Had a golf lesson today but my distance are all off now!

[el tigre]

Got my driver numbers and my 6 iron numbers mixed up. Regardless, my 6 iron has dropped about 25 yards on the monitor and my driver even more. LOL I thought lessons were supposed to make me better, not steal my yardage away

Any indoor machine cannot tell you ACTUAL distances. They make guesses based on data. You've changed your swing, which has changed the ALL of the data - not just the swing speed - and as a result the machine made a different calculation. You need to hit outside - preferably at an actual golf course - to validate your club distances before you can make ANY conclusions.

Besides, in all liklihood you are now hitting down on the ball more, and thus getting a higher trajectory along with the better contact. Better contact = more consistency = better average distance and lower scores. Most machines give more distance to hard swingers and decrease distance at higher trajectories. Doesn't always translate in the real world though.

And FWIW, the purpose of the game is to get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes. Its not a long-drive contest. Who cares if your 150-yard club has a "6" or a "7" on the bottom - as long as you can stick the pin with it from 150 yards away.

[fundonny]

Distance is a major advantage. There's no question.

[dH]

Yeah on say a 350yrd par 4.

Imagine this.

300 Yard drive ; 2nd shot ; 50 yard pitch
250 yard drive ; 2nd shot ; wedge!
200 yard drive ; 2nd shot ; 7iron or higher (if you only drive 200 yards)
150 yard drive ; 2nd shot; lets not go there.

Obviously there is an advantage; I do see el_tigre's point clearly though.

[Nat Williams]

How far do you want a 6i to go?

Depends on what I'm up to, but if it has to be dead straight start to finish we're looking at no more than 185 or so...if i am cutting it, around 190 (i swing through a little harder on cut shots, get them up in the air, and they carry a little long) ... if I'm drawing about the same as the cut, maybe +5 yards, and if I really need it to move (i.e. can't go to a lower loft because of the lie) I can put a draw on it with a little extra ooomph and it'll go further.

also, i'm quite comfortable easing up on it and playing it to 175, 180 etc... all depends o nthe conditions

[el tigre]

Depends on what I'm up to, but if it has to be dead straight start to finish we're looking at no more than 185 or so...if i am cutting it, around 190

Not wanting to pick on you, but anyone who hits these kind of numbers with a 6-iron should be on the long-drive circuit. This is not representative of the average golfer, and I always cringe when I see long-hitters post their yardages because they tend to create unrealistic expectations for most of the people reading them.

If you check the link in BC Mist's "Equipment Myths" thread, you will see that the average distance on the PGA Tour for a 5-iron is 185 from the fairway and 197 from the tee. Which probably translates to between 175-185 for a 6-iron. Which means the shorter-hitting pros are in the 165-175 range for a 6-iron. Which means us mere mortals should probably be... well, you get the picture. Most of the people I've seen seem to be in the 155-175 range.

I know there are many long-hitting amateurs out there, but IMHO trying to live up to the "you should be hitting your 6-iron XX number of yards" is detrimental to your game in the long run. Of course, everyone would like to hit the ball farther (myself included), but consistent sweet-spot contact is WAAAY more important than 20 extra yards.

[Nat Williams]

but IMHO trying to live up to the "you should be hitting your 6-iron XX number of yards" is detrimental to your game in the long run.

Completly agree, that's why when the question was 1st asked i said that I didn't want to put a specific # on the 6i, just that 140 is low for someone that is young and fit... it wasn't until specifically asked a 2nd time that I provided my personal #'s .

I also agree that accuracy is important, but we can't discount the role of distance.

eg. we have two thotho's (yikes!). One is 70% fairways and has a 140yrd 6i (and all other clubs are relative), thotho2 has a 180yrd 6i and is 50% fairways.

using the fairway %'s as a basis for evaluating their overall accuracy w/ full swings, let's put them both on a 6500+ course. I would bet o nthe thotho w/ 180 6i everytime. The shorter one cannot keep up. It's too many fairway woods into greens, and saves on par 4's after coming up short...those 'long' shots will counter any benefits of accuracy. There is amiddle rgound that everyone has to find in their swing, and I just don't think that 140-155 yrd 6i for the average 20 something male in good shape is that middle ground.

re: the stats:

One thing that must be considered when dealing with pros is that it is not smart to hit it @ 100% . So when a pro averages 185 yards out of the fairway, does that mean he can hit his 5i 185 yards? he can hit it alot longer. A perfect example would be when woods finds himself in the rough and takes a 7i a ridiculously long distance, but later uses a 7i to make a 165yrd shot. In the 1st scenerio he needed all the loft he could get, but also needed distance, in the 2nd distance wasn't an issue, but control was.

