Ottawa Citizen Amateur Championship - Round 1 Men's - results

[upanddown]

im playing in the tournament but not a member anywhere. I know a pro who knows my ablility and was able to vouch for my handicap.

[el tigre]

I sure hope Farzin is not the litigious type...

Why? What does he have to sue somebody about?

[Sakuraba]

Its slander if its spoken, but I guess on an internet forum its libel, right?

[1972Apex]

Well, let`s see, the guy`s being called a liar and a cheat in a public forum. Works for me.

[zoic]

Some of these comments seem to me to be a violation of the forum FAQ and Rules.

While debating and discussion is the purpose of this board, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters. If you attack someone, don't be surprised if you find yourself banned. If you find yourself opposed to another person's post; debate, do not argue. Above all be polite and respectful of others. Threads that degrade into a head-butting contest will be closed and the participants will receive a warning. This rule especially applies to arguments where it boils down to just trying to get the "Last word".

[el tigre]

Well, let`s see, the guy`s being called a liar and a cheat in a public forum. Works for me.

Have you never read QBVII by Leon Uris? The bottom line is: its not libel or slander if its true.

The guy listed himself as a member of Greyhawk when apparantly he is not. He listed his index as 7.2 when it is really much higher and above the minimum level required to enter the tournament. He just shot his PB round of 77 at the tournament - so clearly his index was not 7.2 before he entered it. If that's not called lying and cheating, then what do you call it?

I know Farzin and have played golf with him several times. I congratulate him on shooting a personal best score - but that doesn't negate the fact that what he did was wrong. A true friend would tell him that.

[Kilroy]

Questioniing a players status, and discussing the rules of entry as it pertains to eligibilty is not outside the rules of the forum. If it is within the rules of the event for a player without an official RCGA handicap to have a Pro vouch for his playing ability, (it says official / authorized whatever that is) and the pro does so in good concience, then there is no cheating here. Personally I don't know how to interperate "official / authorized "

To come out and call someone a cheater without absolute certainty could be considered libalous, is insulting and thus violates the forum rules.

Please let's not go there again or we'll have to close the thread.

[1972Apex]

Have you never read QBVII by Leon Uris? The bottom line is: its not libel or slander if its true.

The guy listed himself as a member of Greyhawk when apparantly he is not. He listed his index as 7.2 when it is really much higher and above the minimum level required to enter the tournament. He just shot his PB round of 77 at the tournament - so clearly his index was not 7.2 before he entered it. If that's not called lying and cheating, then what do you call it?

I know Farzin and have played golf with him several times. I congratulate him on shooting a personal best score - but that doesn't negate the fact that what he did was wrong. A true friend would tell him that.

Terry, I was a newspaper editor for 17 years. I think I know the law. Regardless, your comments about your 'friend' are uncalled for. If you have a problem with him, I would suggest you tell him to his face... not in a public forum.

[up&down]

I've played with lots of golfers with sub 8 indexes who are quite capable of going over 90 in a tournament.

I've shot 100 at eagle creek one time as a 3 handicap. Nothing was going right that day and i ended up finishing last! some days are like that and i've grown up to battle through those games when things aren't going you're way!!

[Sakuraba]

It would be very easy for a golfer (Especially one who shot 77 in the opening round of the citizen) to have his index drop from 10 to 6 or 7 in a matter of days. In a matter of rounds, really.

[mberube]

It would be very easy for a golfer (Especially one who shot 77 in the opening round of the citizen) to have his index drop from 10 to 6 or 7 in a matter of days. In a matter of rounds, really.

I don’t believe that. To drop to a 6 or a 7 from a 10.8 you would need more then a couple of rounds in the low 70’s. If he was to play let’s say 70 (-2) he would not drop more then 1 point. Your handicap is the average of your 10 best games in your last 20 rounds.

The probability of him playing three rounds under 76 is way out there.

[Sakuraba]

At the very most, he'd have to play 10 rounds @ 80 on an average sloped par 72 course. That doesn't seem inpossible to me for a guy capable of posting a 77 in rd 1 of the citizen. It could be done in a week.

[Shivas Irons]

I'd like to see them just scrap the index part and raise the entry fee to $250+.

[up&down]

his 77 does not suprise me for a 10 handicap.

Predator's rating is too high. Talon is atleast 3 shots harder!

a 3 handicap at Rivermead would be a scratch at Greyhawk!

[up&down]

I'd like to see them just scrap the index part and raise the entry fee to $250+.

They'd be lucky to get 80 entries at that price! it may work in a big city like Toronto but not here

[Shivas Irons]

I think if the prizes were in line with the entry fee you could easily get 144 golfers to go for it. What it would do is eliminate the reverse sandbaggers that know they don't have a prayer of winning.

