com/ppage.php

[RoyalQ]

Thanks, but no thanks! Been there, read it all long time ago & realized it's not for me.
3 years ago I was shoothing 70-75's and knew nothing about a shaft's torque, its Neutral bending point, 1, 2 or 3, Moment of inertia, all that stuff. This is stuff for the pro clubmaker and technically oriented, not me.
Now that I've spent all this time at the computer trying to decipher all that info, my hdc has gone way up. I'm still maniac about my golf clubs, but for me it's time to concentrate on my swing again!
Buy quality clubs that I like to look at in my bag and that fit me, that's about it.
And, if you don't mind, me think you think you understand it all but you don't. You need to read more to realize that
Finally, in another post you provide a link
http://www.customclubshop.com/accessories.html

where they advertise a $149. device. What a joke, a $2.50 laser you can find in any drugstore, a $8 chuck drill, hmmm, go for it if you have a lot of cash to spare... (I know, I showed my clubmaker how to build one & now he does it for me!!)

[Chieflongtee]

RoyalQ. Me don't know it all, me learning, me a hobbyist. Me like to find out more about it. Me student and me never shot 70-75 and most of all me no cash to throw away
Below is part of an email I received from an experienced clubmaker about Floing:


quote:
This device permits you to FLO(Flat Line Oscillation) golf shafts, as in their photos and will allow to be able to align the shaft in the head in its most stable position. This is great. However, a shaft may have more than one FLO plane and you don't know whether you have found the spine plane or the NBP plane. I want to know this so if I have a choice as to how to align the shaft, the NBP plane will face the target. End of quote.

The link you mentionned was amongst other links as well so we all could be better informed. As I recall I also mentionned I was confused. I am not as confused now and I will keep reading about it and experiment. I did not buy the item from the customclub shop. I appreciate the tip about the drill chuck although after my post someone else basically replied the same thing. Any good links that I am not aware of that you could suggest.These are the links I was refering to in the battle between ParT and Natgolfer.
http://www.spinefinder2.com/


http://www.clubmaker-online.com/spinefinder.html

http://www.peacefulstreet.com/HalesAssociates/Index.htm

http://www.golfmechanix.com/APN-text.htm

http://www.customclubshop.com/accessories.html

http://www.skfiber.com/kaufman.htm

http://www.accumade.com/neutralizer/neutralizeme.html

You can also make a shaft puller for a fraction of the cost

[golfdoc]

I have played my entire life with off the rack clubs. No bending, no changing lies and lofts, no aligning the spines of the shafts.

Develop a good golf swing. Something fundamentally strong. Unless you are really tall or really short, you don't need big adjustments.

I have 3 sets of irons that I use. They are all different. One is regular steel, one is regular graphite, one is stiff steel. One is oversize with an offset on the long irons, one is a cavity back forged set and one is a progressive forged set. The lofts are all different I am sure. They all work for me. One hits it longer, one hits it higher.

My point is, good golfers can play with any set of clubs. Stop worrying about all this technical crap. Work on your swing!

[Chieflongtee]

Golfdoc I understand where you're coming from but this debate is much like the chiro vs the doctor. The clubmaker vs the retailer. Who's right who's wrong?
Amongst your three sets there is certainly one that you prefer over another and there is surely one club that you like more or have more confidence in.Why is that? If you had to play in a tournament today which set would you pick? If you had to play a whole round with only one club which one would you choose?
How many times have you heard the following complaint: I can't hit that 8 iron for the life of me. Yet the same golfer hits the 7 and 9 iron from the same set quite well. How do you explain that?
I agree that a good sound swing is part of the equation but if you can have superior tools as well I say why not.
Although golf is a lot different than tennis I at one time owned 2 or 3 racquets of the same make with different feels although strung by the same guy with the same pressure.
Spining/puring may be a lot of bologna but the object is to make each club in the bag feel like your favorite club.
If all clubs and all makes get the job done so why not buy Northwestern off the rack and invest the rest of the money saved elsewhere?

[golfdoc]

I agree, if you get the job done, why not buy Northwestern. The fact is, a cheap set of clubs will not perform, because the shafts are weak and the materials in the clubface are weak.

A good set of clubs off the rack will do just fine. Maybe the length needs to be adjusted, or the lie slightly.

In my opinion, if you are anywhere from 5'7 to 6'1 tall, the length should be ok.

If you can hit one club better than another, odds are it is completely in your head. You probably hit some bad shots with that club and have no confidence in it. If you are a golfer who shoots in the 80's or higher, you probably never put two identical swings on the ball in a row. If you use your 8 iron 4 times in a round and only hit it well once, it's not because the spine of the shaft is wrong.

