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View Poll Results: Should golf have a one driver rule?

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  1. #61
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    Using the exact same swing I will get 3 different ball flights and 3 different landing spots. It is the equipment that has done the work here, not the machine (or person) swinging it.
    And if I hit a blade, a partial cavity and a full cavity 1" off centre I am going to get three distinctly different results both in terms of distance AND accuracy. "It is the equipment that has done the work here.." So do we ban irons that allow better results from a poorer swing, too? A further extension would be to ban balls (equipment?? I know) that spin too much giving the golfer better control around the greens, from a less than ideal shot. Where do we stop? How much control do we give a committee? Organization?

    If a club conforms to the rules, then let the golfer use 14 of them. How much influence do the adjustably weighted clubs really have on the flight of the ball, anyway? Mouse farts? So who cares? A slicer will still slice with a draw biased club.

    My view is biased(pun intended) as I have played two drivers, one to hit low shots(6*) and one to hit higher shots (8)

  2. #62
    Must be Single dbleber is on a distinguished road dbleber's Avatar
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    8°'s for higher shots! That's priceless! A 6° driver would def be good for lower shots, if I ever want to take out some ground hogs I know who to borrow the the driver from!

  3. #63
    Pitching Wedge EWhelan is on a distinguished road EWhelan's Avatar
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    ARRRRRRRAH, give me 14 clubs and I'll show you wonders the likes you never seen, ARRRRRRRRAH, I don't know what I'm doing, ARRRRRRAH.

  4. #64
    7 Wood dan_670_12 is on a distinguished road dan_670_12's Avatar
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    Does it really matter that much its just his own decision on playing it

  5. #65
    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    Phil now has 954,000 reasons for bagging two drivers

    If technology is making the game sooooooooooooooooooo simple, no skill required then why is it that the average North American male handicap index hovers around 19?

    I mean come on folks, the game is easy with that new fade bias driver, or that draw bias driver, or those honking cavity back irons with sweet spots the size of a loonie. How about that two ball putter? I mean you just line that sucker up behind the ball and every putt you hit is going dead centre. How easy is that?

    I say we toss away those NXT Tours and PRO V's. You should not be able to spin the ball that much. OR carry it that far in the air. They make the game much too easy. Those 460CC drivers with the nano tech shafts? BAN THEM NOW, before we all become so good at the game of golf that there will be 20,000,000 PGA Tour Card Holders lining up for every tournament held in North America

    I don't know about you guys, but driving a 325 yard Par 4 and making eagle from 3'7" still seems like there was some skill involved. Or sticking iron shots from 185 yards, again that requires skill. Or making a 25 foot birdie putt with a 4 foot left hand break, again SKILL REQUIRED.

    The game might seem easy when you watch those guys on TV. Afterall those PGA Tour ads do say "THESE GUYS ARE GOOD"

    Get over it boys, the rules say you can carry 14 clubs. That is exactly what Phil did. Now if Tiger, or Ernie, or anyone else who happens to be your favourite tour player did the same thing and creamed the field, would you be HACKED? Somehow I doubt it.

    As far as Callaway getting lots of free advertising this past weekend, good for them. I looked at new drivers today and did not even pick up a Callaway. So that free advertising from the announcers did not influence me at all.
    My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.

  6. #66
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST
    And if I hit a blade, a partial cavity and a full cavity 1" off centre I am going to get three distinctly different results both in terms of distance AND accuracy. "It is the equipment that has done the work here.." So do we ban irons that allow better results from a poorer swing, too? A further extension would be to ban balls (equipment?? I know) that spin too much giving the golfer better control around the greens, from a less than ideal shot. Where do we stop? How much control do we give a committee? Organization?

    If a club conforms to the rules, then let the golfer use 14 of them. How much influence do the adjustably weighted clubs really have on the flight of the ball, anyway? Mouse farts? So who cares? A slicer will still slice with a draw biased club.

    My view is biased(pun intended) as I have played two drivers, one to hit low shots(6*) and one to hit higher shots (8)
    Of course you will get a different result if you hit the clubs off centre, but you should end up with the same result if you hit all 3 on the sweet spot. The differently biased drivers will not produce the same result if swung the same way and contact is made in the centre of the clubface.

