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View Poll Results: Who is to blame for slow play?

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  • The Management for not spacing out the tee times

    39 15.85%
  • The Marshalls for not enforcing pace of play

    83 33.74%
  • The actual slow players, whoever they are

    176 71.54%
  • 6 hour rounds don't bother me

    2 0.81%
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  1. #61
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    There are several factors that contribute to slow play...

    Poor course design
    Slow Players
    Beginner Golfers
    Difficult Course
    Poorly spaced tee times

    As an example, there is a small course I play with a driveable 270 yrd par 4 to start, followed by a very narrow driving 2nd hole with OB the entire left side of the fairway only 10 yards off the fairway. This course is doomed for slow play because golfers wait for the green to clear because they think they will reach the green, and then a lot of golfers lose balls off the 2nd tee.

    Every course should use at least 10 minute intervals because anything less is asking for slow play. Think about it... You tee off at 10am and each golfers takes 60 seconds to get ready and hit off the tee. Golfers then walk to find their balls which might take 3 minutes, followed by each golfer now taking 30 seconds to hit and start walking. That is at least 9 minutes without any real time searching for golf balls, re-hitting off the tee etc... In addition to that 9 minutes, please allow for the players to get far enough ahead so it is safe for the next group to hit.

    Courses should never start with Par 3's and ideally an easy Par 4 that is not too short is best to get players spaced out and off to a smooth start.

    Beginners can also be slow just because ofthe number of shots they take, and as long as they are not wasting time, they have EVERY RIGHT to take EVERY SHOT.

    And we all know about the slow golfers who are just plain slow and ignorant... But those people will never change.

    Unless a course has published "Expected Round Time of x hours" it is tough to deal with slow play. Golfers pay their fees and have the right to play whatever tees they want and as long as they hit and walk and hit and walk, you have no right to complain.

    Some course are just really tough and slow play is inevitable.

  2. #62
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Every course should use at least 10 minute intervals because anything less is asking for slow play.
    Not necessarily true.

    Rideauview has 8 minute intervals and the majority of my rounds come in at 4:15 or less, even on the weekends when it is busy. I think I've had one round that was 4:30.

    Slow play is 99% because of slow players. Some of the other factors you noted can have an effect, but if the players are slow, they will be slow no matter how far apart you space them or how easy the course is.
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  3. #63
    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    I agree but many courses do not train the marshalls properly to ensure that slow play is moved along on public courses, resort courses or private courses have a more liberal attitude for the most part.
    Lefty Lucas
    I am abidextrous, I once golfed right-handed and now I shoot left-handed just as badly!

  4. #64
    Golf Nut justdoit is on a distinguished road justdoit's Avatar
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    My girlfirend was the blame 3 weeks ago at Gatineau.We teed up at 730 am,she hits a nice drive then realizes she forgot her golf shoes in the car...asks the starter if she can go back to get them,he agrees but says make it quick since another group was behind,they all snickered.I walked down the fairway to my ball and waited.She drove in the cart back to her car to get the shoes,cart dies in the middle of the parking lot,after a few minutes it goes again..yes there were snickers that turned into looks of disbelief I am sure !!

  5. #65
    Putter Oasis is on a distinguished road
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    I must say, however frustrating it is to play behind a slow group of golfers, it is equally frustrating to play with people continuously riding you up the #$%^. When me and my buddies play golf we never opt for a cart. Several reasons come to mind. 1. golf is expensive enough as it is without paying the extra for the cart. 2. I actually enjoy the walk. 3. Ever since I started playing I have rarely used a cart and I figure once you start its hard to stop. That being said, me and my friends are not slow golfers and we break 80 on a regular basis. However there is clearly a speed difference between a walker and carter. So when people from behind get angry because we are slowing them down and they are using carts it gets awfully frustrating for us.

    On a side note, I played at Le Sorcier a few summers ago where they have clocks at every hole. We fell behind pace by a few minutes and the marshal followed us and chirped us for several holes! Well after paying the price they charge at that course we were in no mood to be rushed. Golf is a difficult game without the extra pressure! We told that marshal where to go pretty quick. Will never be playing there again. I really don't see how pushing people to go faster and faster actually makes them go faster. Probably leads to more duffed shots in my opinion.

