Putters

[Ginker]

Its late here.. later!

[Txxxxxxx]

Like I said, the putter is sweet, but in no way is this thing going to make putts any better than something else.

I still want to know why they retail so high.

Someone please enlighten me if you can.

[jonf]

Can someone please tell me why I should pay over $400 for a Cameron putter instead of the Nike Black OZ T130? What's so great about these putters that people are paying hundreds, and sometimes thousands of dollars for on Ebay?

PLEASE! Someone tell me.

For that matter, why do people pay 200 bucks for a putter when you can buy a 30 dollar knockoff that will hit the ball just as well. The only way to make a putt go in is to hit it dead straight, on the right line, with the perfect weight. If you miss hit it, it doesn't matter what you're swinging, it won't go in. It boggles my mind that people can spend so much on a putter, when the ugliest, cheapest piece of crap does the same job just as well.

[Txxxxxxx]

For that matter, why do people pay 200 bucks for a putter when you can buy a 30 dollar knockoff that will hit the ball just as well. The only way to make a putt go in is to hit it dead straight, on the right line, with the perfect weight. If you miss hit it, it doesn't matter what you're swinging, it won't go in. It boggles my mind that people can spend so much on a putter, when the ugliest, cheapest piece of crap does the same job just as well.

Agreed, however, the other manufacturers that people are buying from all sell their putters for around the same price. Cameron is well above that price and I am trying to figure out why.

[jonf]

Prestige...same reason someone buys a 1000 dollar suit vs a 100 dollar suit. They look and perform almost exactly the same to most people, but as soon as you say its Armani (or in this case a Scotty), everyone's eyes light up.

It's just like that IBM ad about the 8 dollar cashews in the hotel minibar. That tiny thing of cashews is NOT worth 8 bucks, but given the right situation people will buy them. As a side-bar, I personally think that's one of the best ads I've seen in a while.

[Txxxxxxx]

Prestige...same reason someone buys a 1000 dollar suit vs a 100 dollar suit. They look and perform almost exactly the same to most people, but as soon as you say its Armani (or in this case a Scotty), everyone's eyes light up.

It's just like that IBM ad about the 8 dollar cashews in the hotel minibar. That tiny thing of cashews is NOT worth 8 bucks, but given the right situation people will buy them. As a side-bar, I personally think that's one of the best ads I've seen in a while.

Well I agree to an extent, but I have a few $800 suits that are made of different material than a $100 suit, so again, it's material that makes it more expensive there.

Is there something about the material or R&D that Cameron needs to charge more? Or are these putters made with the same sort of materials as other putters that sell for $199?

[jonf]

Okay, but I bet that material isn't $700 more expensive. The two inch piece of fabric in the back of the neck that says "armani" is where most of that price tag comes from.

But I digress. We have already established that Camerons have a certain improved feel to them. People want putters with that feel. Only one guy makes putters with that feel. That guy only makes a certain number of those putters. That guy also realizes that golfers are the most insane bunch of people on the planet, so he slaps a hefty price tag on them. its a combination of supply + demand, and the fact that most golfers are a little out there

You can keep looking for a more concrete explanation than that, but I think that's really it. They feel great, they look pretty sweet, they are in limited supply, there is a niche market, and add to that the fact that there are a tonne used on tour, and you've got yourself one pricey putter.

[Txxxxxxx]

Okay, but I bet that material isn't $700 more expensive. The two inch piece of fabric in the back of the neck that says "armani" is where most of that price tag comes from.

But I digress. We have already established that Camerons have a certain improved feel to them. People want putters with that feel. Only one guy makes putters with that feel. That guy only makes a certain number of those putters. That guy also realizes that golfers are the most insane bunch of people on the planet, so he slaps a hefty price tag on them. its a combination of supply + demand, and the fact that most golfers are a little out there

You can keep looking for a more concrete explanation than that, but I think that's really it. They feel great, they look pretty sweet, they are in limited supply, there is a niche market, and add to that the fact that there are a tonne used on tour, and you've got yourself one pricey putter.

