Whaley to play in Greater Hartford Open

[mr shank]

Good point em, I think the problem with Casey's circumstance is there are many non-golfers who seem to be very vocal about this issue.

They seem to think golf isn't really a sport, does not cause any sort of real fatigue, so if a player rides a cart or not makes no difference.

The rest of us know walking is an integral part of golf.

[Colby]

I've got a question, where does it say feel that walking is an integral part of golf? Is it in the rules of golf? I haven't looked for it, but if it was, why are carts even at courses? Thou shalt walk? Or do carts make it easier to have a spare beer while you're drinking your current one?

I know that walking the course is a pleasant way to spend a few early morning hours, if you can get over the swearing of yourself and your golfing companions, but that is a personal opinion. Now at the PGA Tour level there are certain conditions of competition, playing the same type of ball throughout the round, playing from the same set of tees as all of the other competitors, and walking. And it's not like these pros are lugging that big staff bag around, they have slaves, er caddies, who carry the bag, clean the ball, pick up divots, clean clubs, throw cameras in the water, etc.

I'm going to preface this by saying that I prefer to walk also, I really enjoy getting the exercise and I feel that I am getting a better read for the course. However, I am not so pre-disposed that I turn my nose up at courses that have a manditory cart rule. And there are some reasons that I get a cart for a course that I normally walk, like it's just too hot out.

Some courses require you to take a cart. This usually isn't so they can "grab" more money from you. Depending on how they use them, carts can speed up pace of play, and if they are equiped with GPS, like the ones at The Marshes, they can tell where bottlenecks are, and deal with them. When I was down in Palm Desert playing Landmark, where the Skins game was held, just a few weeks ago, we had a slow group ahead of us. When we saw the Marshall, he checked his screen and saw that there was a group about 3/4 of a hole ahead of the group in front of us, a group that we never saw. They could manage the course. A lot of these are resort courses, for example the Disney courses mentioned in another thread about Orlando golf, and they get a lot of casual golfers. Also, very difficult terrain, like that at Geant and Diable at Tremblant, or courses with large distances between the greens and the next tee blocks, Dundarave in PEI is like this, all beg for mandatory carts.

As for Casey Martin, he didn't ask for a break on a rule of golf, he asked for a break in a condition of competition. When he won the injunction, he had earned the right to play at highest level, which is not the case now as he is playing in the . His condition will not allow him to play if he walks, and he challenged the playing condition in court and won. For right or wrong, whatever we feel, he was given the chance to earn his living at his profession of choice.

And it doesn't get easier for him. To say he has an advantage over the other golfers because he rides a cart is inaccurate. You can't tell me that Tiger or Duval are more exhausted after a five mile walk and hitting a ball 60-70 times than Casey is after playing a round struggling to get to his ball.

Here's a interesting article that came out after the Q-school this past December.

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/year...2/martin1.html

And a couple of quotes from it:

Everyone didn't agree that the Americans with the Disabilities Act gave Martin the right to use a cart on the PGA Tour, but they were compelled to admire the courage and character of the kid dragging that right leg shot to shot, hole to hole.

Only now, his legs don't get better. Just worse. Time is running out. Of course, he has a defect called Klippel Trenaunay Weber Syndrome, where blood flows into his leg but doesn't flow out. It leaves his leg with surreal swelling, internal bleeding, and pain the rest of us probably couldn't understand unless we pounded our own leg with a hammer for 20 minutes a day...

The more Martin plays, the more it hurts. Eventually, the doctors could have to amputate. All the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, Martin fought for the right to use a cart on tour, but it's sure harder and harder to practice for Q-School and those Buy.com events when it feels like someone is searing your leg with a branding iron.


As for me, I'm waiting for the snow to go away so I can lug my clubs on my back and sacrifice a few more balls to the water gods.

My $0.02

[Chris]

Reading the article puts complaining of my own aches and pains in perspective. I think we all take life for granted and
need to eat a little humble pie once in a while to maintain a balanced diet!