    Patrick

  6. #66
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
    On a side note, I played at Le Sorcier a few summers ago where they have clocks at every hole. We fell behind pace by a few minutes and the marshal followed us and chirped us for several holes! Well after paying the price they charge at that course we were in no mood to be rushed. Golf is a difficult game without the extra pressure! We told that marshal where to go pretty quick. Will never be playing there again. I really don't see how pushing people to go faster and faster actually makes them go faster. Probably leads to more duffed shots in my opinion.Patrick
    Since the course is a business, they have every right to expect golfers to complete their rounds in a reasonable time, let's say an average of 15 minutes per hole. (4.5 h) If a group is slower than the established pace and they are a hole behind the group in front, then they should pick it up or let faster groups go through. Because of their pace, all the groups behind obviously have to play slower than expected. If I was a course owner, I would rather lose one group as a customer, than possible losing many others from the groups behind because of the slow play that the one group has caused. Consideration for others may not be fashionable, but it is appreciated.
    Last edited by BC MIST; 06-24-2012 at 07:29 PM.

  7. #67
    Shotmaker spidey is on a distinguished road spidey's Avatar
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    I would love to say that most golfers play in a reasonable time. But it's obviously not the case if the USGA and R&A have to put a guideline in the rulebook for it.

    In fact, I keep running into more and more arrogant groups that not only refuse to play more quickly, they flaunt the fact that they can play slowly and there's nothing you can do about it. Furthermore, there are more and more marshals (including at our course!!!!) who can't quote this excerpt from the rulebook and won't do anything about it anyway.

    Pace of Play
    Play at Good Pace and Keep Up


    Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.

    It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.
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  8. #68
    Team Match Play Champ 2012 sebber is on a distinguished road sebber's Avatar
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    Carl Brunet is to blame!
    Captain of the Back to Back Ryder Cup Champs 12-13!

  9. #69
    3 Iron Strangebrew is on a distinguished road Strangebrew's Avatar
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    Just to play devil's advocate...

    I have never noticed tips for quick play posted at any clubhouse or on scorecards. I've heard marshall's chirping, but never providing any assistance or guidance. They are there to provide a service aren't they? It's unrealistic to expect casual golfers and those new to the game to play quickly when they haven't been given the tools to do so. I've occasionally noticed articles in golf magazines and tips posted here, but those are preaching to the choir and are not getting to the intended audience.

  10. #70
    Singles Match Play Champ 2009 Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 leftylucas is on a distinguished road leftylucas's Avatar
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    I think if you play at a resort or private club then you have to take an extra shot of the patience serum and really expect a longer round and a much more lenient attitude in general from the marshals. If you can get out early you may lower the possibility of slower play as well.

    At a public course it is the marshals that can really ensure on pace play and it is the courses responsibility to make sure those marshals are properly trained, I mean on pace play means more players on the course having fun!! I believe many courses jam in tee times and do not follow up on pace of play and so the paying customer is left to bear the frustration that ensues.

    The best course marshals I have seen was at a course just south of Orlando where one marshal was stationed at a strategic area at a bottleneck spot on the course and was able to direct us to our tee shots landing areas to speed up play but also explained why he was there. There was also a marshal two holes later helping us out as the landing area was blind once again. This helped greatly. Imagine, marshals helping pace not nagging. The marshals also had walkie/talkies and were communicating which groups needed some guidance. I thought it was great.
    Lefty Lucas
    I am abidextrous, I once golfed right-handed and now I shoot left-handed just as badly!

  11. #71
    Bouche
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    Mackenzie Hughes almost lost the Canadian Men's Amateur Championship because the final group was warned 3 times for them not meeting the time check. It would have been a 3 stroke penalty for the 3 warnings but after 45 minutes with the officials it was appealed and won by the final group.

  12. #72
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouche View Post
    Mackenzie Hughes almost lost the Canadian Men's Amateur Championship because the final group was warned 3 times for them not meeting the time check. It would have been a 3 stroke penalty for the 3 warnings but after 45 minutes with the officials it was appealed and won by the final group.
    Do you know why they won the appeal?

  13. #73
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Do you know why they won the appeal?
    According to the article in the paper they were given incorrect time information by an official.
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  14. #74
    Habitual poster adam is on a distinguished road adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftylucas View Post
    I think if you play at a resort or private club then you have to take an extra shot of the patience serum and really expect a longer round and a much more lenient attitude in general from the marshals. If you can get out early you may lower the possibility of slower play as well.
    Private club = fast pace of play (with no marshalls), there are always exceptions but almost every member will complain when a round goes over 4:15 and will enforce pace of play themselves on anyone who looks to be slowing up the field. It's great
    Even I've never heard of me

  15. #75
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam View Post
    Private club = fast pace of play (with no marshalls), there are always exceptions but almost every member will complain when a round goes over 4:15 and will enforce pace of play themselves on anyone who looks to be slowing up the field. It's great
    I agree with you completely. One of the biggest reasons why I am a member at a private course. I have played 45+ rounds this year, each at a private course, and not a single game has exceeded 4:15. In almost all cases we finish around 3:45-4:00hrs. Resort courses are the only exception (Rocky Crest, Lake Joseph and La Geant).