    Once again (for the millionth time), I have no issue with the legality of the clubs as they are built. They obviously conformed to the rules in that respect or he wouldn't have used them. If you say that adjustably weighted clubs don't have that much effect on the flight of the ball, then again I ask, why did Mickelson feel the need to use two drivers? His season accuracy average was 57% heading in to the Bell South. His accuracy for the week of the tournament was 71%. This is a professional golfer who hits hundreds, if not thousands of balls on the range every week, yet he still only hits the fairway less than 6 out of 10 times. Suddenly he decides to put two drivers in the bag, and his percentage jumps by 14 points! That sounds like equipment compensating for a flawed swing to me. I would think that as a proponent of the "single plane" swing that you would be all over this like flies on you know what.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  7. #67
    Hall of Fame jonf is on a distinguished road jonf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    Of course you will get a different result if you hit the clubs off centre, but you should end up with the same result if you hit all 3 on the sweet spot. The differently biased drivers will not produce the same result if swung the same way and contact is made in the centre of the clubface.

    Once again (for the millionth time), I have no issue with the legality of the clubs as they are built. They obviously conformed to the rules in that respect or he wouldn't have used them. If you say that adjustably weighted clubs don't have that much effect on the flight of the ball, then again I ask, why did Mickelson feel the need to use two drivers? His season accuracy average was 57% heading in to the Bell South. His accuracy for the week of the tournament was 71%. This is a professional golfer who hits hundreds, if not thousands of balls on the range every week, yet he still only hits the fairway less than 6 out of 10 times. Suddenly he decides to put two drivers in the bag, and his percentage jumps by 14 points! That sounds like equipment compensating for a flawed swing to me. I would think that as a proponent of the "single plane" swing that you would be all over this like flies on you know what.
    Seems like a good decision to me. You could make this argument for absolutely every equipment improvement. Every time someone changes equipment and their score improves, they must be manipulating the purity of the game. New ball = more spin and greater distance....equipment compensating for play. New, more forgiving irons = more distance, greater accuracy...equipment compensating for play. New Hybrid - greater consistency...equipment compensating for play. That is what equipment does. That's why guys on this site go through clubs like a fat kid goes through cupcakes. I have no problem with you questioning the role of equipment in the game - maybe we should limit the use of game improvement clubs - but singling out the driver alone doesn't make sense.

  8. #68
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    His season accuracy average was 57% heading in to the Bell South. His accuracy for the week of the tournament was 71%. This is a professional golfer who hits hundreds, if not thousands of balls on the range every week, yet he still only hits the fairway less than 6 out of 10 times. Suddenly he decides to put two drivers in the bag, and his percentage jumps by 14 points! That sounds like equipment compensating for a flawed swing to me.
    He won the tournament by 13 strokes because he was first in GIR's, 3rd in putting, and 5th in driving distance. Does that sound like a flawed swing to you???

    The guy was totally ON his game. Whatever equipment Mickelson had in his bag last week was TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to the final result - nobody was going to beat him. He could have had Callaway's original S2H2 driver from 10 years ago and his fairway % would have skyrocketed!

    You have taken one innocuous little fact - that Phil happened to have two drivers in his bag last week - in order to "prove" your pre-conceived notion that technology is making tournament winners out of unskilled hacks with "flawed" swings.

    In doing so, you have totally discounted ALL the other rather-overwhelming evidence that Phil Mickelson was by far the most skilled golfer in the field last week in virtually every aspect of the game, and he deserves ALL of the credit for his performance.
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  9. #69
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by el tigre
    He won the tournament by 13 strokes because he was first in GIR's, 3rd in putting, and 5th in driving distance. Does that sound like a flawed swing to you???

    The guy was totally ON his game. Whatever equipment Mickelson had in his bag last week was TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to the final result - nobody was going to beat him. He could have had Callaway's original S2H2 driver from 10 years ago and his fairway % would have skyrocketed!

    You have taken one innocuous little fact - that Phil happened to have two drivers in his bag last week - in order to "prove" your pre-conceived notion that technology is making tournament winners out of unskilled hacks with "flawed" swings.

    In doing so, you have totally discounted ALL the other rather-overwhelming evidence that Phil Mickelson was by far the most skilled golfer in the field last week in virtually every aspect of the game, and he deserves ALL of the credit for his performance.
    Once again you have taken things out of context here. Mickelson just happened to be the golfer of record in this discussion. The question is about the legality of two drivers, and whether it created an unfair advantage. The question would have been posted no matter which player it was. How many fairways would he have hit with just one driver? How many fewer greens would he have hit if he had to hit longer irons because he had to lay back with a 3-wood instead of "driver #2"?

