Lie angle questions.

[AndrewMGA]

Hi,

Recently I purchased a set of second hand clubs with a lie angle 3* flat. I did some research before buying and decided the bend would be ok for me as I'm only 5' 7" and my wrist to floor is about 34".

I've now played 5 rounds with these clubs and I'm not sure anymore. They look and feel like the sole is sitting correctly at address, but I'm incredibly inconsistent with them. Not to say that I wasn't inconsistent with my old clubs because I'm still working on my swing, 23 handicapper . And more research is just confusing me on the right angle for my height.


So my questions are:
Should I wait till my swing becomes more consistent before I go get these clubs checked for the proper angle for me?
If not, is there a place in Orleans that can do it? I know Don at Artisan can but I just can't make it to Kanata.
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Then I can work on my swing some more this year and get my clubs and shafts fitted next spring.

Thanks
Andy

[dH]

Your angle at contact is different than address. If it's totally flat at address it's too flat at contact I'd say. I got my bent to standard. At andress the top of the toe is up a bit but at impact essentiallyu flat. Other than that 3* flat is EXTREMELY Flat. Someone yoru height I'd guess maybe 1 or 2 max but 3 could easily be it. When I got my irons bent my shotmaking increased exponentially!

[Sakuraba]

I was told that especially with forged irons they can be pounded back towards upright through use. What was once 3 degrees flat may be now standard, or 1 deg flat.

[Gropper]

I would also like to know a good place or some one that can do this for me.

Thanks

Gropper

[sharkhark]

The only problem with my callaway irons is that it has to be done at callaway to maintain warranty due to the bore thru shaft. On the other hand I don't believe they charge for this, they didn't for me.
The faces even have a special paint system (in my case 2nd line from top is white) to denote 2 degrees upright.

Two things
1) the comment on address is dead on. Clubs dip the head at impact due to centrifugal force. They should look slightly toe up for each person due to this. If they look perfect then problems as they will hit dirt and fade/slice.

2)Good to do now and worry about changes later. Example, I am now starting to draw/hook occasionally and will get lie angles checked. I may have changed my swing and need flatter or std lie now. Angle could be (could?) be causing this. Only a lie board will tell.

Good luck, do it.

[el tigre]

I would also like to know a good place or some one that can do this for me.

Thanks

Gropper

Golfworks on Industrial/Innes can do length, loft and lie adjustments. They have a lie board as well, if you need to find out what you need.

[Hank Hill]

Golfworks on Industrial/Innes can do length, loft and lie adjustments. They have a lie board as well, if you need to find out what you need.

How much are they likely to charge to check and adjust the lie angles on a set of irons?

[Andru]

Hi,

Recently I purchased a set of second hand clubs with a lie angle 3* flat. I did some research before buying and decided the bend would be ok for me as I'm only 5' 7" and my wrist to floor is about 34".

I've now played 5 rounds with these clubs and I'm not sure anymore. They look and feel like the sole is sitting correctly at address, but I'm incredibly inconsistent with them. Not to say that I wasn't inconsistent with my old clubs because I'm still working on my swing, 23 handicapper . And more research is just confusing me on the right angle for my height.


So my questions are:
Should I wait till my swing becomes more consistent before I go get these clubs checked for the proper angle for me?
If not, is there a place in Orleans that can do it? I know Don at Artisan can but I just can't make it to Kanata.
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Then I can work on my swing some more this year and get my clubs and shafts fitted next spring.

Thanks
Andy

Don't just bend them, get them checked properly. it's only a 25 minute drive from Orleans to Artisan just get it done there because he'll have you swing each iron separately and he'll adjust them accordingly. Don't be a twit, get those sticks fit.

You know what the right thing to do is.

[dH]

Before you get them bent and pay to get fitted make sure you have a grooved swing. If your switching all the time and very inconsistent the fitting is a waste of money IMO. Why spend cash to get them fitted to your exact swing when you don't have one and next week youc ould be trying something else!!

[AndrewMGA]

Don't just bend them, get them checked properly. it's only a 25 minute drive from Orleans to Artisan just get it done there because he'll have you swing each iron separately and he'll adjust them accordingly. Don't be a twit, get those sticks fit.

