Tree stump - relief, or no relief?

[BullDog]

I didn't question it when it came up this afternoon but it doesn't seem right so I want to seek confirmation.

It was clear the guy was going to be out of the hole anyway due to the way he started off (we were in a match play event) so I didn't say anything, but he said that his ball was near a tree stump that affected his ball striking ability. The stump was from a tree that was once part of a forest for the lack of a better term. He wasn't near a fairway and he was either in the rough bordering the tree line or just inside the tree line. He took a club's length free relief and I didn't quite catch the grounds upon which he said he could do so.

To my knowledge, it wasn't marked ground under repair, there were no local rules stating one would be entitled to free relief and had the whole tree been there in the first place, he would have been SOL anyway.

I believe he violated a rule by moving his ball or not playing from place where the ball last sat. That would result in automatic loss of hole in match play or at least one stroke in stroke play.

What's the real answer? Thanks!

[SIMMER]

Excerpt from Golf Digest:

Whether up against a rock, resting on a tree stump, or sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon, some balls cannot be played. When this occurs, you are allowed - under penalty of one stroke - to proceed according to one of these options:

-Replay the previous shot
-Drop within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but no closer to the hole.
-Drop a ball anywhere on an imaginary line behind where the ball came to rest. The line is drawn from the hole through the point where the ball lay.

[powerlefty]

I agree with SIMMER. He could have taken a drop under penalty of 1 stroke. SInce he did not, in Match play it is loss of hole. Now if it was not a stuump, but rather a tree trunk and branches that was piled for removal, that I think is a free lift.

[Gary Hill]

He took a club's length free relief

I believe he violated a rule by moving his ball or not playing from place where the ball last sat. That would result in automatic loss of hole in match play or at least one stroke in stroke play.

What's the real answer? Thanks!

There is no free relief from a tree stump.

By moving his ball and gaining a significant advantange, he would likely be disqualified

[BC MIST]

There is no free relief from a tree stump.

By moving his ball and gaining a significant advantange, he would likely be disqualified

Why would he "likely" be disqualified versus just losing the hole?

[sharkhark]

Just a quick clarification for me.
I recently had a tree stump that interferred with my follow thru. The stump was just in the beginning of the first cut of rough.
This was a solitary tree as the nearest trees were 100 feet to the left of me (a forest).
I assumed I had to play it, so I chopped 10 yards to my left. Correct?

[BullDog]

Just a quick clarification for me.
I recently had a tree stump that interferred with my follow thru. The stump was just in the beginning of the first cut of rough.
This was a solitary tree as the nearest trees were 100 feet to the left of me (a forest).
I assumed I had to play it, so I chopped 10 yards to my left. Correct?

That's what I would do - pitch it out somewhere or take a stroke penalty (unplayable) and take relief.

[leftylucas]

I am happy to hear that he had already lost the hole because it could have been a bad situation. You should definitely bring it back up to him just for clarification and you will also send the message that he must follow and discuss any interpretation of the rules prior to hitting his ball.

[LBH]

In situations like that, ask him to play two balls. One with the relief, one without... If he plays the same score with both then the ruling doesn't matter. Otherwise, get a ruling from the committee (relief or not, penalty strokes or not) and mark the appropriate score on the scorecard.

[BullDog]

In situations like that, ask him to play two balls. One with the relief, one without... If he plays the same score with both then the ruling doesn't matter. Otherwise, get a ruling from the committee (relief or not, penalty strokes or not) and mark the appropriate score on the scorecard.

I would have, but he was already out of the hole by the time this had happened. It was on #8 at Renfrew. I had already driven my ball out over the tree on the right into the fairway about 223 yards from the green while he cracked his first drive into the woods, played out, hit back into the woods, etc. So it didn't matter. I was looking for future reference information.

On a similar note, I noticed that some trees "at the bend" on that same hole are staked and held up with metal wire. The trees must be 20-30 feet high. Normally courses will have local rules that give free relief from staked trees that are usually less than two clubs (or whatever) in height. In this case, I presume, the correct method is to play as it lies?

Thanks!

Mike

[LobWedge]

Why would he "likely" be disqualified versus just losing the hole?

I believe this is what Gary was refering to...

1-2 Exerting Influence on Ball

A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.
(Removal of movable obstruction — see Rule 24-1.)
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-2:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
Note: In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

[1dash1]

In situations like that, ask him to play two balls. One with the relief, one without... If he plays the same score with both then the ruling doesn't matter. Otherwise, get a ruling from the committee (relief or not, penalty strokes or not) and mark the appropriate score on the scorecard.