It is your swing and lack of consistency.

[RoyalQ]

I feel like we're coming to a clear conclusion here.

Having your shafts pured, spine aligned and flo'ed, having all the clubs in your bag "blueprinted" will help you feel more confident standing over the ball.

And it will definitely make you feel helpless & miserable if you shank, slice or duckhook one into some bush! No more excuse!

[Chieflongtee]

Miserable indeed. I totally agre with you RoyalQ on that one. However given the choice I will build my own set of clubs for less than $400. and the shafts will be floed/pured etc.. As you said if I screw up then well then I'll have to blame the fellow on the tractor who distracted me .
There will always be a market for both that is retail(off the rack) and components(clubmakers).
But could you just see it. So and so just won his first major with Canada cup balls northwestern clubs and zellers tennis shoes?
Have a great day

[el tigre]

Every time I hear a clubmaker say "Ever wonder why your favourite club is _______? Don't you want all your clubs to be like that?", then I know I'm being conned!

The majority of golfers I've met would say their favourite club is their 7-iron. The reason for that is because ...

...it's a 7-iron! A short-iron that you can hit for some distance - a scoring club with the right combination of length & loft for most golfers, who are often in a position to hit a 7-iron after their average drive on an average-length course. There is no amount of spining, puring or blueprinting that will make me hit a 3-iron as well as a 7-iron. I believe that the benefits, if any, of these techniques would be imperceptible to the vast majority of golfers.

OTOH golfdoc, equipment DOES make a difference - and off-the-rack is not for everybody. The human body comes is all different shapes and sizes, and the benefits of clubfitting (i.e., choosing proper shaft material, length, flex, weight, etc.) have been proven. As you say, developing a good swing is far more important - but having clubs that are too long/short/stiff/heavy will hinder that process because you are making swing adjustments to compensate for ill-fitting equipment.

BTW, shaft length is generally determined by distance from your wrist to the floor - not by total height. Off-the-racks clubs make work just fine for a tall person with long arms, but not for someone of medium height with long arms. Even this is only a guide - i.e., someone with a shallower but consistant and repeatable swing may benefit from slightly longer clubs.

[BC MIST]

Every time I hear a clubmaker say "Ever wonder why your favourite club is _______? Don't you want all your clubs to be like that?", then I know I'm being conned.

Until I understood what the purpose of asking the above question I would have been a sceptic, too, however, now that I have learned some about the "why," and have assembled two sets of irons from the results of this question, I have become a believer.

Instead of the above question I would ask, "With what iron do you consistently hit your best shots?" As my favourite club is my driver and my favourite shot is a short, high, flop shot, neither of these two clubs would be used to make a matched set of irons.

I chose my 8 iron, matched all the other irons to it, in terms of total weight, balance point, MOI and so on. Swingweight was not a factor. With about 15 games under my belt with these clubs, the most discernible difference is in the 3,4,5 irons. I have never hit these clubs consistently well over the years, and now, all of a sudden, I can. I blame this improvement on the clubs which now "swing" and feel, just like my 8 iron.

Don't you want all your clubs to be like that?", then I know I'm being conned! If a clubmaker made this statement to me and assembled a swingweight matched set, then, yes, I would be being conned. However, if they were going to be MOI matched, instead, then I would know that I was going to get clubs that would be better matched than off the rack stuff is. It is good to be sceptial about some of the things that one hears these days, but I am glad I have an open mind, too, because my ball striking has benefited from it.

The only "What is your favourite club?" clubmaker that I know of is Eric Cook from Swing Sync. If I could not do the assembly myself, and could afford it, I would have him make my clubs, because I know that the product would be good, and that I would not be being conned.

I just wish my putter was my favourite club, for the right reasons.

[golfdoc]

I agree. Proper length is based on distance from wrists to floor. Having done clubfitting in the past, I understand.

The fact is, off the rack clubs are made for the average person.

The fact is, a good golfer could walk into any golf store and play well with almost any set off the wall.

I am not talking about cheap sets. I am talking about standard length, standard loft quality golf clubs, because these are made for the average person, and that is most of us.

We all have a favourite club. It is because we have confidence in it and its length is ideal for our swing. I can stand and hit my Adams i-wood all day long right down the middle. Why? Because I am comfortable with it.

Do I know how the shaft is aligned? No
Do I know the swingweight? No
Do I care? No

Do I hit a 3 iron? No
Why? Because I find it long and awkward, and have no confidence, not because of the spine!

[el tigre]

Golfdoc: Totally agree with you. I am only saying that a good golfer would play BETTER with clubs that were fitted to their game.

