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Thread: Thank You Ottawa Senators
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04-18-2006 09:34 PM #1
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Thank You Ottawa Senators
Wow the Sens did a great job of keeping the Rangers off the scoreboard tonight. Which in turn allowed JOE THORNTON of the San Jose Sharks to win the SCORING TITLE
A little bit of history here. Joe is the first NHL player to be traded mid season and win the scoring title.
Joe Thornton with 29 G, 96A for 125 Points.
Joe is the first player in the history of the NHL to be traded mid season and go on to win the scoring title.
His assist total from this season alone (96) is greater than the point total (94) of 2003-04 Art Ross Trophy winner Martin St. Louis. It marks the first time since the 1929-30 season that a player's assist total has surpassed the point total of the prior season's leading scorer. (Frank Boucher had 36 assists in '29-30, while Ace Bailey led the league with 32 points in '28-29) - Only the 11th player in NHL history to record 90+ assists in a single season and the only one to do it while playing for two teams in the season. - Currently, his 96 assists are the 16th most in the history of the NHL - Leads the NHL with 125 points (29-96=125) and assists (96) - Has recorded ten points in the last three games (1-9=10) - 2nd on the Sharks franchise list for single season points (92) - Has recorded at least one point in eight consecutive games (4-15=19) - Has set a new career-high with 125 points (old mark was 101 points, set in 2002-03 with Boston) - Owns Sharks franchise single-season record in assists with 72 in only 57 games. - Has 53 points (11-42=53) in his last 29 games - 76 points (17-59=76) in his last 48 games - 3rd in the NHL in PP assists (40) and 3rd in PP points (11-40=51) - Has registered at least one point in 81.3% of his games played this season (65/80) - 2nd on team in face-off percentage (51.3%)
THANK YOU BOSTON, and to think the Bruins traded him away in mid season
We'll be partying in ST THOMAS tonight boys.
Let the playoffs begin!Last edited by Golfbum; 04-18-2006 at 09:48 PM.
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04-18-2006 09:38 PM #2
And now Tampa wooo!! can't wait till friday
Proud Member BigJohnnys Ryder Cup Team '08
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04-18-2006 09:59 PM #3
Hey Golfbum,
Good reason to party in St. Thomas. One of my friend from Kirkland Lake played with him in St. Thomas. Ryan Sinclair in went on to play at Darmouth U.
He is still a good friend of Joe and I am sure he will be celebrating tonight. He also help a Northern Boy (Cheechoo) win the Rocket Richard trophy.
This is quite an achievement from these 2 young players.
Jean-Guy
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04-18-2006 11:13 PM #4"Richard"Guest
No offense to anyone who is a big Joe fan but 125 points doesn't impress me much considering there are two rookies who scored 100+ points this season.
96 assists does however impress me... but shouldn't a 6'4 centre who makes that much money score a little more than 29 goals? They do pay him to score as well not just set up cheechoo. The guy doesn't shoot enough.
"His assist total from this season alone (96) is greater than the point total (94) of 2003-04 Art Ross Trophy winner Martin St. Louis. It marks the first time since the 1929-30 season that a player's assist total has surpassed the point total of the prior season's leading scorer."
Old rules, if it was going to happen this was the year it was going to happen... don't imagine it happening again for a long time and this also doesn't impress me. I am surprised wayne retz didn't do it the year he had 163 assists.
I'm a huge fan of all canadian players and teams and very excieted that a canadian will be taking home the hart, art ross, rocket richard and hopefully few other awards this year... yes its a big news that he won the art ross and probably the hart but does it impress me... not really. There are many more things in the world of hockey that impresed me more than 125 points winning the scoring title
Dont get me wrong, he is an awesome player, one of he top players in the world THIS YEAR but until he does it a few more times I'm holding off on counting him amoung the top 5 players in the world right now
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04-19-2006 05:31 AM #5
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Originally Posted by Chambokl
Small world.
