Two Drivers One Too Many?

[fundonny]

I don't think it's possible to leave the game alone. Technology is just going way too fast and it's a billion dollar industry. I wish we could go back in time though, because current courses are just going to be obsolete in 10 or 20 more years.

The problem with this is eventually they will allow on course tweaking of
adjustable drivers.
I'm sure caddy's are adding or removing lead tape between holes,whats stopping them?
People love change,just look at hockey.
I think we should just leave the game alone,keep it traditional.

[covanant]

I know what you mean,the 460cc rule wont last long.

[LobWedge]

I know what you mean,the 460cc rule wont last long.

I do think that this and other rules like it will stick, if for no other reason, to protect the integrity of the game. There's an excellent interview with Tiger Woods in this month's RCGA magazine where he says that there's an even larger gap between pro and amateur than there was as little as 10 years ago, and that technology is damaging the pro game.

Even though I don't always agree with their methods, I think that the USGA has a point. They run multiple national championships every year, but the only course set up that gets any publicity is the US Open, because it's played by highly skilled professionals who use cutting edge technology to attack those tracks. It always ends up being an extreme response to extreme technology, which is too bad.

I'm making a prediction that if Mickelson goes on to win the Masters, especially by a large margin, by employing two drivers, Hootie will be the first to put in some kind of "one driver" limitation for next year in order to protect the integrity of that tournament. The governing bodies will follow soon after.

[fundonny]

What's to stop him from having a driver for cuts and a '2 wood' for draws? .5 degrees is all he needs, and to get Callaway to put a number 2 on the head.

[covanant]

I hope youre right Lobwedge,
The thing is the public pressure,fans want to see pro's hitting the bombs.
Its exciting to see Tiger drive a green with a 3 wood,thats why courses on the
PGA are moving tee boxes back.
The old timmers like Palmer are concerened about it.

[Chieflongtee]

He has to have 2 drivers as he is using inferior equipment

[el tigre]

I do think that this and other rules like it will stick, if for no other reason, to protect the integrity of the game. There's an excellent interview with Tiger Woods in this month's RCGA magazine where he says that there's an even larger gap between pro and amateur than there was as little as 10 years ago, and that technology is damaging the pro game.

I agree that the gap is widening, but my prediction is that there will eventually be slightly different rules for professionals vs amateurs - either by explicitly having different Rules or giving committees a lot more authority to put restrictions into their Conditions of Competition.

I'm making a prediction that if Mickelson goes on to win the Masters, especially by a large margin, by employing two drivers, Hootie will be the first to put in some kind of "one driver" limitation for next year in order to protect the integrity of that tournament. The governing bodies will follow soon after.

Hootie does not make the Rules of Golf, nor does he seem to have any desire to begin doing so. Judging by the results to date of your poll, I don't think anyone is thinking that having two drivers in the bag is a threat to the integrity of the game.

One part of the game that the governing bodies absolutely refuse to regulate is club selection. Players are free to put any club that is legal into their bag up to maximum number, and they are allowed to play any one of those clubs at any time anywhere on the course. That is a fundamental principle of the Rules of Golf that is not going to change anytime soon.

[jbrace]

Phil did not have any kind of overall "advantage" by having two drivers in the bag. He made a decision that any player could have made to sacrifice his 56* SW to put the extra driver in. So the two cancel each other out. Personally, I can't see how that decision helped his score any, considering his 2 balls in the drink performance on 18 on Saturday. I don't know why he didn't take out one his irons, but anyways... Yes, you could argue that he lead the field in driving accuracy, so obviously having the 2 drivers was the reason for that. But having watched the whole tournament, I don't buy that. Phil was simply swing great and would probably have been #1 in fairways hit with just a 3 wood.

[Nat Williams]

I voted no (obvious from the poll results lol)

IMO you should be able to fit any conforming club into the bag. Regardless of if it is a 2nd driver.

Also as mentioedn previously, it would be easy to avoid any ruling as you can list a 9.5* driver and a 10* 2 wood, in which case the ruling would have to set specific loft seperation requirements (i.e. forcing a 4* gap), and then this could ripple through into wedges and mess up other player's configurations...

I think it would be tough to implement, w/o alot of problems, and even if they could pull it off, I'd rather they didn't.