As i stated at the end of my post, I'll often (especially when playing well and not angry lol) use a 6i to go 175 yards... it's easy and controlled ... Just like I'll take a PW from 120 when it can go much farther.

Although I understand what you are getting @ with the stats, I do believe that the averages are slightly misleading, especially since it's just shot link's calculations, and they can't say for sure if player X was taking a full shot, or easing up on it when he hit it 180yrds and use that in their calculations.

["Richard"]

ThoTho, have you tried going down to the docks driving range?... i know its pavement but atleast you can see what your carry distance is.

I guess I will have to give it a try sometime next week. Swamped with work and school right now. I love it!

["Richard"]

we have two thotho’s (yikes!).

I would bet on the thotho w/ 180 6i everytime. The shorter one cannot keep up.

Assuming you've all read my penutbutter thread and my confession that thotho means penis.. and the that fact that in terms of maturity I'm only 12 years old... I've selected the parts of this post that are hilarious to me. Now you know what fun its been for me for the last year being called thotho.

[Nat Williams]

LOL never read that that's what it meant

[Pinshark]

Golf is not a game of distance but a game of accuracy.

[Nat Williams]

Golf is not a game of distance but a game of accuracy.

within reason.

[el tigre]

Completly agree, that's why when the question was 1st asked i said that I didn't want to put a specific # on the 6i, just that 140 is low for someone that is young and fit... it wasn't until specifically asked a 2nd time that I provided my personal #'s .

I highly doubt that his 140-yd 6-iron reflects reality. It is only a reading from a machine.

eg. we have two thotho's (yikes!). One is 70% fairways and has a 140yrd 6i (and all other clubs are relative), thotho2 has a 180yrd 6i and is 50% fairways.

using the fairway %'s as a basis for evaluating their overall accuracy w/ full swings, let's put them both on a 6500+ course. I would bet o nthe thotho w/ 180 6i everytime. The shorter one cannot keep up. It's too many fairway woods into greens, and saves on par 4's after coming up short...those 'long' shots will counter any benefits of accuracy. There is amiddle rgound that everyone has to find in their swing, and I just don't think that 140-155 yrd 6i for the average 20 something male in good shape is that middle ground.

Like most things in golf, it depends on the course and the player.

There are a few courses in the area where you never, ever want to be in the rough. Its at least 2 extra clubs swinging hard and you have very little control over the ball flight. Obviously, accuracy wins there. I've also played courses that don't really have any rough at all. Grip it and rip it wins there.

Coincidentaly, MY 6i distance is about 155 yards and I don't have a problem getting around a 6,500 yard course. I hit greens with fairway woods all the time - probably just as often as with irons. But that's just my game. We're all different.

re: the stats:

One thing that must be considered when dealing with pros is that it is not smart to hit it @ 100% . So when a pro averages 185 yards out of the fairway, does that mean he can hit his 5i 185 yards? he can hit it alot longer. A perfect example would be when woods finds himself in the rough and takes a 7i a ridiculously long distance, but later uses a 7i to make a 165yrd shot. In the 1st scenerio he needed all the loft he could get, but also needed distance, in the 2nd distance wasn't an issue, but control was.

ShotLink stats are based on EVERY shot taken by EVERY player in EVERY event on the PGA Tour. That's hundreds of thousands of golf shots. For every shot hit from deep rough on a wet course there was another hit downhill downwind from a perfect lie on a super dry fairway. All the variables have been averaged out.

As i stated at the end of my post, I'll often (especially when playing well and not angry lol) use a 6i to go 175 yards... it's easy and controlled ... Just like I'll take a PW from 120 when it can go much farther.

