Eagle Creek vs the Marshes: Let's debate

[jvincent]

Not wanting to thread jack the other thread. I'll reply to the following in it's own thread.

You have to play it more than once to appreciate the design of the golf course. Only until you decide that you're really going to score do you appreciate the subtle contours of the greens and your shot selections. It's Robert Trent Jones man. The man knows what he's doing.

The funny thing is, I've played the Marshes 4 or 5 times now and it just doesn't do it for me. RTJ aside, I just don't find the course very subtle. I think it's "in your face" in terms of the trouble and I don't like the 3/3/3/ configuration of the two nines.

I've played my share of the "Top 100 Courses You Can Play", nine as of this year's Bandon trip, and the Marshes is simply goofy to me.

Think of this as a blondes vs. brunettes vs. redheads kind of thing.

[Andru]

Not wanting to thread jack the other thread. I'll reply to the following in it's own thread.



The funny thing is, I've played the Marshes 4 or 5 times now and it just doesn't do it for me. RTJ aside, I just don't find the course very subtle. I think it's "in your face" in terms of the trouble and I don't like the 3/3/3/ configuration of the two nines.

I've played my share of the "Top 100 Courses You Can Play", nine as of this year's Bandon trip, and the Marshes is simply goofy to me.

Think of this as a blondes vs. brunettes vs. redheads kind of thing.

The 3/3/3 configuration. hey that's not debatable it's you or it's not.

Yes the trouble is in your face I agree. Navigating around the trouble and the course is not in your face. I gues syou have to play with some ppl who can show you some stuff.

Let's face it EC is candy. It looks great, it smells great and it tastes great. But really there's no shotmaking involved.

You drive it anywhere in the fairway, and you launch it at the flag. There are few holes where you can decide if you want to challange the trouble. There's some risk reward. 18 is one of them. There's a million ways to make a birdie on that hole. Great hole!

Now take the Marshes. I'll use hole 17. The long par 3. That hole from the tips plays over 200 yards. If the pin is on the left. you have to hit a high draw in there. If you hit a straight shot you're over the green. If you're short, the ball goes to the collection area. Ec is great but in no way are you asked to show the kind of creativity that the marshes offers.

We can do this thread hole by hole for both courses and I'll show you. You have to think your way around the marshes. If you don't, you have no chance.

[jvincent]

Now take the Marshes. I'll use hole 17. The long par 3. That hole from the tips plays over 200 yards. If the pin is on the left. you have to hit a high draw in there. If you hit a straight shot you're over the green. If you're short, the ball goes to the collection area. Ec is great but in no way are you asked to show the kind of creativity that the marshes offers.

Hole number 8. Pin is back right. From the back tees it's 197 and you have to hit a high soft cut to hold the green any where near the flag. Over cut it and you're in the forest. Short and you're in the bunker.

Next.

[Andru]

Hole number 8. Pin is back right. From the back tees it's 197 and you have to hit a high soft cut to hold the green any where near the flag. Over cut it and you're in the forest. Short and you're in the bunker.

Next.

Sorry to bust your bubble but EC keeps those greens so soft you can hit a 3 iron in there and it holds. Not the same thing. Don't need a fade to hold Number 8. I've done it many times with a 4 iron.

Next.

18 at the marshes 500 yards. Pin is middle left. Only place to hit that pin from 225 is the right side fo rthe fairway. a roping draw. You can use the contour of the green to help get the ball close. You can also. drive down the left side and play to the fat part of the green on the right hoping for a 2 putt. You have options.

[Andru]

Let's start by comparing number one on both courses.

EC's is much more scenic I'll give you that. But there's not much to it. Driver. 8 iron. Just hit the fariway.

Marshes number 1. Just as uninteresting but simple difference is this. You have a choice take on the bunkers with a driver or go left with a 3 wood. While left is safer. you'll end up with the ball below your feet. and about 150-157 yards. Challange the bunkers and win and you have a SW.

If you're sitting int he fariway with about 100 yards. You can do a million things.

Pin on the right. hit a high wedge in. if it's windy. you can hit a low skipping wedge. and use the contours of the fairway to feed the ball to the green. You can hit a bump and run with a 7 iron. You can't coutn on a flat lie. Options. Creativity. Golf.

Nuimber 1 at EC is Driver 8 iron. flat lie. Swing away.....

[B Nation]

Marshes number 1. Just as uninteresting but simple difference is this. You have a choice take on the bunkers with a driver or go left with a 3 wood. While left is safer. you'll end up with the ball below your feet. and about 150-157 yards. Challange the bunkers and win and you have a SW.

Sorry, #1 at Marshes isn't all that complicated nor that great of a golf hole. It's just a hole. And as far as a tee shot/hole to start the day off, give me EC over Marshes any day of the week.

From any tee box you can't really say that Marshes plays significantly tougher than EC. Or that it demands superior shotmaking. EC's greens are soft and a little flatter. But Marshes greens are not THAT fast or tough.