LongBallHitter:

Please permit me to clarify your statement.

The playing of a second ball under Rule 3-3 MUST be reported to the Committee - even if the player should make the same score with both balls. The penalty for failure to report is disqualification.

So, get a ruling from the Committee no matter what you score with both balls.

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[1dash1]

Re: Tree Stumps

Sorry, I can't remember the original author, but the saying goes something like this:

"Tree stumps are just short trees."

[hacker1]

If I am reading and understanding this post.
No releif is given for the stump
BUT one gets relief from the parts of the tree that were felled ( ie enie at the masters a couple years back when he hit into the bush)
How come the parts of the tree on the ground one gets relief but not the stumpthat still has to be removed
dave

[Gary Hill]

How come the parts of the tree on the ground one gets relief but not the stumpthat still has to be removed
dave

Parts of the tree on the ground are loose impediments (sticks, leaves, branches and the like).

The stump is fixed.

[Gary Hill]

Why would he "likely" be disqualified versus just losing the hole?

Moving your ball from a "virtually unplayable situation" to a good place is gaining a significant andvantage and qualifies as a serious breach of the Rules. This applies even if you only move your ball one inch.

Example: Moving your ball from just inside a bunker to just outside a bunker.

[Gary Hill]

I believe this is what Gary was refering to...

1-2 Exerting Influence on Ball

A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.
(Removal of movable obstruction — see Rule 24-1.)
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-2:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
Note: In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.

That is definitely NOT what I was referring to. This situation has nothing to do with Rule 1-2.

[1dash1]

Hacker1:

Here's the way I rationalize it:

• How difficult WAS it to play around the tree before it fell?
• How difficult IS it to play around the stump?
• Given that it is much easier to play around the stump now than it used to be to play around the tree, why should the player get any relief from the stump?

Does that make any sense?

[ironmaster15213]

Hey, a tree is as natural as grass on a golf course, a stump is still a tree but with a crew cut, All trees have roots so they're natural too. If you think your going to hurt yourself during a swing because of a stump,root or tree, take a stroke and play the ball from another location according to the rules. It really is that simple Just think birdie on the next hole instead of broken wrist or hand. When you start moving balls to a better location be it 1 inch or 72 inches just so there's no penalty for where you hit it, your on a slippery slope to ruining your handicap and game. It's tempting but really who are you really fooling when you have to play with that lower handicap when money or championships are on the line. My advice is let that other golfer know that he cannot move his ball at his whim and be as friendly as possible while telling him.

[LobWedge]

That is definitely NOT what I was referring to. This situation has nothing to do with Rule 1-2.

Gary,

Can you please explain how this rule doesn't apply, and which rule would apply in this case. Thanks

[hacker1]

Thanks for the clearing that up in regards to loose impediments

like someone posted landing behind a stump is better that landing behaind a tree
thanks dave

as a side garry this prob belongs in another post
but what is the ruling regarding enviromental hazzards
when playing with my buddies we all agree that if your ball goes into an environmental hazzard you cannot play it from there

we are not sure what is the what is the ruling for going in and geting your ball
in a friendly game we go and look for it but do not play it
but what is the actual ruling regarding walking in an environmental harrard
thanks
dave

[1dash1]

Hacker1:

In my opinion, the Rules of Golf apply to playing the game, not to retrieving the ball.

Like a ball lying out of bounds in someone's private garden, you break no rule of golf by retrieving the ball - but you break public law and are subject to legal penalties. You are probably also breaking club rules and subject to punishment by club policy (fines, suspension, expulsion, etc.).

Note: Theoretically, the Committee could invoke its general powers under Rule 33-7 to punish players. However, I'd suggest that does little to fix the problem of having upset neighbors or wakening the wrath of EPA investigators. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Instead, I'd suggest letting the initial "wrong" stand (not disqualify violators under Rule 33-7) and issue an amendment to the Conditions of Competition (warning players that violators will be removed from competition).

[Frewcrew]

I would have, but he was already out of the hole by the time this had happened. It was on #8 at Renfrew. I had already driven my ball out over the tree on the right into the fairway about 223 yards from the green while he cracked his first drive into the woods, played out, hit back into the woods, etc. So it didn't matter. I was looking for future reference information.