Thanks

[golfdoc]

I would have to say the main reason courses supply carts is $$$$.
Carts are a huge part of their income. A course will pay for each cart they buy in less than a season and then the rest is profit.
Yes, carts can speed up play, yes GPS carts can help manage the course. The end goal is to speed up play which in turn means more time slots on the first tee.

The fact is, power carts are easy income for golf courses. They offer them because they are big moneymakers.

If they tell you they speed up play, ok, but I think they are wrong. There are several courses locally where carts are used quite often. (Stonebridge, the Dome) due to the terrain and distance between holes. I always walk and have no trouble keeping up to those in carts I can only see carts speeding up play when you can drive them all over the course and not just on the path.

[4jag]

I think Casey would have less opposition if he used a different "vehicle" to aid with his disability. Instead of a golf cart that is identifed with golf courses rather then disabled people, Casey should get an AWD wheelchair or better still one of those new Segway Human Transporters... http://www.segway.com/

I suspect that far fewer people would take issue with someone using a wheelchair (or similar) to get around a golf course on Tour.

BTW, I hear that Segway is coming out with a golf version of their Human Transporter to compete with conventional golf carts. Hell I'd go golfing just to try one of these puppies out. I don't know which would be more fun, the golf or bombing around on the transporter!

[Colby]

Thanks Chris, I never understood the depth of Casey's troubles until I read that article.

Golfdoc, I agree with what you are saying, I'm sure that there are some courses that make carts manditory that are in it just for the cash. I think The Marches is the only one around here that carts are manditory, I'm sure someone will let me know if I am wrong. But most of the courses that I know of that have manditory carts, are resort style course, and yes I think The Marshes is more of a resort style course. It was built to cater to visiting businessmen, what with a well advertised high-end club rental and world-class hotal that has been built next to it. Having played there a couple of times last year, there are some places in going from the green to the next tee would take you forever walking. Will the carts make money for the course? Absolutely, and so they should. They are in the business to make money.

I have also seen problems with carts. Golfers who do not know how to use them properly, cart path only days, I've even seen colf cart tracks across greens! Most people who can't use a cart properly are the very casual golfers, those who are out on the resort courses, playing while they are on vacation. They drive up to the ball, hit, drive to their buddies ball on the far side of the fairway, and they hit. Or they are looking for balls. Drop the first guy and head for your ball. Take a few clubs and walk over to your ball. The same thing goes for cart path only days. Take a few clubs, if your ball is sitting somewhere around the 150 mark, take that club plus one up and down. Take your chipping club and your putter if you are close to the green and let your partner take the cart ahead to their ball. It's all very simple, but some people just haven't learned how to do it.

I've always walked Stonebridge, Nation and everywhere else. With the exception of The Marshes, Heritage, Geant and Diable, a couple of scramle tournaments, the OttawaGolf Open and the last OttawaGolf round in October at Manderley, I walked every other time I played last summer.

4jag, the vehicle angle is interesting, it may have been seen in a different light if it was a wheelchair or something similar. A golf cart is available everywhere though. He wouldn't have to drag a specialized AWD wheelchair with him to every tournament. I don't know if that was his reasoning, but it would seem logical. I'm just glad that my aging body is still able to do the things I want it to do, sort of.

Anyways, Happy New Year to all (a bit late)

[mr shank]

Colby - golf course have carts to make money - that's all. If they didn't turn a profit from renting carts they wouldn't exist. But this is not about cart rentals -

NEWSFLASH!!

- not everyone is created equal which is what makes sports exciting.
Whether Tiger or Duval get more fatigued walking than Casey does riding is irrelevant.

What about Stadler & Darrin Clarke - should they get to ride because they're overweight?
Nope.

The fact of the matter is, professional sports is about the best competing on a level playing field, and not about having different "conditions of competition"

Do you think the NHL or NFL or NBA would have different "conditions of competition" for different players? Hardly!

It's rulings like this that keeps golf in the non-sports category, right up there with curling & darts.