[up&down]

I think if the prizes were in line with the entry fee you could easily get 144 golfers to go for it. What it would do is eliminate the reverse sandbaggers that know they don't have a prayer of winning.

Prizes would help, but they would need a greater support from sponsors (Tommy & Lefebvre/Buick)..thing is amateur tournaments are all about competition/fun

also, the organizers know the players well as most players play in the OVGA A class events. Some may have snuck in but thats what you end up getting to fill the maximum amount of entries!

[jvincent]

I've said this before, but what they really need to do for the Citizen is "ban" people who don't shoot withing N strokes of their handicap from entering the tournament for 2 years.

N should be a reasonable number, like say 10. This would mean that if you were a legitimate 6 or better, you'd have to shoot over 90 to be banned. Yes, it's possible as a 6 to throw a real stinker out there, but under benign conditions it should be easy to shoot below 90 at all of the courses in the tournament. And if you do manage to shoot over 90 as a 6 handicap, well suck it up and get better for the next time.

This is what the USGA does for it's tournaments and is a very nice way to get rid of the reverse baggers. I think N=4 for them though.

[stinger]

jvincent, do you play tournament golf?

[jvincent]

jvincent, do you play tournament golf?

I'd like to, but I can't get my index down low enough to get into the Citizen. I got it as low as 7.1 last year and then proceeded to stink it up until the last couple of weeks.

[hoolio]

Although this may not be the only way to approach it I would have to agree with this statement. I think there would have to be varying degrees though depending on weather and course conditions (don't ask me how). But regardless if an 6 handicap goes out and fires off a 90 in an event like this, its less than likely he'll be making the cut and could avoid the ban by just DQing himself by not handing in a card. I'm not sure if it would get rid of the repeat offenders but you would have to start somewhere.

I understand the opposite tho where a +1 cap could go and shoot an 80 and still have a good chance at getting back into it with a low round such as the -5 that was posted at Predator. I'm not sure there is a fool-proof system here, but you have to start somewhere.

Flame away.

I've said this before, but what they really need to do for the Citizen is "ban" people who don't shoot withing N strokes of their handicap from entering the tournament for 2 years.

N should be a reasonable number, like say 10. This would mean that if you were a legitimate 6 or better, you'd have to shoot over 90 to be banned. Yes, it's possible as a 6 to throw a real stinker out there, but under benign conditions it should be easy to shoot below 90 at all of the courses in the tournament. And if you do manage to shoot over 90 as a 6 handicap, well suck it up and get better for the next time.

This is what the USGA does for it's tournaments and is a very nice way to get rid of the reverse baggers. I think N=4 for them though.

[jvincent]

My other suggestion to fix reverse bagging is to make the bottom X% of the field ineligible for two years. "Ineligible" is a better word than "ban" now that I think of it.

Make the "ineligible" decision after two rounds to allow for people to recover from a bad round. DQs and DNF are immediately ineligible.

Anyone at the Citizen listening?

[stinger]

Bobby Jones put it right: There is Golf and then there is Tournament Golf.
I'm a scratch player and decided two years ago to play tourney golf. My average last year in tournament was 90... yes very humbling, enough to make me want to quit the game. And since last september my tournament average is 80. I managed to shave 10 strokes in tourney play. And the only way I did so was to play in tourneys. Lots and lots of tournaments. You guys have to realize that this tournament is not a national level tournament. It is a local tournament. Let the guys who lower their hcps face their pride the next day when they have to tell their friends, family and co-workers that their score was over 90.... you live and learn. And tournament golf is a beast. It takes three, four years to learn to play and control your nerves and decision making process within your two ears. So before you guys keep criticizing the scores, go and play in some more tournaments. And for those who are criticizing and play tournament golf, remember your first few years whacking away at the ball under pressure. Give these guys a break.

[jvincent]

stinger,

I agree that tournament golf is very different than casual golf with the guys. Some people can't handle the pressure and do badly. Others can shrug it off and will play their normal game. Some will do better under pressure.

This year wasn't too bad score wise at the Citizen. In the past there have been many scores in the 90s and several in the 100s under benign conditions. Way too many to have been posted by legitmate 6 or better handicaps.

The problem is that for many people this is their only chance at a "real" tournament because it's hard to get onto the OVGA tournament ladder if they're a member or they simply aren't a member anywhere. Having spots taken up by people who clearly shouldn't be there just makes it more frustrating.

I used to play a lot of competitive sports so I'm familiar with pressure. For me there would be no pressure at the Citizen since it's just for bragging rights. Notwithstanding my ability to either play like crap or break 80 on any given day (the difference between a 9 and 6), I'm pretty sure I'd do OK at the Citizen.

