Thank You Ottawa Senators

["Richard"]

It’s true you can get a garbage assist. And its true you can get a garbage goal but that garbage goal might have two assists attached to it... assists are just easier to get than goals. That is obvious since there are more assists to go around than goals. Every one goal can have two assists. I mean, goals get assists! If you told someone who didn't know much about hockey that all the goalies in the league combined would have more assists than Jason spezza... the centre on the highest scoring team they would think you are crazy. But To me that would be close. Yes its true a goal and an assist is worth the same in terms of total points, I'm not stupid enough to dispute that but to all GMs a goal scorer is more valuable than a play maker, there is 100 years of salaries to back that up, and in the rare cases like Mario and gretz.. Well they would fill the nets with a ton of goals as well. Savard had a ton of assists this year, more than he has ever had in his career. Its true that he got most of those assists because he plays with hossa and I.K. but he still did get those assists. Do you think he is going to se a huge bump in salary. I'm sure he will get raise but nothing crazy. Spezza and cheecho both had great years. Spezza would have had 85 assists and 23 goals had he played the full season (extrapolating of course) for a total of 108 points and cheechoo had 93 points, 56 of which were goals and won the rocket richard trphy for most goals... HAD spezza played the whole season and HAD he actually put up 108 points who would get a bigger contract if they were FAs? Both have been in the league 3 years, both had break out years... The guy who scored 56 goals or the guy who had 15 more points than the guy who had 56 goals? Keep in mind that spezza is 3 years yonger as well... cheecho would still get more money if not the same amount of money and would have been outscored by15 points! Perfect example, Bure was at one point was making 10mil a season, oats never made close to that. Bure had ONE 50 goal season and oates had 97 assists and 90 assists around the same time as bures 50 goals. Why didn't he get paid accordingly? Because GMs know and coaches know that a goal scorer is more valuable than a player who sets him up. Any idiot can get an assist. In most cases you put a scrub on a line with a two snippers and he will get a ton of assists... that is obviously not the case with joe thorton but I'm just making a point. Its easier to get assists than goals and hence goals are worth more.. to coaches, GMs, fans... I mean its even in their contacts, if you score 30 goals you get this, if you score 50 goals you get this.. yes there are total point based incentives as well but those include goals as well. I've never head of a purely assist based insentive. Anyway.. my head is hurting. I, thotho think goals are worth more than assists, GMs think so as well because they pay more for goals than assists. Hockey pools (some of them) give 1 point for goals and ½ a point for assists because there are twice as many chances for an assist than a goal. I hope that clear as I’m not going to re-read it or spell check it (do I ever?)

["Richard"]

Give me any centre in the NHL right now, and I would take Joe over any of the current players and so would a lot of GM's.

That is what I was refering to, its from the PM you sent me yesterday. I am certain every single GM in the NHL right now would trade Thorton straight up for Crosby... in a heart beat.

You know it is rather obvious that I do not like you, you do not like me. So I will not bother responding to your posts about this subject. You can carry on with all of your stats, and display your lack of knowledge about the game of hockey.

Unlike you, I do not form opions about people on msg boards. So what, we dont see eye to eye. It started when you went nuts on me last year when I asked what the big deal with the old course was and that it looked like a cow patch... Private msg after private msg of swearing. Was it really nec. to take it so personal? did you make the course? does it have anything what so ever to do with you? You seem to take everything i say personally. But thats ok, it will not change the way I post or make me bite my tongue before I express an opinion on this site

If goals used to be worth two points that proves my point even more.. are you suggesting you know more about hockey than GMs and the NHL? if goals used to be worth more poitns doesn't that tell you they are more valuable? Just because they don't practise that now doesn't mean its still not true. Were assists ever worth more than goals? I'm done with this thread, I can't say what I've said any more clearly. Congrats to joe on a great season and congrats to him on winning the art ross. Canadian players rule!