I don't doubt Casey Martin is fatigued & in pain during & after each round of golf, and I don't know anyone who doesn't admire his courage but does that give him the right to compete in a different manner than the rest of the field?
I say not, bleeding hearts.

[em69]

Agreed
You cannot compare Casey struggling to get his ball to walking 5 miles. That's apples and oranges. Riding a cart is always and will be an advantage to walking. Nobody can honestly tell me they are not the least bit tired of walking any course (flat or hilly).

[Colby]

Actually curling is one up on golf, at least it is an olympic event. You must be thinking of bowling.

Of course carts make money, nobody in business does things like that to lose money. If they lost money, even the resort courses would make the fat tourists hike, or else make caddies manditory. Would people feel better if they paid some kid 30-50 bucks to haul their bag around for 5 hours rather than drive a cart because the pros have caddies not carts? Make caddies manditory for courses like the Marshes, drive the price up higher to satisfy some urge not to ride in a cart.

But comparing apples to oranges doesn't help either. The type of play in the NHL, NFL, MLB, or NBA is completely different from golf. Golf is matching your score against someone else. It's how you hit the ball, not how you walk or ride up to it. A guy in a motorized wheelchair doesn't stand a chance to even compete in the NHL, NFL, MLB, or NBA, they couldn't even compete at the college or minor league level.

Golf is about playing against yourself, and in competition matching that score against another, hole-by-hole in match play, at the end of 18 in stroke play, or by some other method of counting. I don't know any scoring method in golf that measures how far you walk during a round. If that was the case I would be a pro because I am all over the course, and I get lots of walking in.

Casey Martin doesn't hit the ball with the golf cart, he doesn't hit it from the cart like polo. Just like everyone else, he stands there, swings the club back and strikes the ball. His worth in golf is based on his score after 18 holes and how it measures up to everyone else on the golf course. He's playing within the rules of golf, and nothing that bleeding hearts or rednecks say will change the fact that his golf swing is good enough to play at a very high level. With my two good legs I will probably never reach the level that Casey Martin plays at today.

I'm not sure that golf is considered a "non-sport" It's just different than what is considered a traditional sport, football, baseball, hockey, etc., but you can't tell me that some of the professionals aren't athletes, and not just today. If you look back at Arnold Palmer when he was young, he was in great shape. As for the traditional sports, if you follow baseball, Babe Ruth was a big smoker and drinker, and more recently, John Kruk, ex of the Philadelphia Phillies, always said he was not an athlete. See http://www.baseball-almanac.com/play...php?p=krukjo01

Did it hurt golf to have Casey ride a cart during competition? I don't think so, it was a very special case, one that I am sure was not granted easily, especially when it went to the Supreme Court. Let the fat guys ride carts, I don't think so. It's not like they carry their clubs, clean their balls, fix their divots, or anything else besides walk a few miles, swing their clubs and pull the ball out of the hole 18 times.

[jimrobin]

I agree to the point that officals should try and make competion as fair and level as possible for all competitors. So that is why I don’t think a golf cart should be allowed. (I also think everyone should play from the same tees also (qualifying and tournaments), but enough about that.

Riding a cart is always and will be an advantage to walking. Nobody can honestly tell me they are not the least bit tired of walking any course (flat or hilly).

As for walking around a golf course being hard on a PGA body I don’t agree for 2 main reasons:

1. Caddies – those are the guys doing all the work, carrying the clubs, raking bunkers, throwing cameras, etc. When you have a caddy, 18 holes is a walk in the park. We find it hard because we’re lugging around our clubs.

2. These are pro athletes were talking about. They play 250 to 300 rounds a year (maybe more). Walking isn’t hard on them. Their hard part is the travel and being on the road for weeks on end. Think about it for us. Yes the first few rounds every year are tough but once the body gets used to it, it isn’t that bad.

Now in 110*F temperature, I agree, yes that's tough, and the Senior Tour that’s a little different.


I actually look at a cart being a disadvantage. Personally I don’t get the same feel for the game in a cart. Walking I seem to be able to get into a groove, carting it I always find it harder to get that same feeling.