I really do enjoy playing both courses. I just don't buy that Marshes is that much more difficult or it requires a whole lot more shotmaking/thinking. Numbers 2,3,4,9,12,13,17 and 18 at EC are all great holes.

[fundonny]

I feel that EC is the Toronto Maple Leafs and The Marshes is the Ottawa Sens. No matter how great the marshes is, you're going to have more EC fans until the next generation of golfers. In 40 years from now, this wouldn't even be a debate and the Marshes would win hands down. The Marshes is a much better course, no doubt in my mind. But EC has ruled the public golfer's heart for a long, long time.

[jvincent]

Options. Creativity. Golf.

Nuimber 1 at EC is Driver 8 iron. flat lie. Swing away.....

No arguements about #1 at EC, it's a warm-up hole. Just like #1 at the Marshes.

Talking aboout options and creativity, let's compare #2 shall we?

The Marshes. Well there is pretty much only one way to play that hole. Play three shots keeping it left every time. I say this because I'll wager less than 1% of the people on this board have enough skill and/or length to hit it far enough off the tee to take a crack at the green in two. 640 yards of boring, boring, boring. Who cares if it's the longest hole in town.

Eagle Creek. Hit it straight away off the tee and you've got a three shot par five. But, depending on how brave you are you can choose to cut as much or as little off the corner as you want. The corner brings the hazard into play if you hit a hook or draw it too much, or you might end up in the bank (been there), etc. Assuming you cut the corner you can now choose to go for it in two, not the easiest shot in the world since the green is tucked back in the forest and pretty well guarded.

I've played the Marshes enough that if there were some hidden mystique to it I would have found it by now. To me it's like a car with spinner rims and neon. Lot's flash, but not a lot of substance. I know lots of people disagree with me but I'm OK with that.

[Andru]

No arguements about #1 at EC, it's a warm-up hole. Just like #1 at the Marshes.

Talking aboout options and creativity, let's compare #2 shall we?

The Marshes. Well there is pretty much only one way to play that hole. Play three shots keeping it left every time. I say this because I'll wager less than 1% of the people on this board have enough skill and/or length to hit it far enough off the tee to take a crack at the green in two. 640 yards of boring, boring, boring. Who cares if it's the longest hole in town.

Eagle Creek. Hit it straight away off the tee and you've got a three shot par five. But, depending on how brave you are you can choose to cut as much or as little off the corner as you want. The corner brings the hazard into play if you hit a hook or draw it too much, or you might end up in the bank (been there), etc. Assuming you cut the corner you can now choose to go for it in two, not the easiest shot in the world since the green is tucked back in the forest and pretty well guarded.

I've played the Marshes enough that if there were some hidden mystique to it I would have found it by now. To me it's like a car with spinner rims and neon. Lot's flash, but not a lot of substance. I know lots of people disagree with me but I'm OK with that.

I agreee about 2 at EC.

But you're not giving number 2 at the marshes any credit.

There's 2 very different pin positions. left and right. The hole plays completely different.

I agree it's a 3 shot hole. But the options are endless. There's 3 distinct layuop areas. layup short of the bunkers. 185-195 shot in. beside the bunkers. 145-160. or go over for the long hitters. and end up 90-115. Each shot represents a challenge and a reward. What other hole gives you that. And it's not as though you can aim to land short of the bunkers and end up beside them. You have to choose your medicine and take it, there are no bail outs.

It's just like the par 5 #12 on EC. If you go for it in 2. Short doesn't land you in the fairway just off the green. It's in the waste area.

I'm not sure we're on the same page here. If you can't see the optoins and shot making opportunities you're not using your mind here. I'm not arguing. that EC isn't beautiful. it's beautiful and scenic and the golf course is great.

But there's no way EC offers you the same challenges and shot making opportunities as the marshes. EC is target golf. You aim and fire. that's it. You fly the ball to it's location and if you hit it well the ball stays where it lands. It's like throwing darts. The marshes is more like links golf mixed with target golf. you have to take into a account angles and contours. There's no way you can fire the ball at the pin all the time. your ball just won't hold and RTJ managed to do this without creating ridiculous greens like Stonebridge.

[jvincent]

But there's no way EC offers you the same challenges and shot making opportunities as the marshes. EC is target golf. You aim and fire. that's it. You fly the ball to it's location and if you hit it well the ball stays where it lands. It's like throwing darts.

The marshes is more like links golf mixed with target golf.

I've highlighted the last line, because I think it's a lot of the reason I don't like the Marshes. It can't make up it's mind on what it want's to be.

In reality, all golf is target golf. You pick your spot and hit the ball there. On some courses that means you hit it to a point where it's going to roll out, on others it's hit and stick.

When I look at the holes on Marshes it's still very much a point and shoot event for me. Yes, I can choose where I point, but in the end, the options and setup are not that interesting to me. I also don't think that the shot options are no more challenging than EC.

The par 5s are all set up as three shotters, with the exception of #9, the par 4s can all be played easily with iron off the tee, with the exception of #18 and maybe #6 (I'll usually cut a FW wood or 3i left of the stupid tree).