You know what the right thing to do is.

25 min if you have wheels, little longer otherwise .

It would be nice to do the fitting, but my swing is not there yet, so I'm going to send 'em back to Callaway and have the clubs put back to normal for now.

Hopefully later in the year, or next spring I'll be ready to go visit Don.

Thanks for the info.

[Andru]

25 min if you have wheels, little longer otherwise .

It would be nice to do the fitting, but my swing is not there yet, so I'm going to send 'em back to Callaway and have the clubs put back to normal for now.

Hopefully later in the year, or next spring I'll be ready to go visit Don.

Thanks for the info.

That's a bad idea. Just an fyi.

I'd love someone to explain 'normal'

I've had this discussion with many and you're just setting yourself up for months of frustration. Take it from someone who's been through the spin cycle. All the other stuff is ok. But having proper lie angles. Especially when you're learning is crucial because you can do everything right and the ball will still fly left( too upright ) right (too flat). However sometimes people need to take steps and feel it for themselves.

[AndrewMGA]

That's a bad idea. Just an fyi.

I'd love someone to explain 'normal'

I've had this discussion with many and you're just setting yourself up for months of frustration. Take it from someone who's been through the spin cycle. All the other stuff is ok. But having proper lie angles. Especially when you're learning is crucial because you can do everything right and the ball will still fly left( too upright ) right (too flat). However sometimes people need to take steps and feel it for themselves.

I understand what you are saying, but in your case 'All the other stuff is ok'. I know my swing need some work, so how can the adjustments be made to fit my swing when I don't have a consistent one yet?

I would rather have the clubs reset to the lie angle they are 'off the rack' and work on my swing. Then when I feel confident enough in my swing, go get the clubs fitted shafts and all.

[Golfbum]

GO GET FITTED. Regardless of your current swing.
You may think your swing is not grooved, and it is likely not grooved. However, if your irons are no where close to being the correct lie then even if you are swinging pretty much the same way every time you are not going to hit quality shots.
A good fitter should let you hit about 5 balls, no more. Then he will look at the mark on the tape on the bottom of the club. From there he makes his adjustments. Why only 5 balls? Because after 5 you start to adjust to the lie of any irons to help hit them straight. When I had my fitting 4 years ago I hit 3 balls with every different lie angle on clubs. Finally found what was right and ordered my clubs. Played the best golf of my life after that.
Forged irons can be bent much more than cast. So be careful who you take your irons to. Make sure he is a good fitter.
Everyone who swings a golf club should be fit. Why would you not have this done? For all the time and costs involved you are just plain silly not to have your irons fit to your swing. I had 2 sets of forged irons bent this spring, 2 up. Now I know they fit my swing. So if I miss a shot it is not the lie angle that is at fault, it is the guy swinging the clubs!
FYI, your height, wrist to floor measurement etc really has nothing to do with the lie angle. It's all on how you deliver the clubface back to the ball that counts. Short guys, tall guys, they could all be the same lie.
Read Tom Wishon's book, "In Search Of The Perfect Club", best reading you can find on purchasing clubs.

[downhillslider]

Before you start fartin around with bending these irons, you must establish if the shafts are right for you. Because they were purchased used, there is no way for you to know what exactly was done to these clubs, if anything, were they fit for the previous owner ? You need to get fitted or you are risking spending $$$ for nothing. There is no shortcut for this. The lenght affects the lie anlge, the flex affects it, the swing, the >>>> etc.

PM me

[sharkhark]

Ultimately if you have time and money all suggestions are good. That said, I have read that 90% of avg golfers could use a standard set. Look at geoff, he is a giant and can play standard or 2 inches longer.
If time/money permits get totally fitted, what shaft, flex, lie etc.

But you may be just an avg golfer who picked up a cheap set, and can't afford alot tinkering yet. Thats where lie angles are most important. Even without a grooved swing, if for example the lie board shows 10/10 shots are way out to toe, get them adjusted, and worry about everything else later.