[Colby]

If the issue is using technology to make the club do what you want with the same swing, e.g. from this example, if Phil uses the same swing with two different drivers to reproduce different results, then why should we allow irons with different lofts? With the same swing, these clubs produce different distances and different ball flight angles.

So in keeping with the initial message, a golfer should have a driver that he needs to be able to work, a fairway wood that he can change his swing on to get different results, a single iron that he, again, has to change his swing to get different results. Maybe give him a sand wedge that has some bounce to help with sand, and heaven forbid that sand wdges have different bounces to help with soft fluffy sand or hard wet sand...

And a putter. So we are down to 5 clubs from 14. Maybe we could make them belly the wedge to get the putter out of their hands and we are down to 4 clubs. That would make a caddy's life easier.

[Kilroy]

down to 4 clubs

& a rangefiner = 5

[el tigre]

Maybe we could make them belly the wedge to get the putter out of their hands and we are down to 4 clubs.

What do you mean I'm not allowed to putt with my fairway wood? That is TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!

[spidey]

What irks me is people who complain about the equipment when in reality people are shooting the same scores today as they were back in the days of persimmon.

....maybe.

They were playing 6000-6500yd courses with persimmon.
Do you really think that Walter Hagen with his bag of clubs could shoot par on a 7400yd Masters course?

Bobby Jones was reputed to be able to hit drives of 290 with wooden shafted clubs, but not 360.

I think that faster greens, longer courses and more hazards has played a part in keeping the scores close.

[Colby]

& a rangefiner = 5

Hey don't get me started on that! Maybe we could count caddyies as an extra club! hahahaha

[Colby]

What do you mean I'm not allowed to putt with my fairway wood? That is TOTALLY UNFAIR!!!

And you can't use it from the greenside rough either! hehehehe

[LobWedge]

If the issue is using technology to make the club do what you want with the same swing, e.g. from this example, if Phil uses the same swing with two different drivers to reproduce different results, then why should we allow irons with different lofts? With the same swing, these clubs produce different distances and different ball flight angles.

So in keeping with the initial message, a golfer should have a driver that he needs to be able to work, a fairway wood that he can change his swing on to get different results, a single iron that he, again, has to change his swing to get different results. Maybe give him a sand wedge that has some bounce to help with sand, and heaven forbid that sand wdges have different bounces to help with soft fluffy sand or hard wet sand...

And a putter. So we are down to 5 clubs from 14. Maybe we could make them belly the wedge to get the putter out of their hands and we are down to 4 clubs. That would make a caddy's life easier.

You're missing the point Dave. Different lofts is not the question here. Clubs obvoiusly have different lofts to produce different distance results. The issue here is lateral direction or "shot shaping". If you want to hit a draw or a fade, you are responsible for making the appropriate physical swing changes to attempt to get the desired result. In Mickelson's case the drivers were doing that work for him. That should be considered cheating. He is effectively breaking rule 4-2a without pulling the "wrench" out of his pocket. With the amount of talent that pros have they should be required to use only one driver. If you choose a heel weighted driver because you like to hit a draw, but you can't hit a fade with it, or vice versa, too bad use your 3-wood, or get a neutral weighted driver.

[fundonny]

I can't believe you wrote Mickelson essentially cheated. I really don't get your argument at all. Mick may have just pioneered something, and everyone will be doing it. I hope he continues kicking butt with this idea.

[LobWedge]

I can't believe you wrote Mickelson essentially cheated. I really don't get your argument at all. Mick may have just pioneered something, and everyone will be doing it. I hope he continues kicking butt with this idea.

Read the post Donny, I did not say Mickelson cheated. I said he effectively skirted rule 4-2a.

Let me use Iron Byron as an example. This machine makes the same swing every time. Only ball position and swing speed can be changed. If I take 3 Callaway FT-3 drivers, one draw bias, one neutral, one fade bias, with identical shafts and lofts. Using the exact same swing I will get 3 different ball flights and 3 different landing spots. It is the equipment that has done the work here, not the machine (or person) swinging it.

[Colby]

You're missing the point Dave. Different lofts is not the question here. Clubs obvoiusly have different lofts to produce different distance results. The issue here is lateral direction or "shot shaping". If you want to hit a draw or a fade, you are responsible for making the appropriate physical swing changes to attempt to get the desired result. In Mickelson's case the drivers were doing that work for him. That should be considered cheating. He is effectively breaking rule 4-2a without pulling the "wrench" out of his pocket. With the amount of talent that pros have they should be required to use only one driver. If you choose a heel weighted driver because you like to hit a draw, but you can't hit a fade with it, or vice versa, too bad use your 3-wood, or get a neutral weighted driver.