In a way you're proving my point here. It almost doesn't matter how far you CAN hit your clubs, other than give you more options that aren't available to a shorter hitter. The important thing is, you've got 120 yards to the pin under a certain set of conditions - which combination of club and swing gives you the best chance of doing that? If the answer is a controlled PW, then why would you EVER pull a SW out of the bag even though you're able to hit it 120 yards?

[fundonny]

Have to specify that my yardage posting was from the tee, not off the fairway.

[Nat Williams]

el Tigre ...

we are basically on the same page here.. I am not advocating that you need to be as long as possible, I am just saying that distance cannot be left o nthe backburner as a 'lesser' vs. accuracy...both play equal and important roles in being a successful golfer.

Coincidentaly, MY 6i distance is about 155 yards and I don't have a problem getting around a 6,500 yard course. I hit greens with fairway woods all the time - probably just as often as with irons. But that's just my game. We're all different.

I am sure you can get around, but what I was saying is that there are limitations to what you can do. If it's a 450yrd par 4, you aren't getting there in 2, and if you are it's w/ really long clubs for both shots, meanwhile a longer competitor will be taking short irons into the green all day. It's an uphill battle to consistently take the longer 2nd shot and expect to beat them.

Also, being shorter prevents the opprotunity from being able to go really low on a course. It is much harder to make a birdie when unable to make the green in 2 than it is when taking a wedge into the green for your second shot.

now let's say the course is 6600 yards, are you still able to get around>? probably, but how about 6700, 6800, 6900? etc...these lengths are not uncommon, but at some point, you will have trouble keeping up. Distance plays a strong role in one's ability to play golf. And of course so does accuracy, I am just surprised at how little value people seem to be putting on distance in this thread.

In a way you're proving my point here. It almost doesn't matter how far you CAN hit your clubs, other than give you more options that aren't available to a shorter hitter. The important thing is, you've got 120 yards to the pin under a certain set of conditions - which combination of club and swing gives you the best chance of doing that? If the answer is a controlled PW, then why would you EVER pull a SW out of the bag even though you're able to hit it 120 yards?

I agree that it doesn't matter how far they can go, within reason. The problem is that there is a point where you are so short, that it puts you at a significant disadvantage. As for why I'd ever use the SW (well, it would be a gap, can't get an SW to go 120) instead of a PW .. that's easy, sometimes you aren't in the best spot, and need as much loft as you can get (back to the tiger reference in my earlier post)...


i am NOT saying that distance > accuracy ...

[el tigre]

Yeah, we are basically on the same page. Would I like to have more distance? Of course I would - if the price was right. In my case, I know that my distances are heavily influenced by my high ball flight trajectory, and there are both advantages and disadvantages to that.

But all I really care about is better ball-striking, and then the distance vs accuracy thing will take care of itself. Thotho is getting better ball-striking after his first lesson, but IMHO he seems overly-concerned about the 6-iron distance number he got from a machine.

I'm guessing thotho will go to the course and find that he's hitting it 150-160 but without any fat or thin shots and a lot less dispersion. After a few more lessons his numbers will probably go up to maybe 155-165 - again without any fat/thin shots and a lot straighter.

But even though his scores are lower, he might still be hung up on the fact that he lost 10 yards off his 6-iron, when he took lessons because he thought he could gain 10 yards. Believe me, thotho would not be alone in having that reaction. A lot of that "angst" can probably be traced to the fact that people believe they should be hitting a 6-iron a certain distance, when in reality that distance is more suitable to a professional or scratch golfer.

[dH]

Lots of people speak from there own perspective as well and have different goals. If you wish to be a good recreational golfer than no distance isn't imperative; however if you are striving for any kind of tour etc than you should focus on getting every yard possible without sacrificing tooo much accuracy. Especially with long irons. I'd rather have an extra ~15 yards w/ my 5iron and maybe hit to the first cut of rough but than be able to use a wedge to get there instead of having to blast a 3 wood. Either way they are both important but for a recreatinal golfer it's not as important as there are so many other flaws in the game that distance is the last concern of why we aren't getting "LOW" like subpar lol. IF i had started younger and/or shot around a 1 handicap I bet distance would be alot more important to me; or anyone else in that position for tha tmatter. It just makes things easier if your always closer and using shorter irons I'd say.