[jimrobin]

I realize one is a team game the other individual but let me ask you this:

For example:
Last minute of a hockey game, Team Black throws "Player A" on the ice, he has already logged 30 minutes of ice time. Team Green throws "Player Z" onto the ice after playing less than 5 minutes.

Do people yell and complain because the fatigue factor isn't the same? They have to compete against each other.
Does Tiger walking vs. Casey riding sound the same?
Really, I don't know what's right, what's wrong.

What I do know is: I really don't think walking 18 holes on a nice sunny day is that tiring on a PGA pro (except maybe Casey Martin).

[mr shank]

You're right jimrobin, the caddies are the ones doing all the work. This is one of the problems with pro golf - if these guys are athletes - and that is debatable, then they should be able to carry their own clubs.

However, to say golfers have been athletes for years is like saying bowlers & curlers are athelets. They're not - these guys didn't even know the meaning of working out until Tiger arrvied on tour.

And as for Palmer, he was in good shape because of genetics.I'll bet he spent twice as much time in the 19th hole as in the gym when in his prime.

Tiger has made great strides to improve the image of golf from a bunch of old fat guys who drink beer, to a game that requires a combination of strength & skill. Allowing competitors to use carts is two steps backwards for the game of professional golf.

[Colby]

Tiger has made great strides to improve the image of golf from a bunch of old fat guys who drink beer, to a game that requires a combination of strength & skill.

What? It wasn't a game of skill before? How does strength outweigh finese. How was the image hurting before Tiger got there. If you watch some of the old rounds on the golf channel, those guys don't look too fat. Sure there's always a few, but that's anywhere.

What happened to Duval after he went on his fitness binge. He won a British Open, and he finished 80th on the money list this year, with 2 top 10s all year, no wins. Phil Mickelson, who at times looks like he doesn't work out in a gym at all, finishes 2nd on the money list with 2 wins and 12 top tens. David Toms, Rich Beem, and even 40+ year old Nick Price finished a long way ahead of Duval. I don't see where having zero percent body fat and an extreme strength training workout adds to the prestige of golf.

Golf has prestige because it is a gentleman's sport. In no other game do you call a penalty on yourself. It is a game based on honour and tradition. Does Casey's use of a cart hurt the tradition of golf as well as giving him an advantage over the other golfers. Which is really the bigger issue? Is he less tired for being driven to his ball while others must walk. Aren't players carted back to the tee when the first playoff hole is being played? Should that be allowed? Or is it OK because they are all being carted back. Make them walk!

[el tigre]

To compare golf to sports like hockey, football or baseball is just silly. Even in individual sports like tennis, your are competing directly against your opponent(s) on the field of play, where EVERY action you take, no matter how seemingly trivial or inconsequential, has some bearing on the action(s) of your opponents - and therefore has some bearing on the outcome of the competition.

Golf is not like that. Each player competes against the same course - the one who plays the course the best is declared the winner. In that sense it has more in common with sports like skiing (fastest one down the same course wins) or kayaking (fastest time down the river wins). Does anyone even care how skiers get to the top of the hill, or whether kayakers have to carry their own boat back upstream?

I agree that walking is an integral part of golf as a recreational activity. I certainly prefer walking to taking a golf cart. I'm sure hiking into the bush is an integral part of kayaking as a recreational activity too.

But competition is different. Competitive golf is about shotmaking, not walking. How you get from one shot to the next has no bearing on your score. That's why the Rules of Golf are silent on the subject - it's not relevant to the competition. Does it matter whether Tiger Woods can walk to the next hole better/faster/easier than Craig Stadler? Of course not - winning or losing is determined by the shots they make - not by how they get from one hole to the next.

Walking the course is a tradition in the PGA and most other golf tours. That's the only reason they have walking the course as a local rule - to keep the tradition going. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if they do away with this local rule within the next 5-10 years anyway, in order to shave 15-30 minutes off the broadcast time. Will anyone even care then? Probably not.