  16. #76
    Bouche
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Do you know why they won the appeal?
    There was talk about the official giving incorrect times but it also had to do with the crowd following them. Not sure if you know Camelot very well but the last two groups were on 13/14 and you had many followers hanging out on the hill left of 14 green which caused much delay for the final group. They were the only group that had a crowd of more then 20 (My guess would be 50-60 people following them from 14 on). Unfortunately I had to leave for work while they were appealing but it seemed reasonable that the final group justified the fact that they were not the full cause of the delay. The spectators had full roaming powers and nobody was preventing a spectator from walking across the fairway and delaying their shot.

  17. #77
    Pitching Wedge kemcheca is on a distinguished road
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    Having worked as a Marshall at a number of courses, it all starts with the management.. The good ones want people to complete a round in 4 hours. Most of the time the marshall have very limited rights, they are more glorified security guards for free.

    Most public courses do not even have a basic marshall course, it's basically who is connected to who. Most of the time the slow golfers are 3-4 groups ahead and generally do not even realize they are slow. Most of them know the Marshall have no rights so they just ignore you. 40% of the people playing on public courses do not have basic golf 101 Etiquette.

    Besides pace, my second pet peeve is litter on the golf course, most of the time it's beer cans, green fee receipt and cigarette butts. especially on the green. On my shifts I use to pick a full large green garbage bag.

    The best behaved people are the juniors and those under 18, they are open to suggestions and are very obliging. The worst groups are 4 males between 24-30 with a couple of beers or couple where the husband is tying to teach is wife or kids how to play golf when they can't hit a driver more then 100 yards. If you ask them nicely to pick up the pace they think you are speaking a foreign language.

    Pace starts with the managements commitment to doing something and giving marshall some basic rights.

  18. #78
    Pitching Wedge kemcheca is on a distinguished road
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    "Slow golfers are half of the equation when it comes to slow play" Bill Yates founder of Pace Managers systems. The other half is management of the golf course. The number one thing those running golf courses can do, Yates said is space out tee times so the course won't be overcrowded. Overcrowding is like creating rush hour traffic. Golf course owners want to make more money by having more golfers tee off more often. Yates says that blinding landing areas and high fought on the middle of the dogleg are documented pace of play killers because they lead to wave oglers looking for errant shots.

    From On Par book by Bill Pennington, Great read!

  19. #79
    Birdie Sunny D is on a distinguished road Sunny D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftylucas View Post
    I think if you play at a resort or private club then you have to take an extra shot of the patience serum and really expect a longer round and a much more lenient attitude in general from the marshals. If you can get out early you may lower the possibility of slower play as well.

    At a public course it is the marshals that can really ensure on pace play and it is the courses responsibility to make sure those marshals are properly trained, I mean on pace play means more players on the course having fun!! I believe many courses jam in tee times and do not follow up on pace of play and so the paying customer is left to bear the frustration that ensues.

    The best course marshals I have seen was at a course just south of Orlando where one marshal was stationed at a strategic area at a bottleneck spot on the course and was able to direct us to our tee shots landing areas to speed up play but also explained why he was there. There was also a marshal two holes later helping us out as the landing area was blind once again. This helped greatly. Imagine, marshals helping pace not nagging. The marshals also had walkie/talkies and were communicating which groups needed some guidance. I thought it was great.
    Lefty --- have to ask was the course Southern Dunes or Diamondback. I have played both and have the kind of marshall service that you described. One guy in our group was a very long hitter and the marshall radioed ahead to let our marshall know that the one guy was a long range hitter and to take that into account when providing landing area advice. Just seems like an interesting coincidence.

  20. #80
    Birdie Sunny D is on a distinguished road Sunny D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemcheca View Post

    The best behaved people are the juniors and those under 18, they are open to suggestions and are very obliging. The worst groups are 4 males between 24-30 with a couple of beers or couple where the husband is tying to teach is wife or kids how to play golf when they can't hit a driver more then 100 yards. If you ask them nicely to pick up the pace they think you are speaking a foreign language.