    I have discounted nothing. I have said nothing regarding his performance fairway to green, you have. This is their job. They practice all the time. Why shouldn't they be able to hit the fairway the vast majority of the time with only one driving club? He must have had either some reservations about his driver swing, or in the technology itself to have employed two drivers.

    If he was playing a dog leg right, why didn't he hit the "fade driver", or vice versa? Because he was taking advantage of the ball flight afforded him by the equipment to help him execute those draw or fade shots. That is what I've been talking about.

    If it makes you feel better about youself to disregard that and attack me as some kind of "Mickelson hater", which you'd see is far from the truth if you had bothered to search my older posts on him, then go nuts. I'm not going to waste my time responding to your flaming anymore.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  10. #70
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    Once again you have taken things out of context here. Mickelson just happened to be the golfer of record in this discussion. The question is about the legality of two drivers, and whether it created an unfair advantage. The question would have been posted no matter which player it was. How many fairways would he have hit with just one driver? How many fewer greens would he have hit if he had to hit longer irons because he had to lay back with a 3-wood instead of "driver #2"?

    I have discounted nothing. I have said nothing regarding his performance fairway to green, you have. This is their job. They practice all the time. Why shouldn't they be able to hit the fairway the vast majority of the time with only one driving club? He must have had either some reservations about his driver swing, or in the technology itself to have employed two drivers.

    If he was playing a dog leg right, why didn't he hit the "fade driver", or vice versa? Because he was taking advantage of the ball flight afforded him by the equipment to help him execute those draw or fade shots. That is what I've been talking about.

    If it makes you feel better about youself to disregard that and attack me as some kind of "Mickelson hater", which you'd see is far from the truth if you had bothered to search my older posts on him, then go nuts. I'm not going to waste my time responding to your flaming anymore.
    Lob Wedge, I'm not trying to flame anyone as a "Mickelson hater". You are the one who started this discussion about his performance. You are the one who is using him performance as an example on why two drivers gave him an "unfair" advantage over the rest of the field.

    And once again, there is no such thing as a "driving club". You have 14 sticks and you can use any one of them as a "driving club" if you wish. It is totally YOUR choice.

    You keep trying to bring the discussion back to "technology" when that is not the real issue here. The question of whether technology is making the game too easy is not what your proposal addresses. What you are really trying to do is "mandate" which clubs players are allowed to put in their bag. Sorry, but I don't think anybody else should be making those decisions for me.
    [COLOR=green][B]Golf is a game invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.[/B][/COLOR]

  11. #71
    Shotmaker spidey is on a distinguished road spidey's Avatar
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    quoth LobWedge...

    How many fairways would he have hit with just one driver?
    I can't believe you're going to base your argument on statistics. Statistics can lie. Especially statistics in a single tournament.

    Let's say, for sake of arguement, that Phil hit each one half the time. It's probably more likely that he hit his favourite shape more often. Either way, pick one.

    Say his normal shot is the draw (probably). Say he hits it half the time because half the fairways set up for a draw, and he has a driver set up for him to hit his draw the way he wants to. (He probably hit more of his favourite shot). According to his ytd and tourney stats, he hit it 14 points better at Bellsouth. So even without counting the second driver, he was better by (14 fairways * 4 rounds *.14 = 7.8) 7 fairways. How does the second driver produce that?

    How do you explain that? If you figure it's purely the equipment, then his normal accuracy should determine how many fairways he hits with both drivers.

    I think it's all mental. I think he has convinced himself that he has an advantage that doesn't exist. I think that as long as he believes that it's the equipment, he's taking the pressure off himself to perform, and he is able to let it come out. It's not the equipment. It's all in Phil's head. And I think that the second driver will fall out of Phil's bag as soon as his head clears.
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  12. #72
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by el tigre
    Lob Wedge, I'm not trying to flame anyone as a "Mickelson hater". You are the one who started this discussion about his performance. You are the one who is using him performance as an example on why two drivers gave him an "unfair" advantage over the rest of the field.

    And once again, there is no such thing as a "driving club". You have 14 sticks and you can use any one of them as a "driving club" if you wish. It is totally YOUR choice.