I'm not missing the point at all. But let's move away from the Driver.

Let's say Phil was carrying two 56* sand wedges. One has 6 degrees of bounce and the other has 12 degrees, and he uses them for different circumstances, sand, rough, hard lies, etc. These two clubs are using technology to make them have completely different reactions based on the same swing. How about drivers with the exact same head and different shafts, one longer than the other. Where does this stop? Yes technology changes things. Is it taking the skill out of the game? Some skill, yes. But put two drivers in the hands of the average person, and I think Phil would beat them with a 7 iron and sand wedge.

And someone had to think about and create these "new" clubs. How do you think someone felt the first time a sand wedge was used in the sand, someone probably called foul. Or used a gap wedge, or lob wedge. Hybrids were looked on with disdain when they first came out, as is an 11 wood in most people's bags (for some reason).

And in the scheme of things, what does it matter. The rules of golf say 14 clubs. Let's see if Phil can win with 14 drivers...

[spidey]

It is the equipment that has done the work here, not the machine (or person) swinging it.

I'm not sure that you're not reading too much into this.

Most guys on the tour play either a fade or a draw. Not many of them play both. If you want to know where your ball goes, hit the same shape all the time, simple? NO. Even the guys who hit the same shape all the time don't make the ball end up in the fairway/on the green/or whatever target, every time they swing. In fact, the best players in the world are having a hard time hitting fairways 75% of the time. There are no computers or rails on those clubs, Moobs has to swing them himself.

Mickelson had a phenomenal week. It was extraordinary. It's easy to overreact when somebody has that kind of a performance. When Tiger won the first Masters, what happened? Even Jack Nicklaus started calling for limiting the balls, Hootie started lengthening the course... Was it necessary? No. Tiger got better, but not as good as everybody was afraid of... and he had his slumps. It's all about the Indian. Put Phil up against Tiger with his two drivers. Advantage Phil? I doubt it.

[Shivas Irons]

This is basically seemed like an advertisment for Callaway to me. Mickelson annihilates the entire field while the announcers voice over tells us : "He doesn't even need to change his swing, he just let's technology do the work!"
WOW! Everyone - run out and buy a Callaway driver. No wait, buy two!

[LobWedge]

I'm not missing the point at all. But let's move away from the Driver.

Let's say Phil was carrying two 56* sand wedges. One has 6 degrees of bounce and the other has 12 degrees, and he uses them for different circumstances, sand, rough, hard lies, etc. These two clubs are using technology to make them have completely different reactions based on the same swing. How about drivers with the exact same head and different shafts, one longer than the other. Where does this stop? Yes technology changes things. Is it taking the skill out of the game? Some skill, yes. But put two drivers in the hands of the average person, and I think Phil would beat them with a 7 iron and sand wedge.

And someone had to think about and create these "new" clubs. How do you think someone felt the first time a sand wedge was used in the sand, someone probably called foul. Or used a gap wedge, or lob wedge. Hybrids were looked on with disdain when they first came out, as is an 11 wood in most people's bags (for some reason).

And in the scheme of things, what does it matter. The rules of golf say 14 clubs. Let's see if Phil can win with 14 drivers...

But the question IS the driver, or at least the use of two of them in the same round.

The legality of the clubs themselves is not in question here. It's the application of the two drivers to gain an advantage, and the fact that the game suffers because the skill required to execute the shot required is diminished by the use of 2 identically built clubs which produce 2 different ball flights. Again IMO, he is circumventing rule 4-2a. I think the rules makers will eventually see it that way too.

The driver is treated differently because it is designed for essentially one purpose. As I said before, 99.999% of the time the driver is employed in the teeing ground. You are starting from the most pristine condition on any hole, because the ball is off the ground. All the other clubs are used from varying conditions. You can't tee the ball up in the fairway. The only resistance you encounter here is air. Try hitting your diver off the deck and you'll see what I mean.

Mickelson found a loophole IMO. More power to him. I'm just saying that it's a matter of time before that hole gets closed.

This has nothing to do with rule 4-4.

[LobWedge]

...Mickelson annihilates the entire field while the announcers voice over tells us : "He doesn't even need to change his swing, he just let's technology do the work!"