I once posted for a cheap quick advice, but in end got a ton of suggestions to fit my clubs, change shafts at a cost of $400 etc etc.
All this when I just wanted a cheap $100 back up set.
Everyone is helpful, it just depends on your immediate concers vs time & $$$

[AndrewMGA]

Ya, it would be great to have the time and money to get it done right, but at this point I just want to make sure the 3* flat is not causing me more troubles while I work on my swing.

Getting the lie angle adjusted to specs would be a start, fitting would be great, re-shafting is just not in the budget.

[Chieflongtee]

So my questions are:
Should I wait till my swing becomes more consistent before I go get these clubs checked for the proper angle for me?
If not, is there a place in Orleans that can do it? I know Don at Artisan can but I just can't make it to Kanata.
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Then I can work on my swing some more this year and get my clubs and shafts fitted next spring. If you don't want to perform this test just ask GW how much they charge a lie test.Thanks
Andy[/QUOTE]

Here is a cheap solution. Head to the range with your clubs and wear flat sole shoes. Bring some masking tape and stick some underneath the sole of each club. If the mats have rubber hit directly off the rubber.if not hit off the green stuff. After a couple shots there will be a distinct mark on the masking tape. If the mark is in the middle then no need to have the lies changed . If on the toe or heel then some tweaking needs to be done. If so bring the clubs to Golfworks(don't remove the tape nor the marks) and they'll adjust them for you for about $3. per club. Should you do it? Of course you should. The game is difficult enough to adjust your swing to clubs that don't fit. It is not an end in itself but it's a start in the right direction.See attachment for driving range test.These were my clubs before I had them adjusted. You can see the distinct mark towards the toe.
http://forum.ottawagolf.com/attachme...2&d=1128644590

[AndrewMGA]

So my questions are:
Should I wait till my swing becomes more consistent before I go get these clubs checked for the proper angle for me?
If not, is there a place in Orleans that can do it? I know Don at Artisan can but I just can't make it to Kanata.
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Then I can work on my swing some more this year and get my clubs and shafts fitted next spring. If you don't want to perform this test just ask GW how much they charge a lie test.Thanks
Andy

Here is a cheap solution. Head to the range with your clubs and wear flat sole shoes. Bring some masking tape and stick some underneath the sole of each club. If the mats have rubber hit directly off the rubber.if not hit off the green stuff. After a couple shots there will be a distinct mark on the masking tape. If the mark is in the middle then no need to have the lies changed . If on the toe or heel then some tweaking needs to be done. If so bring the clubs to Golfworks(don't remove the tape nor the marks) and they'll adjust them for you for about $3. per club. Should you do it? Of course you should. The game is difficult enough to adjust your swing to clubs that don't fit. It is not an end in itself but it's a start in the right direction.See attachment for driving range test.These were my clubs before I had them adjusted. You can see the distinct mark towards the toe.
http://forum.ottawagolf.com/attachme...2&d=1128644590[/quote]

Thats a great idea, I'll try that.

Thanks

[AndrewMGA]

Chief,
Can they adjust Callaway clubs though?

[BC MIST]

Here is a cheap solution. Head to the range with your clubs and wear flat sole shoes. Bring some masking tape and stick some underneath the sole of each club. If the mats have rubber hit directly off the rubber.if not hit off the green stuff. After a couple shots there will be a distinct mark on the masking tape. If the mark is in the middle then no need to have the lies changed . If on the toe or heel then some tweaking needs to be done. If so bring the clubs to Golfworks(don't remove the tape nor the marks) and they'll adjust them for you for about $3. per club. Should you do it? Of course you should.

I do not believe in having all clubs adjusted "2 degrees up,"for example as the assumption is that they were all "standard" to begin with and that the golfer actually swings all clubs in the same manner. EACH club should be hit, adjusted, re-hit, adjusted and so on, until it is perfect.

Just showing the mark on the bottom to an adjuster and having them all adjusted the same amount is too subjective. Some irons have more rounded soles than others which results in the black mark being located in a slightly different position.

Having the correct lie angles for your current swing is extremely important, regardless of its consistency.