[GarthM]

My other suggestion to fix reverse bagging is to make the bottom X% of the field ineligible for two years. "Ineligible" is a better word than "ban" now that I think of it.

Make the "ineligible" decision after two rounds to allow for people to recover from a bad round. DQs and DNF are immediately ineligible.

They already make DNF's "ineligible" for a year as it is. Besides which, if you don't play in the event why are you so concerned about how it is run?

As for people shooting big numbers and eligibility, if you have not been there, with all due respect kindly reserve judgement on this subject to those who have. Playing well under pressure is difficult at best and most amateurs do not know how to grind when they need to, often making matters much worse than they need to be.

Also keep in mind that these are AMATEURS, not professionals and they are not all scratch golfers, and that a handicap factor is an indication of your POTENTIAL not your actual ability.

This year wasn't too bad score wise at the Citizen. In the past there have been many scores in the 90s and several in the 100s under benign conditions. Way too many to have been posted by legitmate 6 or better handicaps.

No offense to anyone playing, but wait till Monday. Kanata is much more penal than Predator. You will see some of the scores you keep complaining about then, maybe even from me.

I used to play a lot of competitive sports so I'm familiar with pressure. For me there would be no pressure at the Citizen since it's just for bragging rights. Notwithstanding my ability to either play like crap or break 80 on any given day (the difference between a 9 and 6), I'm pretty sure I'd do OK at the Citizen.

Look forward to seeing you there next year then, unless of course the price goes up to $250, because I am sure that someone at the Citizen is listening...

[jvincent]

They already make DNF's "ineligible" for a year as it is. Besides which, if you don't play in the event why are you so concerned about how it is run?

.....

Look forward to seeing you there next year then, unless of course the price goes up to $250, because I am sure that someone at the Citizen is listening...

I wasn't aware of the DNF ineligibility.

I'm concerned because it's been clear from some of the scores posted that people are fudging it to get in. I haven't played in the tournament because the year I had my index under 8, the cutoff was below 6, and several people shot over 100 on a calm, sunny day. FWIW, I'm not the only one that thinks there are some bogus handicaps getting in.

Believe me, if I can get the index low enough, or they change the entry criteria, I will be there. I'm not expecting to win BTW. My goal would be to make the cut, which is possible if I bring my A game.

[LBH]

$150 or $250 - I could care less

My big problem with the tournament is that I just can't justify paying $150 for 2-3 courses that I can play for free (Clublink member here).

I would play in it if at least 3 courses weren't Clublink. Bring back Eagle Creek, Marshes, Outaouais, Stonebridge, whatever... Enough with Predator. Talon is a good choice when it's in good shape (not the case this year). Kanata is an excellent choice. It's a shotmakers course.

I say bring it up to $175 next year but have 4 of the following: Eagle Creek, Stonebridge, Kanata Lakes, Marshes, Camelot, Ottawa Hunt, Rivermead.

[GarthM]

I wasn't aware of the DNF ineligibility.

I'm concerned because it's been clear from some of the scores posted that people are fudging it to get in. I haven't played in the tournament because the year I had my index under 8, the cutoff was below 6, and several people shot over 100 on a calm, sunny day. FWIW, I'm not the only one that thinks there are some bogus handicaps getting in.

Believe me, if I can get the index low enough, or they change the entry criteria, I will be there. I'm not expecting to win BTW. My goal would be to make the cut, which is possible if I bring my A game.

I agree that there are some folks who should not be there. Apparently this was very evident the first year when there was no handicap requirement and rounds took over 6 hours, with scores well above 100.

FWIW making the first cut is harder than you think. Historically it is around 160. Sounds easy I know, but throw in tournament conditions and for your average 4-8 handicap, that is tough.

Hope you get your index low enough to get in next year. It is a well run tourney IMHO.

[class1947]

Both Garth and Farzin posted credible scores . As for the handicap situation IMO some of the other scores posted should bear looking at, if a player posted a score more than 5 shots above their handicap on that course they should really look at the meaning of their present number .Are they generated at easy courses (Mountain Creek ,Cloverdale??) or did they just have a bad day (92,95,102 give me a break!!!!!)

That said perhaps 10.8 is more than equivalent to 8 at other venues.

I believe some players are testing the waters to see how their game stacks up to the competition and there are few opportunities to get that experience.

Obviously Kanata Lakes will further separate the men from the BOYS.

[hacker1]

The statement that it was a sunny calm day I would say are a little off.
I teed off later and it was very windy- at least to what I play in normaly
Playing tournament is different than playing golf with your buddies for skins and pins
I entered the tournament just to test myself under those conditions
As far as the course goes I most likely would have done better if I had played I before Monday
It is not punishing – except the wind does offer a challenge
Especially playing it for the first time.