    Just had this happen in Colorado. Group in front was Dad and Mom and two kids. Took 23 minutes to play the first hole. Dad was a self proclaimed expert. After the second hole a par 3 that took them 18 minutes the Marshall came by and we could see him talking to the them. He then came by to us, apologized and said he was monitoring. Third hole took 21 minutes. We'd been on the course for almost an hour and had played 3 holes. When they got to the 4th hole they were removed from the course. We then finished the round in 4:30 minutes and we were given a free 18 holes. Customer service and empowered marshall to the rescue.

  21. #81
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouche View Post
    There was talk about the official giving incorrect times but it also had to do with the crowd following them. Not sure if you know Camelot very well but the last two groups were on 13/14 and you had many followers hanging out on the hill left of 14 green which caused much delay for the final group. They were the only group that had a crowd of more then 20 (My guess would be 50-60 people following them from 14 on). Unfortunately I had to leave for work while they were appealing but it seemed reasonable that the final group justified the fact that they were not the full cause of the delay. The spectators had full roaming powers and nobody was preventing a spectator from walking across the fairway and delaying their shot.
    I do know the course and the final decision , considering the circumstances you described, was obviously correct. Interestingly, there were a few Tweets suggesting favouritism and inconsistency about the call. However, as rules officials always do, they gathered all available information before making their ruling. A lesson for some.

  22. #82
    Golf Canada Rules Official L3 tyorke2 is on a distinguished road
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    The marshals can only warn or penalise the players, they still can not control the players. If the players are slow and have their mind set on being slow the marshalls can't do anything other than penalise them

  23. #83
    Sand Wedge hoganblades is on a distinguished road hoganblades's Avatar
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    Let me tell you what I observe here the NYC muni's:
    Very little sense of etiquette. People walking into your fairway to hit their second shots after an errant shot, and they don't respect the fact that it is your fairway, and that they should wait for you. Marking one or two foot putts instead of putting out. Group partners walking ahead of you when you're away, and walking into your line of play. Hitting a skank on a par 3, then leaving the cart half way to the hole after hitting onto the green, and putting out. And then having to walk back 50 yards, or so, while you wait on the tee box. Waiting on the tee box while the guy in front of you waits for the green to clear on a par 5 so he can hit his FW wood a greater distance than his drive to get on in 2. Etc.

    Putt out short putts. Lay up on par 5's when it would take the shot of your life to get on in two. Wave groups up on par 3's. Park your cart between the flag and the next tee box at all times. Put your bag between the green and the next tee box. Be ready to hit when it's your turn -- do your pre-shot routine while the others are hitting, unless you are close enough that it would disturb them. Line up your putt while others are putting, unless you are close enough that it would disturb them. If so, then start your lining up while they are, too. Then pause while they putt. After that, pick up where you left off. Pick up after 8 strokes on a hole. Ditch that ball in the woods after a reasonable search, and drop another.

    I voted for all three selections in the poll because I think they are all to blame. The NYC muni's have always spaced groups too closely together, but compounding this are golfers who are insensitive to those in front, or behind them, and don't know how to keep pace.

    By the way, the pace on Bethpage is no better. The Red Course is bad. Being the second toughest course there, you get posers who are self-absorbed and play slowly. The Black Course is slow because there is so much trouble around that golfers are constantly looking for their balls after almost every shot. The Blue Course is challenging, and gets slow players intent on scoring well. The other two courses at Bethpage tend to get beginners, who play slowly by virtue of being beginners. Red = 6 hrs. Black = 5.5-6 hrs. Blue, Yellow, Green = 6 hrs. Arrrgh!

    Cheers!

  24. #84
    Putter P3 Steve is on a distinguished road
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    When I first started out I was a very slow player. It was because I never could find my ball in the trees haha. I learned to stop going in and looking for them and just drop a ball. I used to be very concerned about other people "catching up with me". I used to let people play through a LOT. But then I started to realize that most of the people didn't seem to appreciate it and then the time I was about to chip onto the green and a ball landed literally 6 inches from left ear. I heard it whiz by me and then thud into the sand trap. Me not so happy and understanding now...