On a similar note, I noticed that some trees "at the bend" on that same hole are staked and held up with metal wire. The trees must be 20-30 feet high. Normally courses will have local rules that give free relief from staked trees that are usually less than two clubs (or whatever) in height. In this case, I presume, the correct method is to play as it lies?

Thanks!

Mike

The staked/wired trees you are referring to were transplanted last fall as part of a five year transplant program. The wires are there to stabilize the tree & are normally removed after one year. In the mean time, you are entitled to free relief (swing & stance) from the tree & wires under a local rule, as the greens department do not want these trees damaged until they are well established.

[Gary Hill]

Gary,

Can you please explain how this rule doesn't apply, and which rule would apply in this case. Thanks

Some examples of Rule 1-2 (Exerting influence on the ball) would be: blowing on the ball, stomping up and down on the ground when the ball is on the lip of the hole or placing an umbrella to shield the ball from the wind. Generally speaking, it is used when you exert influence on the ball without actually touching it.

Rule 18-2a states that if the player lifts or moves his ball except as provided in the Rules, he incurs a penalty stroke and the ball shall be replaced. There is no provision in the Rules to move your ball because of interference by a tree stump. Therefore, the player has breached Rule 18-2a.

The player did not replace the ball as required and, as a result, he has played from a wrong place under Rule 20-7 and incurs and additional penalty of one stroke.

However, Note 1 to Rule 20-7 states that if a player has gained a significant advantage (moving his ball away from "a tree stump that affected his ball striking ability" to a place where he had an unhindered swing), then he has committed a serious breach of this Rule and a disqualification penatly would be justified.

[Gary Hill]

The staked/wired trees you are referring to were transplanted last fall as part of a five year transplant program. The wires are there to stabilize the tree & are normally removed after one year. In the mean time, you are entitled to free relief (swing & stance) from the tree & wires under a local rule, as the greens department do not want these trees damaged until they are well established.

I agree that you are entitled to relief from the stabilizing wires under Rule 24-2 as an immovable obstruction, but could you post the Local Rule that you say grants relief from the tree itself.

[LobWedge]

Perfect. Thanks Gary.

Some examples of Rule 1-2 (Exerting influence on the ball) would be: blowing on the ball, stomping up and down on the ground when the ball is on the lip of the hole or placing an umbrella to shield the ball from the wind. Generally speaking, it is used when you exert influence on the ball without actually touching it.

Rule 18-2a states that if the player lifts or moves his ball except as provided in the Rules, he incurs a penalty stroke and the ball shall be replaced. There is no provision in the Rules to move your ball because of interference by a tree stump. Therefore, the player has breached Rule 18-2a.

The player did not replace the ball as required and, as a result, he has played from a wrong place under Rule 20-7 and incurs and additional penalty of one stroke.

However, Note 1 to Rule 20-7 states that if a player has gained a significant advantage (moving his ball away from "a tree stump that affected his ball striking ability" to a place where he had an unhindered swing), then he has committed a serious breach of this Rule and a disqualification penatly would be justified.

[BullDog]

I agree that you are entitled to relief from the stabilizing wires under Rule 24-2 as an immovable obstruction, but could you post the Local Rule that you say grants relief from the tree itself.

Exactly - thanks, Gary. That's why I asked that question too... there was no local rule saying that on the score card (but I have seen such local rules printed on cards at other courses) and didn't notice anything on the board by the proshop door either. You can't just "make it up" out there - you need to "point to something" to substantiate the claim.

[sharkshooter]

Parts of the tree on the ground are loose impediments (sticks, leaves, branches and the like).

The stump is fixed.

Would it be a stretch if you jumped on a tractor, tied a chain to the stump and pulled it out of the way?

Just wondering if that is taking "Tiger's rock" a bit too far.

[1dash1]

Sharkshooter:

Tiger's boulder was not embedded, nor was it fixed or growing. It was merely big. Size doesn't matter when considering loose impediments.

The tree stump is fixed. (Arguably, you could call it embedded.) And, depending on how freshly cut it was, it may still be growing. Consequently, it is not a loose impediment, it is part of the course. Remove it and you've improved the area of intended swing, a breach of Rule 13-2.

Definition:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...oseImpediments

Rule 13-2:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le13.html#13-2

[sharkshooter]

...The tree stump is fixed. (Arguably, you could call it embedded.) And, depending on how freshly cut it was, it may still be growing. Consequently, it is not a loose impediment, it is part of the course.

Got it.