[Chieflongtee]

I do not believe in having all clubs adjusted "2 degrees up,"for example as the assumption is that they were all "standard" to begin with and that the golfer actually swings all clubs in the same manner. EACH club should be hit, adjusted, re-hit, adjusted and so on, until it is perfect.

Just showing the mark on the bottom to an adjuster and having them all adjusted the same amount is too subjective. Some irons have more rounded soles than others which results in the black mark being located in a slightly different position.

Having the correct lie angles for your current swing is extremely important, regardless of its consistency.

Agreed but the original poster's question was:
Quote:
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Quote

You have a lie machine and have the option of tweaking your clubs at will. Most people don't. And if they do go see a clubfitter often times they'll be pressured to buy something else. So my solution is practical and if any tweaking has to be redone he can go back and redo the test and have the 'bender readjust them for free'. Finally if he has all of them bent 2 degrees he will be a lot better off than if he had just kept them as they were originally.

[BC MIST]

Agreed but the original poster's question was:
Quote:
And lastly, any idea on the cost just to have them all bent back to standard without fitting? This is what I'm currently considering doing. Quote

You have a lie machine and have the option of tweaking your clubs at will. Most people don't. And if they do go see a clubfitter often times they'll be pressured to buy something else. So my solution is practical and if any tweaking has to be redone he can go back and redo the test and have the 'bender readjust them for free'. Finally if he has all of them bent 2 degrees he will be a lot better off than if he had just kept them as they were originally.

True, however, if a golfer is going to pay good money to have the lies adjusted, would it not be better to have a proper job done, than a half-assed one?

[downhillslider]

After pondering this subject a little more in detail, knowing now that they are Callaways,I doubt that these clubs were bent 3 deg. and if they are actually 3 deg. form standard ( God, I hate that term !!! ) they would have had to be custom ordered, so my first recomendation would be to get them measured and proceed from there. BC is correct in saying that the set should not necesseraly have 1 deg between each club.

[Andru]

Chief,
Can they adjust Callaway clubs though?

The funny thing is Andrew. If you're not going to do it right. Don't do it at all. It's a waste of money.

I'll put this is point form so it's easy to read. True story

- My lie angles were too upright. 3 degrees on avg.
- hitting balls left.
- Because of the loft pw flies farther left than 3 Iron.
- I can't release the club properly or the ball just goes left.
- I develop a hold off swing. becasue if I release the club head? who knows where it's going. sometimes straight sometimes left.
- spend 6 months doing this. Not breaking through. Finally I go get fitted. These clubs are so wrong for me it's ridiculous.
- Not that eveyone has to do this but I buy new clubs the ones recommended. My first round. bam. I'm push slicing eveything.
- Freaking out. Finally at the range I start naturally releasing the club head. Bam right at the flag, bam right at the flag. even my 4 irons is flying straight.
- 6 wasted months in a nutshell,

Bad lie angles cause you to
1) hit the ball poorly,
2) develop bad swing habits and
3) sap your confidence.

[Chieflongtee]

True, however, if a golfer is going to pay good money to have the lies adjusted, would it not be better to have a proper job done, than a half-assed one?

The method I suggested is not a 1/2 ass one. It is a good starting point. If you perform this test on the driving range it will at least tell you if the clubs need to be adjusted. Let's not go overboard with this. How often do you find a perfect lie on the Golf course. Unfortunately you are not allowed to bring your level along. So if the marks are really close to the centre then the clubs are in the ball park for this particular golfer. If someone wants to be anal about this then go see a clubfitter and put up the jack. I disagree with your divot method but I still like to read what you have to say. Have a good one Lyle.

[AndrewMGA]

Thanks for all the info.
Just booked in with Don tomorow, he is going to check and make adjustments to them, that way they get done right.

Then all I have left to blame on the poor shots is my swing .

[Andru]

Thanks for all the info.
Just booked in with Don tomorow, he is going to check and make adjustments to them, that way they get done right.

Then all I have left to blame on the poor shots is my swing .

Nice Andrew. You won't regret it. Good golfing and enjoy the journey!