  25. #85
    Consistently present Kiwi is on a distinguished road Kiwi's Avatar
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    Reply to P3 Steve... THAT would go straight to Option #3... Did I see where your ball went? A: Nope!
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  26. #86
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    Hi P3 Steve,
    Believe me, I understand how you feel, and agree with you. When I was starting out, I was much more concerned about those behind me. So much so, that I would become nervous and anxious if the group in front was playing slowly and the group behind was squeezing in on my group. Now, I am able to relax in the situation because there is nowhere to go; I can't move forward, and it is obvious to the group behind because they can see us waiting on the group ahead.

    One time I was walking off the 18th green, just three paces from the flagstick, and a ball came wizzing by my ear. The guy behind stuck the damned shot to 6 inches. Otherwise I would have picked up the ball and thrown it into the woods. I yelled at him. Another time, a ball came wizzing past me after I hooked my drive into the trees -- not deeply. The trees were sparse -- I was in clear sight off the tee. I picked up his ball, and pocketed it until it found the garbage can at the next tee box. The guy wanted me to pick it out of the garbage for him. I replied that it was in there, and he could retrieve it if he likes. He tried to start a physical fight with me. I pushed him away. Fun times!

    Don't get me wrong, I am not aggressive on the course. But I believe that a golfer should never ever hit into the players ahead. I have been hit by a golf ball before, on the fly from 150 yards, as I was walking off a green. Luckily it missed my spine by an inch. It did, however, necessitate a trip to a spine doctor. After a couple of months the wound healed. But during that time, boy were my neck, upper back, and shoulders knotted up! I played like crap during those two months. Arrrrgh!

    Cheers!


    Quote Originally Posted by P3 Steve View Post
    When I first started out I was a very slow player. It was because I never could find my ball in the trees haha. I learned to stop going in and looking for them and just drop a ball. I used to be very concerned about other people "catching up with me". I used to let people play through a LOT. But then I started to realize that most of the people didn't seem to appreciate it and then the time I was about to chip onto the green and a ball landed literally 6 inches from left ear. I heard it whiz by me and then thud into the sand trap. Me not so happy and understanding now...

  27. #87
    Sand Wedge hoganblades is on a distinguished road hoganblades's Avatar
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    Excellent!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    Reply to P3 Steve... THAT would go straight to Option #3... Did I see where your ball went? A: Nope!

  28. #88
    President's Cup Wknd_Warrior is on a distinguished road Wknd_Warrior's Avatar
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    Honestly, I don't like ready golf much, and it shouldn't be required for a timely round. Also I freaking hate being rushed when I play. To me, anything under 4 and a half hours is good, step away from the tee box.

    other things that bug me that really make no diffreence to pace

    People nagging me to hit when the group ahead is still in the fairway because "you can't reach them"
    Being brow beat by the group behind if you take more than 10 seconds to examine a putt
    People hitting into me before I have a chance to get more than 10 feet away from the green
    People that think just because the course is playing a 5 hour round, I should play each hole in under 4 minutes when I finally get to play
    People that think you're the problem cause you take a couple minutes extra once in the round cause you lsot a ball
    People that golf like the equivilent of tailgaters, I don't even like being in the same group much, although I'll play with anyone.

    There is one reasons, and one reason only for slow play, that is players not respecting how long it should take them to play the hole. Typically these are guys that take about as long as possible to make every shot in the first place, so if they are shooting even par they'd be good, but since they aren't they take forever. They think they have a right to take the full amount of time on every shot even if they have to make 6 or 7 strokes a hole.

  29. #89
    Need a Caddy jmwhite is on a distinguished road jmwhite's Avatar
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    It's Matt Cooke's fault.

  30. #90
    7 Iron jlaidley is on a distinguished road jlaidley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior View Post
    There is one reasons, and one reason only for slow play, that is players not respecting how long it should take them to play the hole.
    The reason private clubs have faster play is that
    a) they understand the importance of pace of play ("respect how long....")
    b) it is the same group of players week-in-week out so they can "coach" each other
    But there are still some offenders.

    For public play courses I think Wknd Warrior is exactly right. Infrequent players just don't know that pace of play is important (have to say Wknd Warrior that if you think 4.5 hours is OK, I would suggest you may not be respecting how long the courses say it should take).


    Because a golf course is a one lane highway it only takes one group (sometimes just one player) and everyone on the course has to wait for them. Interesting way to view it: If there are 120 players on the course and a slow group takes just 15 extra minutes, they've wasted 15 minutes of 120 peoples' time. A total of 30 hours of time wasted.
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  5. Slow Play
    By macspesh in forum General Golf Talk
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