    You keep trying to bring the discussion back to "technology" when that is not the real issue here. The question of whether technology is making the game too easy is not what your proposal addresses. What you are really trying to do is "mandate" which clubs players are allowed to put in their bag. Sorry, but I don't think anybody else should be making those decisions for me.
    Tell me how this, my post that started this thread, is not related to technology.

    "I'm not attempting to discount the value of Phil Mickelson's performance this week. He's had one of the finest performances that I have ever seen. My question is, with the amount of coaching and training resources available, and with the technology and laser precise equipment fitting available to tour players today, does playing with two drivers that produce two very distinct ball flights create an unfair advantage?

    With nano technology shafts, maximum CT/MOI heads, and softer, lower spin balls, should the PGA Tour, or even the global ruling bodies, institute a one driver rule for competition?

    I'm on the fence with this one, mainly because I still believe in the "archer" not the "arrow" scenario. But year after year the "arrow" gains ground."
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  13. #73
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    I would think that as a proponent of the "single plane" swing that you would be all over this like flies on you know what.
    I don't see the connection between the issue (2 drivers) and my being a proponent of a single plane swing. I am assuming you mean single AXIS instead of plane, as virtually no one swings on a single plane. Even the "single plane" swing (Jim Hardy) is not single plane, as every swing has a plane shift.

    One of the most significant parameters in club making is SET MAKEUP. The golfer simply decides what 14 clubs will be advantageous for his particular game. Phil chose 2 drivers, I play 2 "A" wedges, you may choose a long putter for short putts and a short putter for long putts. Based on your driver principle, would you ban the use of 2 putters as well, because it might help the golfer? If a golfer slices the ball he may chose to play offset clubs or a whippier shaft or a more closed face on 1 or more clubs to help compensate for the slice. Lightweight graphite shafts have helped to increase distance and control. Do we go back to 140 g steel shafts?

    These technological innovations have have helped, IMO, a lot less than people think. Again, more mouse farts. If you want to find out how much, just gearing back the golf ball to an initial velocity of 220 ft/sec, will put things in perspective, or changing the rules on dimple design. The ball is what has made the game a lot easier for some and that is where change may be needed, not the equipment. The other huge factor in improved PGA Tour scoring is the 12 on the stimp, pimple free greens on which they putt. Heck, after playing poa annua greens for 40 years, even I became a better putter when I moved to a bent grass course, with faster smoother greens.

    It's the damn ball. Leave club selection alone.

  14. #74
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    Tell me how this, my post that started this thread, is not related to technology.
    There is fundamentally NO difference in principle behind having a rule that states "you can have only one driver in your bag for a round" and a rule that states "you can have only one driver, 3 fairway woods, 8 irons, 3 wedges and one putter in your bag for a round".

    Why should the USGA decide what combination of legal clubs go into my golf bag? Why should they mandate that long irons are better than fairway woods (or vice versa) or that 3 wedges are better than 4? Who gets to decide that there is more skill involved in hitting an iron vs a fairway wood vs a driver? Some people can hit amazing shots with a driver but can't hit a long iron to save their life - others rarely pull a driver out of their bag but can throw darts with a 3-iron. Why should the rules dictate that one player should be favoured over the other?

    The "technology" question should be confined to what constitutes a legal golf club. How you use them, and which ones you choose to employ, should be totally at the discretion of the player.

    One of the great things about this game is the creativity that the players can bring to it. It doesn't matter which clubs you use to get the ball into the hole - as long as you do so in the least amount of strokes. If you start mandating the makeup of the golf bag, you stifle some of that creativity.
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  15. #75
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST
    I don't see the connection between the issue (2 drivers) and my being a proponent of a single plane swing. I am assuming you mean single AXIS instead of plane, as virtually no one swings on a single plane. Even the "single plane" swing (Jim Hardy) is not single plane, as every swing has a plane shift.

    One of the most significant parameters in club making is SET MAKEUP. The golfer simply decides what 14 clubs will be advantageous for his particular game. Phil chose 2 drivers, I play 2 "A" wedges, you may choose a long putter for short putts and a short putter for long putts. Based on your driver principle, would you ban the use of 2 putters as well, because it might help the golfer? If a golfer slices the ball he may chose to play offset clubs or a whippier shaft or a more closed face on 1 or more clubs to help compensate for the slice. Lightweight graphite shafts have helped to increase distance and control. Do we go back to 140 g steel shafts?