Good points for sure. MANY players, INCLUDING the top players in the PGA use Odyssey putters, and YES! putters for that matter. Even some great players use TM putters, but I don't see the price tag even close to the Cameron.

Compare it to the driver or iron market. There really isn't one manufacturer doubling the retail over other manufacturers for iron sets or for drivers, so how does this happen for a putter?

I'd say Nike makes the most expensive driver on the market. I'm willing to bet their reasoning behind the price is that they are fairly new (within the last 5 years lets say) to the driver market so perhaps they need to make up for sales. We've established that many people use these Cameron putters so it's not that they need to have prices high so they can break even or make a profit.

We can also take the car market into consideration here. If I buy a Volvo instead of a Mazda, I am paying for the extra engineering and features the Volvo has over the Mazda eventhough the S40 and the Mazda 6 share the same frame. There are reasons behind the price tag difference, not just because the car says "Volvo" on it.

I don't think we can say the reason that Cameron putters are highly priced is because they feel good or look nice.

I just tried pretty much all of them tonight and I couldn't say that they had double the feel or looks compared to the other putters. All they basically had was double the price tag. I'm not just some gomer who shoots 130 either or doesn't know golf. I've been playing for over 20 years and have a 3 handicap. Obviously if Cameron made the absolute best putter and nothing compared to it, and it was double the feel and looks, then EVERY Tour player would be using them. We all know this is NOT the case, and many players choose Odyssey for their putter, including choker Phil.

[jonf]

they don't have to have double the feel to be double the price. By that logic, a driver would have to give double the distance to be double the price. But in reality, all it takes is an extra 5 yards on a robotic tester for people to shell out an extra 50 or 100 bucks.

If a Cameron has the best feel, or is generally considered to be the best putter, then the only limit on the price is what people will pay. Cameron has obviously decided that that 400 dollar price point is just right to sell a lot of putters, while also keeping them exclusive enough that they maintain their prestige (and hence the other primary selling point).

Does everyone think Camerons are the best putters? No. Do more people think Camerons are the best putters than anything else? I think so. Keep in mind that its all about preference. The proportion of players on tour playing Camerons is pretty damn high, considering all the options out there. Also, the best putter available isn't always the best putter for a given individual For instance, I play an older Callaway driver. It is not the best driver, and nobody in their right mind would argue it is. But it is the best driver for me, as I hate clunky heads.

You mention irons. Who is the leader in irons? ask 20 people, and you'll get 20 different answers (there's probably actually a poll on it somewhere on this site ) There is no company who is above the rest. I would argue, however, the Scotty IS above the rest. Maybe not miles above, but as I said earlier, it only takes a little extra to be the best, and once you're the best, the only thing to control the price is the consumer.

As far as the car company goes, you could look at Acura and say that the integra (or whatever it is now called) is extraordinarily similar to the Honda Accord. Sure, the Acura has more features, but it is not twice the car as the Accord. A few more horsepower, a nicer interior, a few extra perks. Nicer car, certainly, but probably doesn't warrant the big jump in price. The difference is, nobody notices an Accord, but many people notice an Acura.

Also, you should keep in mind with Scotty's that the proportion of people using them on this site is probably disproportionate to the number who actually use them. There are golfers of all levels on here, to be sure, but the ones who are most active/visible as forum members seem to be the ones who love equipment. Few would argue that Scotty doesn't make the best putters, so its no wonder that the equipment fans on here tend to gravitate towards Scottys. At the course though, very rarely do I see a Scotty. Lots of no names, lots of odysseys, very few Scottys. As with any other premium item, they are not as common as the less expensive ones.

I would say that this discussion is less about Scotty Cameron and much more about the general nature of our consumer economy. Some things are more expensive than they SHOULD be, but they CAN be that expensive because they fill a gap, or catch a certain niche market.