[jimrobin]

I was just trying to make a point that fatigue factors vary all the time. With regards to the Casey Martin situation, everybody is jumping on the bandwagon that the fatigue factor wouldn't be fair. I personally don't think it would be that big of a deal, and that's why I used an example. Maybe hockey wasn't a good one; I should of used an individual sport (tennis, he/she already played a doubles match earlier today).
I just think people are making a mountain out of a molehill in regards to the cart and he wouldn't be a as fatigued.

Now with that being said, I still don't feel a golf cart should be allowed just because of an image thing. "Officials on the PGA tour should try and make competion as fair and level as possible for all competitors" and allowing one guy to use a cart, the playing field wouldn't be perfectly level.

As for your the comment about 15-20 minutes off the broadcast time, is incorrect. On the senior tour players are allowed carts but the caddy must walk or vise-versa, caddy can cart, but player must walk. Although we rarely see this, this rule is specially there so spectators at the event can keep up with their favorite player (this rule was mentioned once on a broadcast). That’s one of the main reasons why walking WILL ALWAYS be part of golf.

[Chieflongtee]

Can someone explain to me why Men golfers can't wear bermudas on both the PGA and SPGA tour. It is in my opinion a silly rule especially in when a tournament is being held in 100 degree weather in August? :

[Colby]

jimrobin, I agree. I hope walking is always a part of the game. When I am playing, I enjoy the serenity, except for the odd mower or chips being eaten , of the course. The wind in the trees, the animals, the sounds of the water. It's a bit different for the tour players as most of that is drowned out by the background buzz of the gallery, but when they are shooting, things are usually pretty quiet.

Your point about the crowd keeping up is an excellent point, on I had not thought of. Golf would lose a lot of interest if Tiger would arrive at the tee box hit his ball and then zoom off in his golf cart to where his ball came to rest. If people are moving now after Tiger finishes a hole, even when others are still putting out, what would it be like then?!?

My points were this:

1. The permission to grant Casey Martin a special exemption to ride in a cart was a one of. His caddy still walked, just like in the Senior tour. The circumstances surrounding this exemption may never be seen again, and if it is, great care will need to be taken to ensure that it is absolutely necessary. Casey can play the game at the highest level, how many people in his condition can.

2. The pros on the tour today will be somewhat fatigued after walking a few miles, but they are not overly fatigued. Even the big fat ones, which there are few and far between. These guys are on the course 5 or 6 days a week, and they walk it a minimum of 2 days a week. If walking a course is that hard, they wouldn't make the first month! As you mentioned jimrobin, after we play the first few times, we are in much better shape to be walking the course, carrying our clubs.

Those are my opinions. Some may agree, and others don't. We all don't have to agree, I think it would be pretty boring if we did.

[jimrobin]

One question:
Not that is really matters but......
Why did re-post my post as a quotation then talk about something else?

[mr shank]

Colby - you ask how was the image of golf hurting before Tiger???

Are you kidding me?

Ever seen the movie Caddyshack? - this is how non-golfers used to perceive golf. It's a game for old fat guys.

What I am talking about is public perception.
People who don't play golf & many who do play golf don't even consider it a sport. This is because it isn't - it is an aquired skill, just like bowling or playing pool. You don't have to be a good athlete to play golf, it certainly helps, but it isn't necessary.

Only in the past few years (since the arrival of Tiger)have players been concerned with fitness. Don't tell me playes who played in the 50's, 60's, & 70's worked out because they didn't. If they were fit, like Palmer, it had more to do with good genes than anything else.

To have people riding in carts on the PGA just perpetuates that old fat guy stereotype of a golfer.

Next thing you know we'll have women qualifying from the forward tees for PGA tournaments.

[NoBack]

Next thing you know we'll have women qualifying from the forward tees for PGA tournaments.

Gee ...... isnt this deja-vus????

[Colby]

Originally posted by mr shank
Colby - you ask how was the image of golf hurting before Tiger???

Are you kidding me?

Ever seen the movie Caddyshack? - this is how non-golfers used to perceive golf. It's a game for old fat guys.

mr shank,

I don't know what golf you were watching when you were young, but I remember watching golf in the 70s and 80s when I was growing up and I never saw that many fat guys out there.