[fundonny]

Chicks dig the long ball...

[Kilroy]

The shorter hitter will always at a bit of disadvantage. Not only do they have longer approach shots into the green, but also need more club from any given distance. From 185 Nat would have a 6 iron, and a I would need a 5 wood on a good day. No doubt who is more likely to get it close.

Take 2 PGA tour players of equal accuracy... length wins. Just like any A class group.

Having said that; I used to think that gaining distance would be the key to lower scores, but this past year I decided that I would not try so hard too keep up with the longer players, accept my limitations, and concentrate on accuracy. My scores improved. I have always had a pretty good short game so if I don't spray the ball I can sometimes win over longer hitters who spray it a bit. B and C class. A great variety of strengths and weeknesses in each player.

So I think it depends on the level of player. Most of us would bennefit more from better accuracy.

[Colby]

Chicks dig the long ball...

Only if you are on Tour. I don't see many of them hanging out on the Munis looking for power hitters.

Anyway, the chest thumping has taken away from the initial focus of this thread, which was that after lessons, don't look for immediate improvements, and things may actually get worse before they get better. Practice all you can OFF the course, play when you are on the course. If you have been effective at practice, the play on the course should just happen.

[Nat Williams]

I have always had a pretty good short game

I coulda sworn I just read a thread the other day in which you admitted to taking a lob wedge all the way AROUND a green

j/k

[Kilroy]

That was a very loooonng time ago.

I think a lot of us get the shanks occasionaly eh Geoff?

[leftylucas]

Hey Thotho, I too took lessons this past winter and I can tell you that my yardage did diminish like you have seen. The good news is that with time and practice I have been able to get the distance back. Similar to you, my swing is now smoother and controlled and I can already see improvement in my game.

The distance will come back.

[el tigre]

Anyway, the chest thumping has taken away from the initial focus of this thread, which was that after lessons, don't look for immediate improvements, and things may actually get worse before they get better.

Colby, I actually don't buy into that theory. There should be some improvement, and it sounds to me like there actually was improvement in thotho's case. The key is how you define "better".

IMHO "better" means better contact, on the correct swing path, more often. But for a lot people, "better" really means "longer". Well, if someone says their driver distance is 290 - but they're swinging out of their shoes and hitting pop-up's 20% of the time, worm-burners another 20% of the time and banana slices 40% of the time - then "better" does not mean getting to that magic 300-yard mark. For that guy, "better" probably means dialing it down and "losing 20 yards off the driver" - but getting there more often and in a straight line.

The focus of this thread has as much to do with expectations from taking lessons as it does with actual performance. For many people, their expectations - especially their short-term expectations - are unrealistic.

[leftylucas]

I agree El Tigre, I have improved with lessons and although I am 10-15yds shorter in driving distance I am probably 50% more accurate which translates into better positions to the green, better chances at par, better scores on the scorecard. I did see some improvement when taking lessons but I think the point is that often the transition period may see some really crappy swings as your learn the newer techinique.

[dH]

I almost gave up the 1st day or so after getting lessons. I just have to keep reminding myself that when learning something new it should feel awkward; if the perfect swing was how everyone swings it naturally golf would be a different story.

[Colby]

Colby, I actually don't buy into that theory. There should be some improvement, and it sounds to me like there actually was improvement in thotho's case. The key is how you define "better".

In almost every case I've seen where people have taken lessons, there has been a reversal in scoring, which is the ultimate test of "better", but only in the short term and as long as they keep up with the practice and work ethics. This is why a lot of people don't go back for lessons, and revert back to what they were doing before. I also feel that it one of the huge benefits of taking lessons over the winter at a place like the OAC where you hit the ball into a net, not worrying about ball flight, but concentrating on grip, posture, starting position and finish and finally the swing.

It's all perception. Even if he is making better contact, the results will not be satisfactory until the adjustments take hold and everything starts working together. Then the results show up in the game.