Andre: When I screw up, I know who's fault it is. I also know why I screwed up, and how I can do better - and none of this has anything to do with my golf clubs. It's the golfer.

[natgolfer]

If I had the option of buying a set of off the rack Mizuno irons from CB's for $1100 with TT DG S300 shafts, that are too short for my long arms and with the heads too upright for my swing, versus making myself a set of Proforged blades that I have extended .75" and lies flattened 2 degrees, which gives me the greater probabiility of hitting a good shot?

If I had the option of using shafts that have been spined and oriented correctly into the head versus ones that have been thrown into the heads like darts, which gives me the greater probability of hitting good shots?

If golfdoc and other naysayers had the option of using steel shafts that are bent versus those that are straight, which gives them the greater probability of hitting good shots? (Boys-they are all bent. But my NF2 spinefinder can find out which ones are bent and by how much. Can CB's tell you that?)

Will the off the rack Titleist 9 whatever's all perform the same if the weight difference between the heads is not consistent, if all lofts do not increase by a constant amount, if all shafts are not trimmed in the same manner? I have diassembled a set of these and you would not believe how out of whack this set was. And for that I am to pay for $1000 for clubs that look pretty? Never!!!
BTW: 3 of the shafts tips were not "sanded" before assembly.

My research has shown that spining and proper orientation of the shaft in the head is beneficial. There is obviously biased research, ie., Golfsmith, however, there is also independent research that confirms the benefit. Howard Butler of True Temper, has proven that spining helps significantly, regardless of ability or handicap level. Just FLO one shaft in the improper plane to see how quickly it goes off plane and at least it should make you ask the obvious question.

I agree that working on you swing is paramount and making all the technical adjustments will not make you a scratch player, but it will increase the probability of better results. Why are PGA Tour pros having their clubs PUREd in increasing numbers, if it does not have merit? And please don't give me the obvious inane answer.

If you percieve/believe that off the rack clubs are all that you need, then that is your reality, go play golf and have fun. However, my reality, based on experience, proves otherwise and I don't appreciate being told by those who obviously know very little and who have not experienced the benefits of spining, that we are wrong. If after doing extensive "homework" on the topic and experiencing spined and unspined clubs, you still disagree, I can respect that, otherwise an opinion based on ignorance is just that.

I appreciate golfers like Andre whose minds are open and who are curious and willing to become informed first, before passing judgement.

[golfdoc]

Maybe it makes a big difference.

The fact is, if you can't hit the ball, you can't hit the ball. I can see why the pro's and low handicap players worry so much. If you shoot in the high-80's and up, the clubs are not the problem.

I do not believe that a golfers shooting in the 90's is consistent enough to even consider changing lofts and lies. Their swing speed will be almost as inconsistent as their scoring. Spending extra time tinkering with all of this is time wasted until you have a consistent swing.

If you start making changes to your clubs, you will never stop, unless you fix your swing!

I can admit that I do not know the specifics and flaws of off the rack clubs. That is all I have used, and I am a 5 handicap. They are not top of the line clubs and they are not cheap clubs.

[natgolfer]

Golfdoc said
1. Maybe it makes a big difference.

The differences may be subtle, however, the sum total of these may be significant

2. The fact is, if you can't hit the ball, you can't hit the ball. I can see why the pro's and low handicap players worry so much. If you shoot in the high-80's and up, the clubs are not the problem.

If the clubs don't fit properly, they are part of the problem, regardless of the player's level. The differences are more obvious, however, with the better player.

3. I do not believe that a golfers shooting in the 90's is consistent enough to even consider changing lofts and lies.

If a poor golfer happens by chance to make a perfect swing, he will never know it, if the lies are not properly adjusted. During the summer I installed a new set of shafts in my blades and went to the 19th Tee to dynamically check the lies. I was hitting balls over two 100 yard signs that were adjacent to each other and all clubs hit the ball straight except for one, that started the ball over the left edge of the sign and then curved left a little. Every time I came back to it the same thing happened. I went home, flattened the lie 2 degrees and when I returned there 2 days later the ball with that club went straight. IMO, having the correct lie angle is the fitting characteristic that is the most important. When you but an off the rack set at CB'e do they offer to check the lie angle for you? Thought so.

4. Spending extra time tinkering with all of this is time wasted until you have a consistent swing.

Getting clubs properly fitted at the outset makes it significantly easier to improve, because you know that it will not be because of a poorly fitted club, that you hit lousy shots.

5. If you start making changes to your clubs, you will never stop. unless you fix your swing!

As I said above, get properly fitted clubs first, then work on your swing.