You're just going to keep going round in circles trying to figure out why they're so pricey if the current answers don't satisfy you. You've heard it from the Cameron users on here, straight from the horse's mouth. They play them because they are friggin awesome to hit, they look mighty sweet, and maybe because they like the prestige of owning the best - and they pay for them for those same reasons. There's no other secret. If people will pay it, you can charge it.

[Txxxxxxx]

I've also heard from the Cameron users that they buy them to mimmick what they see the pros are using.

Yes Cameron is very intelligent when it comes to marketing obviously. The question is do the putters he makes go through a special procedure, R&D, or have special material that warrant their price tag. I'm not questioning his marketing, because obviously he knows there are people with a few screws loose who will pay $400 for one of his products.

Like you used the Acura for an example. People don't always pay for the name and Acura as a company markets the extra features and fit and finish that you pay for. They are not buying these cars because they see a movie star driving one. There is a lot of engineering that goes into making the higher end product. The people who are name brand whores and have money will buy a BMW or Benz, or going to the extreme, a Ferrari. Now look at those high end cars, and you'll see they are WAY higher priced because of materials used and engineering. That being said, people who lack self esteem or want to be recognized for what they drive, also buy these big name brand cars.

Where are the extra features on this putter? I think people play this putter because it's a fad more than anything. Like I said before, if the putter was that great, or so much better than the others, EVERY Tour player would have one custom made for him. They'd be stupid not to wouldn't they?

[Txxxxxxx]

P.S- I think we need some replies from some non-Cameron users. Obviously someone who's gone out and bought a Cameron will try to justify their purchase. It would be nice to hear from those of you who don't use them on this issue. There is probably a good chance of bias towards the product from them.

I think it's a pretty good debate, but so far, I've had users of the product answering instead of the general population.

[jonf]

Where are the extra features on this putter?

Well, you get that neat-o headcover with the divot tool

Like I said before, if the putter was that great, or so much better than the others, EVERY Tour player would have one custom made for him. They'd be stupid not to wouldn't they?

golfers are a weird breed though. Some need a putter to look just right (which is completely subjective.) Some need a certain sound, some need a particular feel. Some need a club to whipe lotion on their ass and tell them it special and different from everybody else's (yes, I stole it from Anchorman, alright?). It just isn't possible to make clubs that are perfect for everyone. And even if it was, Cameron wouldn't want to, as it would ruin the oh-so-carefully built-up prestige.

[jonf]

P.S- I think we need some replies from some non-Cameron users. Obviously someone who's gone out and bought a Cameron will try to justify their purchase. It would be nice to hear from those of you who don't use them on this issue. There is probably a good chance of bias towards the product from them.

I think it's a pretty good debate, but so far, I've had users of the product answering instead of the general population.

Hey, let's not go saying things we can't take back. I'm no Cameron user . Can't afford one, wouldn't want to. Give me a generic 40 dollar knockoff putter (preferably with a shiny copper face that reflects the sun into my opponents eyes when properly positioned, and I'm a happy camper. I've hit a few (both lefty and righty) and I could certainly feel a difference, but with my budget, and more importantly, my conviction that if its flat it will put it in the hole, I have no desire to get one.

[Golfbum]