For thotho, since it appears you do not know how Joe plays the game of hockey my comment is this. Look at his past stats. Joe gets paid to win hockey games. Now it would seem to me that in order to win games you have to score more goals than the other team. In order to score goals someone has to set those goals up. 96 times this year Joe set someone up. He is doing what he gets paid for right there. The puck has to go in the net to win, doesn't matter who puts it in there. Through out Joe's career, in the NHL, OHL and JR B he has been that type of player, the setup guy. Cheechoo had 56 goals this season, most of them because of Joe setting him up. I would tend to say he is getting the job done just fine. Isn't it ironic that the Boston Bruins GM now finds himself out of a job? Hmmmmmmm
BTW, GRETZKY, no doubt the greatest scorer in the NHL had more than double the assists than goals scored. Greatness does not always come by putting the puck in the net. Greatness comes from being a leader on and off the ice and being a playmaker. You can argue old rules, new rules all you want. Back in Wayne's highlight years there was not all the clutch and grab stuff going on like there has been for the last 4-5 seasons. Plus Wayne played on a great team, with 5 Stanley Cups during Wayne's career there. Great teams produce great players. Boston has not exactly been a great team. Being a Sharks fan, I'll be honest here. They were not a great team before Joe arrived. Nor are they a great team like the Oilers were in their big years. You can say whatever you want about rule changes etc etc. Joe won the scoring title, plain and simple. Is he one of the Top 5 players in the NHL right now? I would tend to say yes. Will he continue to be one of the Top 5? Again, that all depends on who he plays with. That goes for any player.
BTW, what team do you support?
RickLast edited by Golfbum; 04-19-2006 at 06:09 AM.
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04-19-2006 07:23 AM #6"Richard"Guest
GB don't get me wrong, I'm a Joe fan as well, but 125 points just doesn't impress me. Am I happy he won the scoring title, I will always want a canadian to beat out a european in any and all hockey stats. I'm a personally happy for him or proud of him. I didn't say he won the scoring title because of rule changes I said his assits total is more than last years point total because of rule changes and if it was going to happen any year this was the only year it could happen. If joe had been with SJ the whole season, I'm sure he would have way more points as well... anyway, my fav team is ottawa but because I live in the city. Before the sens my fav team calgary and montreal. I've always hated the leafs even before they kicked ottawas ass in the playoffs every year.
Its def. a good time to be a SJ fan, they have a legit shot of going to the cup finals this year. I'm going with CAL but it could very easily be DET of SJ as well.
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04-19-2006 09:27 AM #7
It's all about impressing thotho... NHL please take note.
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04-19-2006 10:35 AM #8
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Originally Posted by thotho
Great players make other players into great players. Someone has to PASS THE PUCK before someone else can SCORE.
BTW, JOE's point total is the 3rd highest since 1996. The game of hockey has changed, not only the rules, but the players. Players are bigger, stronger and faster. Goalies are better, far more conditioned than years ago. GAA is down from Grant Fuhr's Stanley Cup years.
What is IMPRESSIVE is the fact Joe was traded mid season and went on to win the scoring title. But you must have missed that fact in my one post. NO OTHER NHL PLAYER HAS WON THE SCORING TITLE AFTER BEING TRADED DURING A SEASON.
IMPRESSIVE?? I think so. Certainly others who understand hockey will think so too.
I bet if he was wearing a SENS Jersey you would think he was impressive.
Wayne Gretzky's Career Statistics
GP G A TOTAL
NHL Totals148789419632857
CAREER PLAYOFF GAMES
PLAYOFFS
GP G A TOTAL
208 122 260 382
So thotho as you can see Wayne's assists far out numbered his goals. So your arguement that Joe did not have an impressive year does not make sense. Sorry.Last edited by Golfbum; 04-19-2006 at 12:53 PM.
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04-19-2006 10:40 AM #9
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Bum, could you sort out those stats? A little hard to read. Not sure what's what.
