"Hanging" Lie

[BC MIST]

Played Les Vieux Moulins today and on #12, my second shot ended up in the bushes just short and to the left of the green. The ball was in the crotch of a branch, suspended about 18" above the ground.

As I started my backswing, my club contacted another branch which pulled the branch where my ball was lodged back with it. As I started my downswing the ball dropped down from the branch, my club contacted the branch in which the ball was stuck and that projected the ball forward. I did not hit the ball with my club.

Am I penalized?

[Kilroy]

I think it counts as a stroke (like a wiff) but I doubt you deserve a penalty.

Bizzare situation to be sure.

[1dash1]

BC Mist:

During the forward motion of your club, your actions would have been excused.

Otherwise, it is a breach of Rule 18-2 to move your ball. The penalty is one stroke. (There is no additional penalty for failure to replace the ball, since you completed your stroke.)

[Darin_CS]

I am not rules expert, but since you were taking your shot, it would simply count as a stroke. If you were moving your club around the tree, then it would be a 2 stroke penalty. And you migh teven have to replace the ball. Not totally sure, but I think there is some truth to what I said.

[jvincent]

Pretty sure this is covered by the following rules.

One stroke penalty.

4-5. Playing Moving Ball
A player must not make a stroke at his ball while it is moving.

Exceptions:

* Ball falling off tee — Rule 11-3.
* Striking the ball more than once — Rule 14-4.
* Ball moving in water — Rule 14-6.

When the ball begins to move only after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of his club for the stroke, he incurs no penalty under this Rule for playing a moving ball, but he is not exempt from any penalty under the following Rules:

* Ball at rest moved by player — Rule 18-2a.
* Ball at rest moving after address — Rule 18-2b.

(Ball purposely deflected or stopped by player, partner or caddie — see Rule 1-2.)

And then.....

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment


a. General
When a player’s ball is in play, if:

(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or
(ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,

the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:

*

In searching for a ball in a hazard covered by loose impediments or sand, for a ball in an abnormal ground condition or for a ball believed to be in water in a water hazard — Rule 12-1
*

In repairing a hole plug or ball mark — Rule 16-1c
*

In measuring — Rule 18-6
*

In lifting a ball under a Rule — Rule 20-1
*

In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule — Rule 20-3a
*

In removing a loose impediment on the putting green — Rule 23-1
*

In removing movable obstructions — Rule 24-1.

b. Ball Moving After Address
If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[LobWedge]

Played Les Vieux Moulins today and on #12, my second shot ended up in the bushes just short and to the left of the green. The ball was in the crotch of a branch, suspended about 18" above the ground.

As I started my backswing, my club contacted another branch which pulled the branch where my ball was lodged back with it. As I started my downswing the ball dropped down from the branch, my club contacted the branch in which the ball was stuck and that projected the ball forward. I did not hit the ball with my club.

Am I penalized?

No penalty. You're covered by 18-2. Your ball didn't move when you addressed it, it moved as the reslult of a fairly made stroke.

[jvincent]

No penalty. You're covered by 18-2. Your ball didn't move when you addressed it, it moved as the reslult of a fairly made stroke.

As I read 18-2.a.ii he would be penalized a stroke.

[zoic]

What I find most fascinating about this is that if the branch had been disturbed before the ball was actrally found, and it had ended up on the ground, no penalty would have been incurred due to the lack of knowledge an actual enfraction occured.

LOL, that would be how I would play it too.

[LobWedge]

As I read 18-2.a.ii he would be penalized a stroke.

18-2a.(ii) refers to the the player's, or his partner's equipment causing the ball to move while the ball is in play, eg. if your ball is on the green and you accidentally hit it with a practice putting stroke. Basically, the ball is in play everywhere on the course except when it has been lifted under the rules, or after it has been holed to complete the play of a hole, or it is teed up in the teeing ground prior to the start of the hole being played, and before you take a stroke at it.

Rule 18-2b applies to BC's situation.

[jvincent]

Oops, I meant to say 18-2.a.(i). Under that section, any movement of the ball is cause for a penalty.

And then the following text:
"the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made."

applies to BC's situation because the ball moved as a result of the backswing and he completed his stroke.

One note here, I am assuming that BC actually made a stroke when he said "As I started my downswing..." since that does not necessarily imply making a stroke.

[Gary Hill]

Pretty sure this is covered by the following rules.

Pretty sure this is covered by the following rules.

Rule 1 - Rule 34.

[Gary Hill]

No penalty. You're covered by 18-2. Your ball didn't move when you addressed it, it moved as the reslult of a fairly made stroke.

To what part of Rule 18-2 are you referring? Rule 18-2a or Rule 18-2b?

[BC MIST]

No penalty. You're covered by 18-2. Your ball didn't move when you addressed it, it moved as the reslult of a fairly made stroke.

I am sure it has no bearing on the what the penalty is, but with the ball "suspended" above the ground in the crotch of the branch, I did not and could not "ADDRESS" the ball, by definition.

And, yes, I did complete the stroke. And made double which was tempered by 6 birdies .

[LobWedge]

To what part of Rule 18-2 are you referring? Rule 18-2a or Rule 18-2b?

Sorry Gary, I was referring to 18-2b.

[LobWedge]

Oops, I meant to say 18-2.a.(i). Under that section, any movement of the ball is cause for a penalty.

And then the following text:
"the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made."

applies to BC's situation because the ball moved as a result of the backswing and he completed his stroke.