Like I said before, and I'm not trying to be a snob about this, I've played a lot of top ranked courses that really make you think about your shots and where you need to hit them. And when I compare those courses to EC and the Marshes, EC comes out ahead in my book.

Again, just one man's opinion, but I avoid playing the Marshes because I simply don't like it.

And FWIW, of all the top ranked courses I've played, Stonebridge has a lot more in common with them than either the Marshes or EC.

[Andru]

I've highlighted the last line, because I think it's a lot of the reason I don't like the Marshes. It can't make up it's mind on what it want's to be.

In reality, all golf is target golf. You pick your spot and hit the ball there. On some courses that means you hit it to a point where it's going to roll out, on others it's hit and stick.

When I look at the holes on Marshes it's still very much a point and shoot event for me. Yes, I can choose where I point, but in the end, the options and setup are not that interesting to me. I also don't think that the shot options are no more challenging than EC.

The par 5s are all set up as three shotters, with the exception of #9, the par 4s can all be played easily with iron off the tee, with the exception of #18 and maybe #6 (I'll usually cut a FW wood or 3i left of the stupid tree).

Like I said before, and I'm not trying to be a snob about this, I've played a lot of top ranked courses that really make you think about your shots and where you need to hit them. And when I compare those courses to EC and the Marshes, EC comes out ahead in my book.

Again, just one man's opinion, but I avoid playing the Marshes because I simply don't like it.

And FWIW, of all the top ranked courses I've played, Stonebridge has a lot more in common with them than either the Marshes or EC.

Yeesh,. Now I know we're on opposite sides of the fence. Stonebridge is pretty much one of the worst desinged courses I've ever seen. It's like that planned the neighbourhood and stuck a golf course in there.

[Andru]

When I look at the holes on Marshes it's still very much a point and shoot event for me. Yes, I can choose where I point, but in the end, the options and setup are not that interesting to me. I also don't think that the shot options are no more challenging than EC.

The par 5s are all set up as three shotters, with the exception of #9, the par 4s can all be played easily with iron off the tee, with the exception of #18 and maybe #6 (I'll usually cut a FW wood or 3i left of the stupid tree).

'
Wait a minute. 6 is 430 yards. You don't need to shape a shot around the tree. The gold tee is elevated and back 160 yards. You can just fly it. If you're shaping a 3 iron you're likely 210 back from the hole at best. We're not talking about the gold tees here are we? Which is fine. I'm not being a snob of elitist. I play from the blues 6 out of 10 times. I just want to know what we're debating here.

[jvincent]

I usually play it from the Blues.

Since I usually hit the ball pretty low I usually play around that tree and if I'm going around it I go to the left.

Last time I played it I just teed it up high and hit it over the tree. Made birdie from about 160 yards out.

[jvincent]

Yeesh,. Now I know we're on opposite sides of the fence. Stonebridge is pretty much one of the worst desinged courses I've ever seen. It's like that planned the neighbourhood and stuck a golf course in there.

Houses not withstanding, Stonebridge makes you think about where to hit your ball.

All of the really good courses I have played are surprisingly easy off the tee. With the exception of a few holes where the Pacific Ocean is the lateral water hazard, they usually give you a very generous landing area. Where they kill you is you approaches into the greens and the greens themselves.

Being on the wrong side, or in the middle for that matter, of a fairway usually means that you are hitting over a bunker or some other trouble at the green. Often with a mid to long iron.

And for all the whining and complaining people do about the greens at SB, they are simply not that bad. Pinehurst #2 has small, crowned greens with multiple levels and slopes and it's one of the top courses in the world. The greens at SB are actually very similar, albeit easier, and you don't hear people calling #2 a circus.

[Andru]

Houses not withstanding, Stonebridge makes you think about where to hit your ball.

All of the really good courses I have played are surprisingly easy off the tee. With the exception of a few holes where the Pacific Ocean is the lateral water hazard, they usually give you a very generous landing area. Where they kill you is you approaches into the greens and the greens themselves.

Being on the wrong side, or in the middle for that matter, of a fairway usually means that you are hitting over a bunker or some other trouble at the green. Often with a mid to long iron.

And for all the whining and complaining people do about the greens at SB, they are simply not that bad. Pinehurst #2 has small, crowned greens with multiple levels and slopes and it's one of the top courses in the world. The greens at SB are actually very similar, albeit easier, and you don't hear people calling #2 a circus.

I've never player pinehurst #2 but other than you. I've only heard a few people say they think SB is a great course. They built some greens with lot's of bumps and hills to make them difficult. That's about it. I don't believe any thought was put into the type shots that would be flying in.

[jvincent]

I've never player pinehurst #2 but other than you. I've only heard a few people say they think SB is a great course. They built some greens with lot's of bumps and hills to make them difficult. That's about it. I don't believe any thought was put into the type shots that would be flying in.

I don't think I ever said SB was a great course in the same way as some of the others.

It is what it is, a challenging local course that we can play for $50 CDN on the weekends in the summer. I disagree with the statement that the greens and placements weren't thought about.

But we're off topic, this is the Marshes vs Eagle Creek debate.