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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04-19-2006 10:41 AM #10
How many times has an elite player in his prime been traded in mid-season??????? C'mon now, don't go nuts over that stat.
Donny Vantage NFL Guru, since 1974
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04-19-2006 10:51 AM #11
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I do have to agree with the Bum on this one a little. Considering how disinterested Joe looked playing in Boston, the fact he picked up his play and went on to win the Art Ross is impressive.
You do have a point donny, not too often a star was traded early in the year. But in this case a change of scenery was exactly what the doctor ordered. He turned Cheechoo into a star. But the style of play suits Joe better in the west anyways. Give a guy like him more room to move and this is what happens.
Should be a good MVP vote. Can't wait to see how it turns out."A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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04-19-2006 11:04 AM #12
Sure, it's an achievement! But I just find it funny to say that he's the ONLY one to be traded midseason to do it, like there have been many before him traded at midseason. Toot the horn for him, but just omit the 'only person to do it' part.
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04-19-2006 12:58 PM #13
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Originally Posted by fundonny
According to the NHL, no player has done this. This is not just me tooting my horn because he is on my team or he is from my hometown. It's a fact.
So in other words, NHL history was made this season. To me, that is something to cheer about.
Say what you want about him, he owns the 2005/06 Scoring Title. He is the first San Jose Shark to win that award.
This is a quote taken from the San Jose Sharks website, you can go to the site and read it yourself if you think I am making this up.
"Thornton led the League with 125 points (29 goals, 96 assists) in 81 games this season. Since being acquired by the Sharks on Nov. 30, he posted 92 points (2nd in franchise history) and 72 assists (a franchise record) in helping the Sharks to a 36-14-7 record in his 57 games with the team. By recording 125 points overall, he became the most-prolific scorer in the history of NHL by a player who played for two teams in one season and is just the 11th player in NHL history to record 90-plus assists in one season. "
http://www.sjsharks.com/news/news.asp?story_id=2316Last edited by Golfbum; 04-19-2006 at 01:09 PM.
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04-19-2006 01:18 PM #14
That's fine, but he's probably the ONLY elite player to be traded mid-season, in his prime, in the past several decades.
I see why you as a fan of his would celebrate that, but to me it's the scoring title itself that is the big deal, not that he was traded.Donny Vantage NFL Guru, since 1974
Money won is twice as sweet as money earned
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04-19-2006 02:45 PM #15
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Originally Posted by fundonny
Of course, thotho feels it was not an impressive year with 96 assists Afterall that only put Joe 11th on the All Time Assists In One Season list! Now all I need is the Stanley Cup to come to town in late June and all will be well.My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.
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04-19-2006 07:12 PM #16"Richard"GuestWayne Gretzky's Career Statistics
GP-----G-----A--------TOTAL
1487--894--1963-----2857
CAREER PLAYOFF GAMES GP------G-----A------TOTAL
208----122---260-----382
So thotho as you can see Wayne's assists far out numbered his goals. So your arguement that Joe did not have an impressive year does not make sense. Sorry.
If a players assists were going to be more than the total points for the scoring leader the previous year... this would be the year it would happen. 2 reasons...
a) 94 points to win the scoring title is the lowest I have ever seen since I've been watching hockey (if you don't count the 70 in the lockout). you might see it one more two more times in the 90s but not under 94. You would have to go back to the 60's to see a total lower than 94. So 94 points on its own is low anyway.
b) You can't say the new rules didn't contribute to him getting more than 94 assists because that is simply not true. It's fact that there are more power plays this year than last. Scoring is up for many reasons... more power plays, smaller goal equipment, goalies not allowed to touch the puck.. and the other rule changes. Google it if you like. Joe scored 51 power play points. 51 points off the powerplay, the rules didn't help? I wonder how many of his points were in 4 on 4 over time.. let me tell you... 6 points
I think his out of a possible 8 or 9 since his team won or 9 games in OT before a shoot out. So if are more power plays that means more points, if there are more 4 on 4's in regulation that means more points as well.