I have nothing against Cameron putters or those who decide to use them.
However I find it hard to fathom that Soctty is making all of the putters that are on the market that bear his name.
Of course he personally makes the ones that his Tour players are using. But there can be no way he personally makes every other Scotty putter. Those have to be mass produced somewhere other than his shop.
It is like anything else. You drive a certain car because you like the looks, the ride and other things about the car. I would not be caught dead driving your car because I just do not like that model.
Personally, I use a YES TracyII and I happen to love the feel, the looks and the setup of that putter. However, I also have a TaylorMade Rosa Monza, and I can putt as well with it as the YES.
I feel if you are a good putter, (and I mean above average) that you can putt with any putter that is the correct length for you. I bought a 32" no name putter once for $20 and man I ran putts in from across the county with that thing I sold it to an older member at my course and he does the same thing. Imagine that, a $20 putter working that well? Amazing.
To each his own when it comes to putters or any golf club for that matter. But it is hard to say "A Scotty, or a Nike driver or whatever is far superior to any other club"
As for why Scotty's are so exspensive. simple, Supply & Demand, and (NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE USING ONE) but some people just want to use what a majority of Tour players use. If 75% of the Pros were using YES putters you can bet the sales of YES putters would grow rapidly amongst Amateur golfers.

[Andy4Par]

I think owning a Scotty is all about prestige nothing else. Yes they are a fine putter. No they are not any better than your average priced putter. Putters are a special piece of golf equipment. You putt lights out, you want to hug and kiss your putter. A few missed and whammo off to CB's to trade or buy new. You have a bad day with Driver use three wood or nothing but irons. Bad day with the flat stick, first thought is get a different one.

I have never used a Scotty, no real desire to buy one but there is that feeling of 'a lot of tour players do well with it, some forum members love them, idolize them, pay huge amounts of money to never ever hit a ball with them.' So I think yeah maybe there is something to owning a Scotty.

Luckily my income reduces me to a $40 Odyssey bought from a bargain bin after I snapped my regular putter in two. I can drain anything from anywhere with this putter. I hug and kiss it regularly.

[covanant]

There is no doubt in my mind that Scotty makes the nicest looking putters.
However,i have owned 2 this past year and sold them both allmost instantly!!
Hated the "Feel"
Could not putt worth a #@$ with them,too light.But thats my opinion.
A putter is personnal preferance i quess?
Some guys on this forum putt awsome with them.
What i would like to know,is why is it whenever a new driver comes out,it has to cost 499.99?

[Big Johnny69]

He does actually put a lot of R&D into his putters. Looking for the optimum balance, MOI, feel etc. Have you ever tried a Futura? Try one. The putter is so well made, balance and MOI wise, the thing almost swings itself once you start your stroke. Just awesome. And maybe the answer is just as simple as that is the MSRP that he puts on his equipment. He feels his stuff is worth that much so its priced that way. I'm sure if people didn't buy them, or his Tour presence wasn't as large as it is, the price tags would be lower.

And as for the "double the feel" for double the price rational, check out Honma golf products. Drivers selling for over $1000, iron sets going for $3000. Pretty sure they won't offer double the feel or double the distance. Its a prestige thing. Trump plays them and I'm sure many others from high society do as well.

There will always be someone making something to cater to a certain group of people and price their products accordingly. There is no one answer to your question, but more of a compilation of all the answers you've been given so far. There really isn't much more to it than that.

[Big Johnny69]

Where are the extra features on this putter? I think people play this putter because it's a fad more than anything. Like I said before, if the putter was that great, or so much better than the others, EVERY Tour player would have one custom made for him. They'd be stupid not to wouldn't they?

And of course not all Tour players would be using a Scotty. Don't forget about endorsements. At their level, usually the improvement a piece of equipment can offer on their game is minimal. So alot of the players will opt for the endorsement deal as opposed to the game improvement. That's why not all Tour players use a Scotty or a certain type of putter.

[jeffc]

I bought my Scotty used, partly to see what all the hype was about and partly since I think a lot of them are works of art. At the end of they day, I don't think I putt any better with it than my TM Rossa (which retail wise, costs about 1/3 of the cost).

[rgk5]

Retail Scotty heads are CNC milled in China by the 1,000's and bear a passing resemblance to the Tour models made in his Studio in Carlsbad, CA. Equal or better performance/quality can be found with certain Yes! and Gauge Design products.

As for the image, the golf world is full of posers who "need" a Scotty or R7 460 TP Tour. Some have the requisite skill, others think they can buy it and it is their $$$ to waste as they see fit.