[jonf]

It’s true you can get a garbage assist. And its true you can get a garbage goal but that garbage goal might have two assists attached to it... assists are just easier to get than goals. That is obvious since there are more assists to go around than goals. Every one goal can have two assists. I mean, goals get assists! If you told someone who didn't know much about hockey that all the goalies in the league combined would have more assists than Jason spezza... the centre on the highest scoring team they would think you are crazy. But To me that would be close. Yes its true a goal and an assist is worth the same in terms of total points, I'm not stupid enough to dispute that but to all GMs a goal scorer is more valuable than a play maker, there is 100 years of salaries to back that up, and in the rare cases like Mario and gretz.. Well they would fill the nets with a ton of goals as well. Savard had a ton of assists this year, more than he has ever had in his career. Its true that he got most of those assists because he plays with hossa and I.K. but he still did get those assists. Do you think he is going to se a huge bump in salary. I'm sure he will get raise but nothing crazy. Spezza and cheecho both had great years. Spezza would have had 85 assists and 23 goals had he played the full season (extrapolating of course) for a total of 108 points and cheechoo had 93 points, 56 of which were goals and won the rocket richard trphy for most goals... HAD spezza played the whole season and HAD he actually put up 108 points who would get a bigger contract if they were FAs? Both have been in the league 3 years, both had break out years... The guy who scored 56 goals or the guy who had 15 more points than the guy who had 56 goals? Keep in mind that spezza is 3 years yonger as well... cheecho would still get more money if not the same amount of money and would have been outscored by15 points! Perfect example, Bure was at one point was making 10mil a season, oats never made close to that. Bure had ONE 50 goal season and oates had 97 assists and 90 assists around the same time as bures 50 goals. Why didn't he get paid accordingly? Because GMs know and coaches know that a goal scorer is more valuable than a player who sets him up. Any idiot can get an assist. In most cases you put a scrub on a line with a two snippers and he will get a ton of assists... that is obviously not the case with joe thorton but I'm just making a point. Its easier to get assists than goals and hence goals are worth more.. to coaches, GMs, fans... I mean its even in their contacts, if you score 30 goals you get this, if you score 50 goals you get this.. yes there are total point based incentives as well but those include goals as well. I've never head of a purely assist based insentive. Anyway.. my head is hurting. I, thotho think goals are worth more than assists, GMs think so as well because they pay more for goals than assists. Hockey pools (some of them) give 1 point for goals and ½ a point for assists because there are twice as many chances for an assist than a goal. I hope that clear as I’m not going to re-read it or spell check it (do I ever?)

If you look at Joe Thornton, I bet you almost all of his assists are the "first assist" ie, he's the one who makes the pass to the goal scorer. And besides that, a lot of the secondary assists are just as important/difficult to make as the primary assist. I know that statistically an assist is more easy to get (and if that is your point, then you are right). But regardless of statistics, I say that making a great assist is no easier than scoring a great goal.

As far as goalie assists are concerned, a lot of those assists are actually quality assists. Sure, some come from saves, but more and more of those assists are from long bomb passes down the ice, which can be mighty impressive from a goalie.

The Bure-Oates example is interesting. But like I said, goals win crowds, assists win championships. It's really hard to justify to fans paying 10 million bucks to a guy like oates who, although he will help your team dramatically, isn't as exciting a product. You can pay that kind of money for a Bure because flashy players sell tickets.

As for Cheechoo vs Spezza, based on this year, I would rather have Spezza than Cheechoo...depending on my team. Cheechoo has only proven that he can score if he is working with a great setup man. Spezza is a guy with more natural talent and vision for the game. If I already have a set up guy, sure, I would pay more money for Cheechoo. But if I already have a natural goal scorer and no true setup man, I wouldn't waste my money on a guy who hasn't proven that he can score on his own.

i guess what I'm saying is that, really, goal scorers and playmakers are pretty much equal in value - it really depends on your team. A playmaker can make goalscorers out of nobodies, and a goalscorer can make goals playing with nobodies. A team needs both and I think that to value a goal more than an assist ignores the many additional factors that go into the number of goals/assists a player has.

[jonf]

You know it is rather obvious that I do not like you, you do not like me. So I will not bother responding to your posts about this subject. You can carry on with all of your stats, and display your lack of knowledge about the game of hockey.

Woah there...no need to get personal. Just a friendly debate about hockey. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about hockey either. Thotho seems to have his knowledge pretty well in order, just has a different take on what it all means.