Precisely!!

[Colby]

And that is bad for what reason? Because skill will vanish? That's a pretty flimsy argument. The pros will be pros because they have above normal skill, plain and simple.

[LobWedge]

And that is bad for what reason? Because skill will vanish? That's a pretty flimsy argument. The pros will be pros because they have above normal skill, plain and simple.

That is the only argument. Golf IS a game of skill. Pros have above normal skill because they work harder at it. These guys weren't bred or "designed" specifically to play golf. To allow equipment to reduce the amount skill required to get the ball in the hole diminishes the game.

[Shivas Irons]

What's to stop him from having a driver for cuts and a '2 wood' for draws? .5 degrees is all he needs, and to get Callaway to put a number 2 on the head.

Great point.
As long as the player is using 14 clubs that conform there's not much the USGA can do, short of further standarizing the equipment.

[Colby]

OK,

You keep talking about rule 4-2a. Let's have a look at that rule:

4-2 Playing Characteristics Changed and Foreign Material

a. Playing Characteristics Changed
During a stipulated round, the playing characteristics of a club must not be purposely changed by adjustment or by any other means.
b. Foreign Material
Foreign material must not be applied to the club face for the purpose of influencing the movement of the ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-1 or -2:
Disqualification.


So 4-2a says that if you can't change the characteristics of a club during a stipulated round. That's A SINGLE CLUB. Phil had two clubs, and he didn't change the characteristics of either. So that doesn't break the rule. Is he circumventing it? Probably, but following the rules of golf, he is allowed conforming golf clubs. It doesn't say that they have to consist of 1 driver, a 3 wood, etc. It says 14 clubs. It could be 14 drivers. That would probably be pretty stupid, but it is legal and it could be done.

Follwing your train of thought, how about Notah Begay? He has a putter that he can putt from either side depending on how he feels. Does that equal 2 clubs?

I don't think you are going to see any change come from the USGA/R&A.

[jonf]

But the question IS the driver, or at least the use of two of them in the same round.

The legality of the clubs themselves is not in question here. It's the application of the two drivers to gain an advantage, and the fact that the game suffers because the skill required to execute the shot required is diminished by the use of 2 identically built clubs which produce 2 different ball flights. Again IMO, he is circumventing rule 4-2a. I think the rules makers will eventually see it that way too.

The driver is treated differently because it is designed for essentially one purpose. As I said before, 99.999% of the time the driver is employed in the teeing ground. You are starting from the most pristine condition on any hole, because the ball is off the ground. All the other clubs are used from varying conditions. You can't tee the ball up in the fairway. The only resistance you encounter here is air. Try hitting your diver off the deck and you'll see what I mean.

Mickelson found a loophole IMO. More power to him. I'm just saying that it's a matter of time before that hole gets closed.

This has nothing to do with rule 4-4.

Your limitation to a driver is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY. The argument that you have put forth is that he shouldn't be able to use two drivers, because he is using them to create two distinct shots, without changing the swing. As Colby stated, the same could be said for an individual with two 56* wedges with different bounce. The club is creating the change, not the player. If you want to make a rule stating that a player may have only one club with a certain amount of loft, that might be worth debate, but to state that there should be limitations on only the driver is completely arbitrary and illogical. The same rules must apply to all clubs. To state that an individual can use two wedges that produce different results, but not two drivers, makes no sense at all.

[el tigre]

Pros have above normal skill because they work harder at it. These guys weren't bred or "designed" specifically to play golf.

Actually, I think you're wrong about that.

The assumption you seem to be making is that ANYBODY could be become a PGA golf pro - if they simply devoted enough time, energy and hard work towards this goal. I believe that is pure fantasy.

These guys ARE special. The margin for error in the golf swing is incredibly small, and yet these guys are consistently "perfect" almost all of the time. Plus they need an excellent putting stroke and master the short game - all the time under the pressure of knowing that the could lose the tournament with every single shot they take. Most people couldn't do it no matter what opportunities they had.

You could practice 18 hours a day from age 3 with the best swing coaches in the world - and never get close to that level. If you think anybody can be a PGA pro, then you are not giving them enough credit for the skill they possess.

[fireice]

Back to the poll question, I believe there shouldn't be a rule that you can only use one driver. 14 clubs whichever ones you desire as long as they all conform.