[Chieflongtee]

The funny thing is Andrew. If you're not going to do it right. Don't do it at all. It's a waste of money.

I'll put this is point form so it's easy to read. True story

- My lie angles were too upright. 3 degrees on avg.
- hitting balls left.
- Because of the loft pw flies farther left than 3 Iron.
- I can't release the club properly or the ball just goes left.
- I develop a hold off swing. becasue if I release the club head? who knows where it's going. sometimes straight sometimes left.
- spend 6 months doing this. Not breaking through. Finally I go get fitted. These clubs are so wrong for me it's ridiculous.
- Not that eveyone has to do this but I buy new clubs the ones recommended. My first round. bam. I'm push slicing eveything.
- Freaking out. Finally at the range I start naturally releasing the club head. Bam right at the flag, bam right at the flag. even my 4 irons is flying straight.
- 6 wasted months in a nutshell,

Bad lie angles cause you to
1) hit the ball poorly,
2) develop bad swing habits and
3) sap your confidence.

Andru. You forgot to mention one important detail. If you don't mind I'll add the following in caps:
STAY AWAY FROM CRAPPY RANGE BALLS.
They are real confidence sappers and they will make you tweak your swing when you shouldn't.

[Andru]

Andru. You forgot to mention one important detail. If you don't mind I'll add the following in caps:
STAY AWAY FROM CRAPPY RANGE BALLS.
They are real confidence sappers and they will make you tweak your swing when you shouldn't.

Agreed, but my practice place usually has good balls so it's not really a concern for me.

[BC MIST]

The method I suggested is not a 1/2 ass one. It is a good starting point. If you perform this test on the driving range it will at least tell you if the clubs need to be adjusted. Let's not go overboard with this. How often do you find a perfect lie on the Golf course. Unfortunately you are not allowed to bring your level along. So if the marks are really close to the centre then the clubs are in the ball park for this particular golfer. If someone wants to be anal about this then go see a clubfitter and put up the jack. I disagree with your divot method but I still like to read what you have to say. Have a good one Lyle.

Getting a mark on the bottom of an iron is what we all do, whether it is the green mark of a rubber mat,(your method) a black mark from a lie check board or whatever. If I then "take them to Golfworks,"(your method) someone is going to bend them towards ideal. How much? You look at the marks and say, "1.5 degrees," Joel says, "2.5 degrees," Horatio say "2.0 degrees." The point is that it is an educated guess and that is not good enough for me and should not be good enough for anyone who is paying $5 per club to have the job done. After that first adjustment is made there should be another check on some sort of lie board and more adjustments made, if necessary, until the lie angles are perfect on all clubs. I still say that anything less than that perfect job is "half assed." No-one would swingweight 6 irons to D2 and not the other two, nor would anyone add 3 wraps under the grips of 12 clubs but not 3 wraps to the 13th, so why bend the irons so the lie angles are CLOSE? The job must be done properly. This is why a fitted club is vastly superior to an "off the rack" purchase and you know that the poster above who said that 90% of golfers could use standard clubs is 90% WRONG!! The true STANDARD in club fitting is that there are no STANDARDS, with "regular" flex or "stiff" flex being the most bogus of the STANDARDS.

One important skill in golf is to assess the lie in the fairway. If the ball is higher than my feet I know that the ball will hook, with a perfect swing, therefore I need to aim right. So what happens if my irons are unknowingly, too upright or too flat? If the former, a severe hook results, if the later, perhaps none. The effect is extreme and tough to determine for a skilled golfer let alone one who is learning the game. With the proper lie angle, the golfer knows that it was his swing that caused a misdirected shot, and not his clubs. And knowing the 9 ball flight patterns enables him to possible make the necessary adjustments to hit the ball better. A lot of good things can happen if the lie angles are perfect and as ANDRU so eloquently outlined above, a lot of bad things can happen, if they are not.

I don't see where I referred to a "my divot method" above, however, if I have one, it is also half assed and I certainly would not go to Golfworks and tell them that my divots are thicker on the outside than the inside and ask them to adjust the lie angles accordingly.