["Richard"]

So here is an update. My distance is back. Its the same as it was before. Except less effort, more straight and my back isn't hurting like it used to when i was trying to swing my driver at 115mph. I'm standing more upright at the knees but bending more at the lower back. putting the ball in the middle of my stance for all irons, 1/2 a ball back for wedges and putting a tiny bit more weight on my friend foot than my back so I actually hit down on the ball and don't try to pick it off the ground. Its actually working. I played my best round of the year yesterday.

6 pars, 6 boogies, 4 doubles and 2 triples.

The two triples were due to a ball lost off the tee when I used a driver when really I had no business doing so. Two of the doubles were 5's on par 3's because I landed in the bunker and had to hack my way out (need to paractice sand shots) and the other two doubles were just because of 40-50 foot 3 putts. MIssed a few birdies on some long putts.

Not really happy with the score (92... or hcp 90). I had 33 putt, 15 on the back (good) 18 on the front (bad) but the 18 putts on the back were because of two 3 putts and a few lip outs from long range.

Front 9 I shot 47 and back 9 I shot a 45

I have a lesson now, going to go kiss my coach!

[sharkhark]

I haven't taken lessons in yrs but when I did, afterwords it was the worst summer ever. In sticking to lessons taught my scores went way up. However it slowly improved. Have to break it down to rebuild. Cheating with old swing to keep up with friends was useless.
Also, last yr improved accuracy but lost 1 to 1 1/2 clubs. Handicap went from 17 to 10.4.
I will take the distance loss.

["Richard"]

Just got back from my second lesson. Worked on the same stuff.

Here is what I was doing wrong,

1. I am trying so hard to get my belt buckle pointing opposite the target. So we worked that and now I'm only going back about 30*-40* on the back swing.

2. I still wasn't steep enough on the swing so I'm picking my club up more and instead of coming around my body I'm coming down on the ball.

3. I was straightening my right leg on the back swing and bending my right knee to much which would making me tilt towards the target and making me lower my head almost 9 inches on the back swing and because I was tilting my spin toward the target it didn't really help me hit down on the ball

4. I wasn't getting enough wrist cock on the back swing because I was rotating so much with my waist that I didn't have to cock much to get to parallel but now since I'm rotating only 30* instead of 90* I'm cocking a lot more

5. Wasn't holding the cocked wrist position as long as I should have been and my club was almost passing my hands at impact

6. I wasn't rotating my forearms fast enough to square the club face at impact and that’s why when I I would shank it would be to the right

7. Standing to close to the ball and hitting it on the heel some times

8. On the follow through I'm trying to swing my hips so my belt buckle is pointing at the target but because of my flexibility I'm actually ending up with my belt pointing about 15* left of the target so when I saw it on tape I realized it was way to far over

10. To much bend in the knees so I couldn't get to steep otherwise I would hit the ground which cause me to go more around my back but standing up straighter and bending more at the lower back has allowed me to get the club higher and hit down at the ball (swing plane was to flat before)

11. Was gripping the club way to hard. With left and right hand.

I can actually feel the steeper swing, hitting down on the ball and see the ball just launch into the air and go where I'm aiming now. There isn't as much side spin either now. You can tell on a net because if there was too much side spin the ball would come off the net on an angle. So far so good. Still have 4 lessons left. Decided to do a total of 6 for this year. Don’t' think I will need more than that.


Finally, the last thing I learned which I meantioned earier but will say it again ( think I mentioned it but can't find it anywhere) is the ball position in the stance. I used to put the sand wedge in the middle of my stance and as I went up 1 club I would move the ball 1/2 a ball or more forward. Eventually when I got to the 3 iron it was almost off my left heel. Now I put all my irons and utilities right in the middle of my stance. A 3 wood I put between middle and heel and driver I put at my heel. Its really helped me pop the ball up and hit down on it. My wedges I put about 1/2 a ball back of centre in my stance. Lets hope I can keep it up, this guy is much better than my last guy... and I was worried I wouldn't like him


PS I told him I'm so happy I could kiss you, he said "I highly recommend you don't kiss me because I'll punch you in the mouth.. and I've had 6 hole in ones so Im' pretty accurate"