[Big Johnny69]

As for the image, the golf world is full of posers who "need" a Scotty or R7 460 TP Tour. Some have the requisite skill, others think they can buy it and it is their $$$ to waste as they see fit.

Exactly

[perrsco]

I find the whole scotty cameron following a bit bizarre, I have to side with EG over this one. It just seems crazy to me that anyone would spend that coin on a "boutique" putter. Personally, the T.P. Mills line is comparable and the putters out of that custom shop go for half the price. Marketing genius or just opportunistic and preying on golfers with too much $? I don't know... I'm not convinced otherwise...

[Txxxxxxx]

Exactly

Well atleast we've established the fact that it's a "poser" thing rather than the product being really worth that kind of coin.

[TourIQ]

Where are the extra features on this putter?

Hi EG

Ask Karsten who made the first Newport? I think it was called an 'Anser'.
Funny how an OEM can copy another OEM and everyone says it's ok, BUT
when a component house does the same it's a clone / counterfeit and illegal

[Chieflongtee]

Now. Wouldn't you buy one since the latest US Open winner was using one.
http://www.scottycameron.com/

Callaway is crying

[Txxxxxxx]

Now. Wouldn't you buy one since the latest US Open winner was using one.
http://www.scottycameron.com/

Callaway is crying

HAHA! They should talk about which wedges he uses instead of his putter. I think his short game off the green saved him rather than his putting. I watched several short putts that he missed in the final round.

[Txxxxxxx]

Hi EG

Ask Karsten who made the first Newport? I think it was called an 'Anser'.
Funny how an OEM can copy another OEM and everyone says it's ok, BUT
when a component house does the same it's a clone / counterfeit and illegal

Very good point.

[Golfbum]

Retail Scotty heads are CNC milled in China by the 1,000's and bear a passing resemblance to the Tour models made in his Studio in Carlsbad, CA. Equal or better performance/quality can be found with certain Yes! and Gauge Design products.

As for the image, the golf world is full of posers who "need" a Scotty or R7 460 TP Tour. Some have the requisite skill, others think they can buy it and it is their $$$ to waste as they see fit.

BINGO A post like this could get you BANNED at one of the other Golf Forums in Ontario

[Txxxxxxx]

Funny thing about this thread is all non-Scotty users with the exception of one realize how ridiculous a fad it is, and the users are replying in attempt to justify their equipment purchase.

That being said, I'd probably do the same if I owned one, but I wouldn't have an issue with accepting the poser title I don't think.

I mean hell, I'm guilty of buying a few things that were part of a fad, then I realizedthey weren't worth the money and hooplah, and felt like a dummy for spending money on them to see what the hype was all about.

[Big Johnny69]

Well atleast we've established the fact that it's a "poser" thing rather than the product being really worth that kind of coin.

That is just one of the reasons. I totally agree with RGK5 that some people want one because they can afford one. That's all he's saying there. But that's not the only reasons. I don't know why the other explanations given here are not satisfactory to you. You seem so bent on shooting them down. You find what you need in other putters, that's great. That's what works for you. Some people prefer Scotty's. Nothing wrong with that. But hate to dissappoint you, Scotty's do have some fine craftsmanship behind them, which is one of the reasons for their price tags. I've had/heard of putters were the face insert has come out, an alignment aid on the putter has fallen off, paint has peeled. I haven't had that happen to any of the Scotty's I've ever owned. But I've never purchased a Scotty at full price.

And as for TP Mills putters, I've seen some used still going for almost $400. Just like Scotty's, there are some rare ones out there that still fetch a pretty penny.

I mean you guys are using the car analogies. Do you question someone when you see them driving a Porshe, when they could save ten of thousands and get the same performance by buying a Corvette? I don't, they are looking for something specific and to their liking and, if they can afford it, pay for something they think is of better quality.