It's been known as an old boys sport, a sport for rich men, elitist, not a fat guys sport. For the average golfer it is recreational, and golfers of all shapes and sizes play it, the same as skiers of all shapes and sizes can ski recreationaly.

There probably was people out there who saw Caddyshack as the real thing. They are the same people who believe the wrestling on TV is real. It was a comedy. Do you believe in Bagger Vance, Tin Cup or Happy Gilmore? Animal House was what college life in the 60's was really like too! Give me a break.

Golf is starting to reach more and more people, driven by the popularity of Tiger, a golfing machine that few people can match. Courses are being altered to become "Tiger-proof", made so long that very few others can even reach the fairway (Bethpage Black), yet on a course the left alone, the weather come in and takes Tiger's game away and he shoots the worst round of his professional career. Everyone wants to see Tiger, and after he finishes his hole, they are taking off to the next tee/green to see him again. To hell with the person that is playing in Tiger's group and still has to putt out, he can work with the disruption.

Tiger has the potential to influence the non-golfer and lift golf to new levels in the eyes of the masses. He has done that to some degree with his level of play, raising tournament purses and revenues for the PGA Tour from all sorts of angles. When he is at a function, he is quite sociable and seemingly approachable. However, around the course he is a focused zombie. Does it work for him, sure, he's the number one golfer. Does it work for the fans, not the ones he passes by. I overheard a marshall at the Skins game in December tell a disapointed kid that Tiger had already signed his one autograph for the day.

I've seen Tiger play once now, and frankly that's good enough for me. His roboticized game has no warmth and feeling to it. He's a machine built to win. I think the whole fitness thing is good for the golfer, I'm not sure how it will work out for the game. Tiger gets some benefit from being strong and ripping the ball out of the deep rough, but how much better would he be if he stays out of it.

As for Whaley qualifying for the PGA Tour event from the front tees, I think Gary Hill mentioned it in his postings. To paraphrase, and add a bit of my own, Gary please tell me if I'm wrong:

1. PGA does not equal PGA Tour
2. Whaley won the PGA sectional, not a PGA Tour qualifier. At the PGA Sectionals, golfers play from their respective tee boxes.
3. Because the area where Whaley won the sectional is hosting a PGA Tour event, out of courtesy, the winner of the sectional is invited to play in the tour event.
4. At the tour event, Whaley will be required to play from the same tees as everyone else.
5. There was no conspiracy. The PGA Sectionals are always played this way and have been for some years. Martha Burke did not set this up, honest.
6. Whaley's decision to play the GHO is of her own doing. If she was talked into it, again, it was her choice to make. And she might pull out yet.

What will this macho community do, or what about the male golfers who score worse than her if she plays well?

[powerlefty]

With all due respect to those claiming Tiger Woods brought fitness to golf, that is totally false.

Greg Norman was espousing good fitness well before Woods even won the first of his USGA junior titles. Norman is an all around athlete who just happened to also become the best golfer in the world for most of the decade before Woods burst onto the scene. He was so much into fitness that he travelled with his own set of free weights on his aircraft everywhere he went in the world. He also was an advocate of significant amounts of biking for leg strength, endurance and aerobic capcity. If you have ever seen him in person on the golf course his upper body strength is clearly evident when you see the size of his shoulders.

Before that certainly Gary Player as far back as the 60s was the king of fitness on tour with a regimen including diet, strength and aerobic activity. Actually back when Player was into fitness he was probably the only one and he basically had to be fit to keep up with Palmer and Nicklaus who were both blessed with more athletic builds.

[NoBack]

I just read in the Sun today that the PGA of America is changing their rules at sectional tournaments. It says the rule will make women play from the same tees as men if they want to qualify for PGA Tour events.

I do beleive it's "case closed" on this one now. So if the women qualify now, great. They qualified like the men and should be allowed to play with the best in the world.

[The Shtick]

...and then there's Annika........yum

[NoBack]