All I was trying to tell you that its not as big a deal as you make it out to be as this is truely the only season that anything like that had a chance to happen. And donny is right, for a guy to get traded mid season and win the scoring title.. the reason its never happened before is wayne, mario and jagr have had the art ross locked up for about 20 years from 1981 to 2001.
Neither of those guys was going to get traded and no one was going to beat them out for the scoring title. Had any of those guys gotten traded mid season during one of their art ross years they probably would have still won it. Guys who were good enough to beat them in scoring over a season... don't get traded mid season!
As for waynes numbers... that has done nothing to prove your point, at that CAREER pace wanye gretz would have 40 goals on a 125 point season... 11 more than thorton but I'm not about to start comparing joe thorton to the player in the NHL with the most goals and most assits ever! Its just silly
96 assists is impressive. Its the 11th highest total ever as you've said before but for a 6'4 centre to only score 29 goals... for an elite player to only score 29 goals... there something wrong with that.Last edited by "Richard"; 04-19-2006 at 10:24 PM. Reason: fix waynes stats... spacing
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04-20-2006 12:22 PM #17
If someone has 96 assists there is nothing wrong with only having 29 goals. It is a problem if someone is passing to much but this was clearly not the case with Thornton. He is a power forward that is there to get points, that is his role. No one cares whether he gets goals or assits, a point is a point and that is what wins games. Way to go Thornton!!!!! Awesome season.
PinShark
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04-20-2006 03:12 PM #18
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Originally Posted by PinsharkMy opinions are my own, I do not follow others.
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04-20-2006 03:43 PM #19"Richard"Guest
nothing wrong with a 6mil dollar franchise player only scoring 29 goals? Of course there is. He is 23rd among centres in shots taken.. of those centres only 2 have a higher shooting % than him (goals/shots)
He is 76 in the league and of that 11 players have a higher shooting % than him. So say he isn't a goal scorer is BS, the guy CAN put the puck in the net. He just needs to shoot more, score more... IMO
People far less skilled at scoring goals are taking more shots than this guy. Read an article can't find it now but many are calling for him to shoot more. I'll try to find it again later.
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04-20-2006 04:35 PM #20
I think you seem to be forgetting that each one of those 96 assists means that someone else scored a goal. So therefore, does it really matter who put the puck in? I don't see why it would/should. So if he has 29 goals and 96 assists for 125pts, that means that he was in on 125 goals, whether off his stick or not. The goal of hockey is to outscore oponent. So, SJ scored 266 goals, that means that Joe was part of nearly 50% of the teams scoring. If that's not worth 6 mil....
Rich
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04-20-2006 04:37 PM #21
I agree, I think thotho is out to lunch... I thought Adam Oates was a great player, and he was an assist master.
Donny Vantage NFL Guru, since 1974
Money won is twice as sweet as money earned
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04-20-2006 04:40 PM #22
Thotho did you even read my post? Joe Thornton won the scoring title with 125 points. Do you think Jaromir Jagr had a better season because he scored more goals? NO. Well put Rlaw. Doesn't matter who puts the puck in the net.
PinShark
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04-20-2006 04:41 PM #23
Living in Boston some years ago, I use to love watching him. As long as the goals are scored. 125pts is just that, 125pts, which could be broken down to 125 goals. If I'm not mistaken, many European countries/leagues feell that assists are "worth" more than goals.
Rich
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04-20-2006 04:43 PM #24Originally Posted by PinsharkRich
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04-20-2006 04:48 PM #25
That's why individual stats are useless in a team game. They're only useful for agents when they're negotiating new contracts for their players.