One note here, I am assuming that BC actually made a stroke when he said "As I started my downswing..." since that does not necessarily imply making a stroke.

Edited my reply. Gotta think on this one a bit more...

[LobWedge]

Alright, I re-read Rule 18 and I'm certain now that under 18-1a(ii), BC would receive a 1 stroke penalty and his ball would now be played as it lies from the new position as a result of that stroke.

Thanks to jvincent for making me take another look.

BC, I guess in retrospect it would have been wise to take an unplayable.

[el tigre]

Hmmm, I'm a little curious about something. Here is the text for Rule 18-2 (my bold emphasis):

18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment

a. General When a player’s ball is in play, if: (i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or (ii) equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

Now here is the text of Rule 13-2:

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved: the position or lie of his ball, the area of his intended stance or swing, his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or the area in which he is to drop or place a ball, by any of the following actions: moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds), creating or eliminating irregularities of surface, removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or removing dew, frost or water. However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs: in fairly taking his stance, in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,

Doesn't this mean that the movement was permitted by a Rule (specifically Rule 13-2), and therefore there is no penalty for the breach of Rule 18-2? What am I missing here?

[Maverick]

I put the ball on the ground and play it from there. Call it "creative" golfing if you will, but hitting balls hanging from a branch is no fun.

[el tigre]

I put the ball on the ground and play it from there. Call it "creative" golfing if you will, but hitting balls hanging from a branch is no fun.

It is if you make the shot!

Some of my most memorable shots are the ones from impossible lies, up against a tree, between overhanging branches, whatever. Sure its "easier" to use a foot wedge, but there is a special satisfaction that comes from finding a creative solution to the situations that the game dishes out to you.

[AAA]

Doesn't this match the situation?

18-2b. Ball Moving After Address
If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[Kilroy]

other than as a result of a stroke,

The backswing is part of the stroke.

[covanant]

It is if you make the shot!

Some of my most memorable shots are the ones from impossible lies, up against a tree, between overhanging branches, whatever. Sure its "easier" to use a foot wedge, but there is a special satisfaction that comes from finding a creative solution to the situations that the game dishes out to you.

Yeah,like busting a club

[BC MIST]

Doesn't this match the situation?

18-2b. Ball Moving After Address
If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

No, because as I said above, I never addressed the ball, so this part of the rule cannot apply. Can anyone give me the "final answer?"

I like el tigre's post the best as I save a stroke.

[BC MIST]

Some of my most memorable shots are the ones from impossible lies, up against a tree, between overhanging branches, whatever. Sure its "easier" to use a foot wedge, but there is a special satisfaction that comes from finding a creative solution to the situations that the game dishes out to you.

Amen!!! One of the alternatives,to cheat, is not an alternative.

[jonf]

It is if you make the shot!

Some of my most memorable shots are the ones from impossible lies, up against a tree, between overhanging branches, whatever. Sure its "easier" to use a foot wedge, but there is a special satisfaction that comes from finding a creative solution to the situations that the game dishes out to you.

No doubt about it. The one shot I will probably never forget was out of a creek at the meadows, embedded in the clay on a downhill lie (the creek itself was almost non existent at the time). Ruined my shoes, but managed to get the ball to within a foot of the hole, and I don't even remember if I made the putt. Those are the reasons I play golf.

[Gary Hill]

The backswing is part of the stroke.

Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

[Gary Hill]

No, because as I said above, I never addressed the ball, so this part of the rule cannot apply. Can anyone give me the "final answer?"

As you said yourself, you CAUSED the ball to move when your backswing (which is not part of the stroke) moved a branch which shook the ball loose.

You have incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a(i) for causing the ball to move when it is in play.

You must replace the ball unless, as in your case, you have started the stroke OR the backward movement for the stroke AND the stroke is made.

Therefore, you are not required to replace the ball because you continued with your stroke.

You are also exempt from Rule 14-5 (Playing moving ball) for the same reason.

Final Answer: The penalty is one stroke and the ball is played as it lies.

[jvincent]

Final Answer: The penalty is one stroke and the ball is played as it lies.

Yeah! I got it right. I even applied the right rule.

[BC MIST]

As you said yourself, you CAUSED the ball to move when your backswing (which is not part of the stroke) moved a branch which shook the ball loose.

While the penalty may be the same, that is not what I said.

My ball was in the crotch of a branch. As I took my backswing the movement of another branch of the same branch caused the ball to move horizontally, however, the ball remained in the same crotch(place of rest?). The ball only dropped out of the crotch as I took my downswing and was moved forward by the forward movement of the branches.

As I started my backswing, my club contacted another branch which pulled the branch where my ball was lodged back with it. As I started my downswing the ball dropped down from the branch, my club contacted the branch in which the ball was stuck and that projected the ball forward. I did not hit the ball with my club.

[AAA]

Sorry, I missed your saying you had not addressed it. So as Gary says 18-2a(i) applies.

My ball was in the crotch of a branch. As I took my backswing the movement of another branch of the same branch caused the ball to move horizontally, however, the ball remained in the same crotch(place of rest?). The ball only dropped out of the crotch as I took my downswing and was moved forward by the forward movement of the branches.

If you had not made any attempt at a backswing or down swing it is probable that the ball would not have moved. However, that the fact is that your actions 'caused' (either directly or indirectly) the ball to move.