["Richard"]

although I'm done debating my opinion in this thread because I think I've said everything I can say... I do want to say one more thing. over the last few years in school, I look at numbers, stats and probabilites all day long, yes its true there is a lot more to sports than just numbers but then numbers dont lie either. You can tell a lot about a team, its players by looking at stats and in the end, stats is all you really do have to go on to compare players to other players. It is what they use in arbitartion as well. I'm a numbers guy, if I see two players in the NBA with identical stat lines except that one guy has more points but the other guy has more steals or blocks then I go with the guy with more steals and blocks. Andre kirilenko is perhaps the most under rated player in the NBA (along with pao gasol) but this guy is a monster. He will give you 15 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists, one or 2 steals and 3 or four bloocks.. that to me is worth more than a guy who scores 30 points a game and barely contirbutes to any of the other stats. so why so big on goals in hockey but not in basketball? basketball the points are very easy to come by, its the other stuff that is hard to get and so I put more weight on that stuff. You can't really make the salary arguement because everyone is signed to a max contract these days. Kirilenko is signed to one, gasol is signed to one and rashad lewis who just scores and doesn't nothing else is also signed to one.

As for the other thing, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Not everyone likes everyone, some people just rub some people the wrong way and if he doesn't care for me thats fine, I won't lose sleep over it. it is funny however that he gets mad at me for me saying he said "nah nah nah boo boo" which no one in their right mind would beleive he said and can clearly see that he didnt' say yet takes offence and accuses me of putting words in his mouth but then turns around and tells me that I don't like him. Fine, if you don't like me thats fine, but to tell someone that they dont' like you.. thats a bit silly. I don't like him or dislike him. I don't know him

I LOVE SPORTS!!!!

[jonf]

I LOVE SPORTS!!!!

I love sports too....PLAYOFF TIME

[fundonny]

.

Prolific goal scorers almost always have prolific setup men. Now, you might say that those setup men are only good because they're playing with such good linemates. Gretzky? Francis? Oates? Forsberg? These guys are incredible players. It takes more than goalscorers to win games. The best players of all time are all there because they can pass. Even a guy like Lemieux, who everbody knows as a goal scorer, some of his most impressive plays are his assists.

Goals win crowds, assists win championships.

Man, I remember back in the 2002 Olympics, when Lemieux let that pass go between his legs, after making it look like he was going to shoot it, and it went to Kariya for a one timer goal. One of the best plays I've ever seen a player make. Some goals are great plays, some goals are the result of great plays.

[jonf]

Exactly...that's one of the ones I was thinking of. Best play of the Olympics, and he didn't even get an assist for it.

[TourIQ]

although I'm done debating my opinion in this thread because I think I've said everything I can say... I do want to say one more thing. I LOVE SPORTS!!!!

Hi thotho

Golfbum was spot on mate ...

I remember a kid at school who played basketball and was a 'shot hog'. Great athlete BUT he would never pass for someone else to make an easy 2-points.
With Gretzky getting more assists than goals, I think that dispells any logic to believe the other side of the coin. Just like in baseball. You don't need the
'juiced' home run king, just the players who know how to get on base.

[jonf]

I do have to jump in on this point. Yes, Gretzky got twice as many assists as he did goals. But he is also the all time leading goal scorer. So, although clearly assists were a huge part of his game, its unfair to use him as an example of the importance of assists over goal scoring. He was great because he could do everything. I don't think that anyone would argue that a player who can lead the league in both goals and assists is an incredible player. The question that is being debated, howeer, is whether assists are as valuable as points. I still say that they are, but the Gretzky example doesn't really demonstrate it.

[LobWedge]

The only thing that matters is how many goals are on the scoreboard at the end of the game, not who scored them, or how they got there. It's a team game. You can score a crap load of goals and assists and never win a championship. (Does the name Mats Sundin ring a bell, Cam Neely maybe...?)

Look at Dan Marino. He's got 1,300 more pass attempts than the closest active QB to him, led the NFL in completions 6 times, 9,000 more yards than the guy in 2nd place, 44 more TD passes than the next guy, but he never brought home the Lombardi Trophy. The next 2 guys on those lists have 3 Superbowls between them. A magnificent individual effort for sure, but a big, fat "*" to have hanging from your neck in a team sport...

[jonf]

Listen, I;m not debating the value of the team. I have already said that I believe goals and assists are equally important. Marino, incidently, is still believed to be one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game. Also, we're not talking about leadership here, or winning the big game (Thornton has never won a stanley cup either). I fail to see any relationship between Marino never winning the Superbowl and Thornton being a setup guy rather than a scorer. The debate over whether or not winning is what makes a player great is entirely different (see now defunct michelle wie thread).

[fundonny]

Let's not drag a great NFL quarterback into this debate. And for sanity's sake, forget Michelle Wie. It's wrong but we can't do anything about it.