6.I can admit that I do not know the specifics and flaws of off the rack clubs.

If you did, you would go to a knowledgeable club fitter right away. But because most golfers want to play the clubs that ______plays, they buy off the rack, thinking that if they are good enough for _____, they are good enough for me. When most golfers look at a new set of clubs, where do they look? At the back of the head. If they look pretty, they must be good. However, I agree that you must like the way they set up to the ball at address. Before learning about spining I had 10 graphite
shafts PUREd by Golfsmith. The worst of the bunch was a UST ProForce 65, a very popular, expensive, highly marked, but crappy shaft. The next two poor ones were Graffalloy Pro Elite and Prolite 35, again popular shafts. If inexpensive, "poor/cheap" shafts are aligned properly, they will play as well as an expensive one.

7. That is all I have used, and I am a 5 handicap. They are not top of the line clubs and they are not cheap clubs.

As a 5 you are better than 98% of all those who play golf and you also know what a good shot/swing feels like, particularly if you play with forged clubs. I would wager that that if I took your present clubs, pulled the shafts, spined them, reassembled them correctly, then checked your lie angles dynamically and adjusted them if required, that your jaw would drop because of the improvement in feel and performance. But if I did that I would not have to give you 4 shots.


Regardless of whether we agree on spining, lie checking, etc., or not, it's obvious that we just love to play and that is the most important thing.

[Chieflongtee]

Well spoken Natgolfer as always and not to take anything away from you I'd like to ask Golfdoc a few questions.
Golfdoc: You mentioned in a previous post that you had three sets.
Which one do you prefer and why? Isn't it confusing to choose amongst 3 sets on a given day as to which one will allow you to perform at your peak level?
If spining allowed you to shave off 3 or 4 strokes off your handicap would you be willing to try it?
You also mentioned wrist to floor measurement. I believe the dynamic method is by far better because it reveals how accurate a particular golfer is. I don't believe a taller golfer needs longer clubs especially if he's not very athletic and has a hard time hitting the sweetspot on a regular basis. The decal method reveals it all. For a cheap way to make impact decals please see:
http://www.clubmaker-online.com/stickers.html

As for myself I will take this all the way and start from scratch with this basic cheap assembly and experiment with steel shafts first because there is only one spine and one NBP(neutral bending point).See below.

[Chieflongtee]

I am going to start experimenting with this. From:
http://www.csfa.com/techframe.htm

[Chieflongtee]

And finally with this. Thanks to Natgolfer who provided all those links to me and great advice. I don't know if all of this will help me but one thing I know for sure: Before injectors we had carburators and before curved hockey sticks we had straight blades. If I don't succeed at building the Nf2 then I'll ask Natgolfer to do it for me. BUT I WILL GIVE IT A TRY.

[Chieflongtee]

from:http://dalecki.net/clubdoctor/shop.html

It does it all:


Below shows a Neufinder, a device used for finding and marking the spines and neutral bending points (NBPs) on shafts. The gauge on the left is accurate to 1/1000th of an inch, allowing for exceedingly accurate determination of spines and NBPs.

[el tigre]

Why are PGA Tour pros having their clubs PUREd in increasing numbers, if it does not have merit?

PGA Tour pros do not pay for their clubs, and while their is scant evidence of any noticeable benefits of puring, the theory behind it is plausable and there is no evidence that it would actually do any harm. So if something would a) at worse make no difference to my clubs, b) might improve them, and c) cost me nothing - why wouldn't I try it? When one these pros starts telling us how PUREd clubs made a noticeable difference in his game, then maybe I'll consider it. Maybe.

The point is, golfers are being asked to shell out hard-earned $$$ for this stuff, based on a theory and some anecdotal evidence from the guys who sell it. Let's face it, no other sport has more has more gimmicks, gadgets, systems, techniques and "voodoo" science than golf (well, maybe fishing, but I digress...) - and all of this stuff is "absolutely guaranteed" to provide better golf through technology. Most of this stuff is untested and pure baloney. You can't blame golfers for being skeptical about the "latest and greatest" discovery on puring.

I have no problem with people tinkering on their own clubs in their basement workshop. But when Golfsmith and Golfworks start selling this stuff without any evidence that it actually works - I have a problem with that. You are supposed to do the product testing FIRST - then roll out the PR and marketing.

Maybe it actually works. But until the merits of puring or spining have been thoroughly tested and shown to make a noticeable improvement with a wide range of golfers, then you're just selling sizzle without the steak. Meanwhile, I'll improve my game the old-fashioned way - practice, lessons and experience.

[Chieflongtee]

El Tigre.

please read this:

http://www.sstpure.com/butler.html