When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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04-20-2006 05:24 PM #26"Richard"GuestOriginally Posted by Pinshark
I did read your post but I didn't reply because you said "this was clearly not the case" why is it not the case? Facts? stats? If you are going to say it try to back it up a little bit. If you have such a great shooting % why not shoot the puck a little more? score a few more goals. He will still get his assists as that is his game. Whoever tells you assists and goals are equal is "out to lunch" because they aren't. Sure you can't get the goal without the assits but you can't get the assist without the goal. Look at spezza, look at.. would have had around 85 assits this season if healthy. Savard had 69 assits. Plays with two snippers. Assits are great but I give goals more weight and so does the NHL. Look at player salaries, goal scorers make more money. Do you think a player walks into an abritarion hearing and says... yeah but I scored 50 assits last year, give me more money. NO! Walk in and say you scored 50 goals and they will side with you. Goals are worth more than assists always. Can you get a goal without an assist? YES! assist without a goal? NO!
Even when two players are tied for points the art ross goes to the guy with more goals... not the guy with more assists and thats the way it should because goals are worth more than assits.
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04-20-2006 06:42 PM #27
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Originally Posted by thothoOriginally Posted by thotho
Check the OHL STATS, if you think it is all about scoring goals. There were only two players in the Top 20 OHL Scorers who had more goals than assists, and they finished 15th and 28th on the list.
You can bet your a** that Ron Wilson and Doug Wilson are quite happy paying Joe for setting Mr Cheechoo up so he can score 56 goals. BTW did you check Cheechoo's shots on goal? 317, Joe had 195, so between the two of them they had 512 shots on goal. You think Cheechoo got those shots by skating over the blueline on his own and shooting on goal?
Someone sets em up, someone scores em. Joe can't score from behind the net, and that is where a lot of his passes come from. Why? Because he is so strong on the puck he can control the puck behind the opposing teams net. Plus as you say, Joe is an "ELITE PLAYER", Elite players usually have a lot of defenseman hugging their a**es, which does not allow them direct shots on goal. But it allows them to open up ice for their team mates, which in turn allows them to pass the puck to them, which in turn allows those players to score goals.
Ask any GM in the NHL, "Do you want Joe Thornton on your team?" I bet everyone of them says HELL YES. (OK, maybe not Toronto, Joe is too young for that team )
Thotho, I presented the facts and stats, the Jury and Judges seem to have ruled in my favour on this matter (According the the posts above this one)
CASE CLOSED.My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.
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04-20-2006 07:34 PM #28"Richard"Guest
How old are you? Its a very highschool attitude when you say something like "well everyone agrees with me so nah nah nah boo boo." But ok, does it matter to if people disagree with me on this board? NOT ONE BIT. why would I look at the OHL? does joe play in the OHL? nope. He plays in the NHL so lets keep this to NHL. Yes last time I checked goals were worth 1 point and so were assists.... its always been like that. Of the top 20 point getters in the NHL do you know how many have more goals than assits??? ILYA KOVALCHUK, JONATHAN CHEECHOO, BRIAN GIONTA, SIMON GAGNE and thats in the top 50 scoring. So yes goals are worth more than assits. Lets look at it another way... assists by goalies this year... 71! goals? 1! A goal is harder to get than an assist, no one can dispute that. To score a goal you have to put the puck in the net, to get an assist you can pass the puck to a guy who passes it to another guy... Just remember, two guys can assist on one goal. More stats??? 34 players with 50 or more assists... 5 players with 50 or more goals. Goals are worth more than assits. As for Cheechoos 317 shots, no he didn't get all of them from walking up and shooting the puck, he had joe on the ice with him but then how you explain ovechkins shot total? you don't need someone setting you up to take 317 shots. Anyway, we aren't going to see eye to eye. In every which way a goal is more important than an assist. Stats prove it, players salaries prove it... but hey if you want me to say Joe thorton had a great season and deserves the hart trophy.. I've already said that a bunch of times. He should get it and will get it even though I am more impressed with jagrs stats since goals are harder to get than assits. The reason Joe should get it more than Jagr isn't because he has more points but because he is more valuable to his team. You PM'd me the other day but I never head back with a reply, you said that every GM would take Torton over any other centre in the league but I doubt anyone would take him over crosby. I would get you every single one of them would take the kidd over thorton. If I could pick one player to start a frachise around, yes thoron is that good that he would be somewhere in my top 5 behing ROBERTO LUONGO, MIIKKA KIPRUSOFF, ALEXANDER OVECHKIN and SIDNEY CROSBY. I don't think I would take anyone else ahead of him but I'm sure if I gave it some serious thought I might be able to come up with one or two more players to build a team around but being 5th or 6th on that list is very good
Last edited by "Richard"; 04-20-2006 at 07:54 PM.
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04-20-2006 08:04 PM #29Originally Posted by thotho
Ovechkin has a high shot total because that's his style of game - he can create chances for himself.
Cheechoo has a high shot total only because he has Joe Thornton creating chances for him. I know there is no stat for creating scoring chances, but this is what great players do - some just do it differently than others. It can be done either by making room for yourself and getting a shot out of it, or by making room for others and giving them a chance to score. Take away Joe Thornton, and Cheechoo has 25, 30 goals tops this year. Take away Joe Thornton, and the Sharks are bottom feeders along with the Blues.
Is it harder to get a goal than an assist? not necessarily. Some assists, granted, are garbage assists. There are also garbage goals - hits a players leg, goalie gives it away behind the net, etc. But look at the type of assists Thornton was getting - he was creating the chances - many of Cheechoo's goals are what you would call garbage goals, where any putz could have managed to put the puck in.
Look at the top goal scorers again - with the exception of maybe Jagr and Ovechkin, all the guys who are up near the top are there because they have linemates to set them up - I'm not saying they deserve no credit, but if you ask them, they would no doubt credit their setup guys as much as themselves. Heatley and Alfie are up there because they've got a guy like Spezza to feed them. Kovalchuk has Hossa. Gionta is there almost solely because of Elias' return and Gomez' 50 plus assists. Cheechoo has Thornton.
Prolific goal scorers almost always have prolific setup men. Now, you might say that those setup men are only good because they're playing with such good linemates. Gretzky? Francis? Oates? Forsberg? These guys are incredible players. It takes more than goalscorers to win games. The best players of all time are all there because they can pass. Even a guy like Lemieux, who everbody knows as a goal scorer, some of his most impressive plays are his assists.
Goals win crowds, assists win championships.
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04-20-2006 08:27 PM #30
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How old am I? FIFTY
So I have seen a lot more hockey than you, and that is obvious because I know that at one time goals were worth two points, assists worth one point. That is a fact and any older guy on this forum will tell you that. So right there is one mistake you made.
How do I come to the conclusion the majority of the people here agree with me on Thornton? I read their comments. Oh and I did not say nah nah nah boo boo, you said that. So please do not put words in my mouth.
Did I mention Crosby? No, I said "Ask any GM in the NHL if they would take Thornton"
Crosby is good, no doubt about that. But if I was a GM and I wanted a power forward I would take Thornton in a heartbeat over Crosby. I would take Ovechkin over Crosby. Why? Because Crosby proved himself to be a whiner this past season. I would not want a whiner as a franchise player. So you take the kid, I will take the true power forward. Like Crosby, Joe has been a superstar all of his hockey career. He was first pick in the OHL draft, he was first pick in the NHL Draft. He played on the Canadian JR Team as a 16 year old, so he has had a prolific hockey career. You have likely not followed Joe's hockey career like I have, for the reason that Joe is from my city, I know him personally. Hence I have followed his career.
Oh by the way, when The Kid played in the Memorial Cup Final last year in London against the Knights, he was shut down. Great players find a way to make plays, and he just did not get the job done.
You know it is rather obvious that I do not like you, you do not like me. So I will not bother responding to your posts about this subject. You can carry on with all of your stats, and display your lack of knowledge about the game of hockey.Last edited by Golfbum; 04-20-2006 at 08:38 PM.
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