    These technological innovations have have helped, IMO, a lot less than people think. Again, more mouse farts. If you want to find out how much, just gearing back the golf ball to an initial velocity of 220 ft/sec, will put things in perspective, or changing the rules on dimple design. The ball is what has made the game a lot easier for some and that is where change may be needed, not the equipment. The other huge factor in improved PGA Tour scoring is the 12 on the stimp, pimple free greens on which they putt. Heck, after playing poa annua greens for 40 years, even I became a better putter when I moved to a bent grass course, with faster smoother greens.

    It's the damn ball. Leave club selection alone.
    Don't get me started on the ball...

    My main concern with driving clubs to begin with is that thet are designed for a single purpose and should be treated differently, as putters are. The golfer already has the advantage of starting from the tee with the ball off the ground. That should be the only advantage. They should not be given the additional advantage of being able to choose which one gives you a fade or draw ballflight during the same round. Again, IMO, it's just a way to get around rule 4-2a. If you sole a driver behind a ball that is on the ground, the CG of the club will be above the equator of the ball. By virtue of their low CGs and lofts, even though they can be hit from a tee, all the other clubs in the bag are designed to hit the ball from ground based lies.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  16. #76
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobWedge
    Don't get me started on the ball...

    My main concern with driving clubs to begin with is that thet are designed for a single purpose and should be treated differently, as putters are. The golfer already has the advantage of starting from the tee with the ball off the ground. That should be the only advantage. They should not be given the additional advantage of being able to choose which one gives you a fade or draw ballflight during the same round. Again, IMO, it's just a way to get around rule 4-2a. If you sole a driver behind a ball that is on the ground, the CG of the club will be above the equator of the ball. By virtue of their low CGs and lofts, even though they can be hit from a tee, all the other clubs in the bag are designed to hit the ball from ground based lies.
    Are you limited to one putter in your bag? Could I not have a long handled putter for long putts, maybe with a heavier head, and a short putter for close putts?

    Again, 4-2a deals with changing the characteristics of a club during a round. Not pulling out a completely different club to accomplish what you want.
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  17. #77
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    AAAAARRRRRRGGGGH! This is what I've been talking about! "By replacing his sand wedge with a 2nd FT3 driver, Phil could shape his shots more easily."


    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  18. #78
    Shotmaker spidey is on a distinguished road spidey's Avatar
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    Lob sez....

    AAAAARRRRRRGGGGH! This is what I've been talking about! "By replacing his sand wedge with a 2nd FT3 driver, Phil could shape his shots more easily."
    BS. They just want you to come in and buy another driver.

    ...then later they can tell you you need that sand wedge back, so you should replace the second driver with their new sand wedge....
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  19. #79
    Way Beyond Help Colby is on a distinguished road Colby's Avatar
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    Lobwedge,

    There's nothing wrong with doing this as it is allowed within the rules! It's not like Tiger getting the gallery to move a huge rock! He's using 14 legal clubs. Just because one shapes a shot left to right rather than having a steeper ball flight, like a more lofted wedge to get a higher flop shot with the same swing.

    It's allowed! Can we move on? (this is post #79 and the last one I am writing on the subject, which may make some people happy...)
    It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.
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  20. #80
    Hall of Fame jonf is on a distinguished road jonf's Avatar
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    Don't you think they had the exact same story the first time someone won using a two piece ball vs a wound, or a metal wood, or a graphite shafted club, etc. Equipment has always been a factor in golf, and I am still flabergasted...yes, flabergasted....by your insistance that this particular use of technology - and only this use of technology - is the bane of golf.

  21. #81
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colby
    Lobwedge,

    There's nothing wrong with doing this as it is allowed within the rules! It's not like Tiger getting the gallery to move a huge rock! He's using 14 legal clubs. Just because one shapes a shot left to right rather than having a steeper ball flight, like a more lofted wedge to get a higher flop shot with the same swing.

    It's allowed! Can we move on? (this is post #79 and the last one I am writing on the subject, which may make some people happy...)
    Didn't say it wasn't legal. I said it warrant a rule change to make it illegal, as IMO it constiutes an unfair advantage.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  22. #82
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 LobWedge is on a distinguished road LobWedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonf
    Don't you think they had the exact same story the first time someone won using a two piece ball vs a wound, or a metal wood, or a graphite shafted club, etc. Equipment has always been a factor in golf, and I am still flabergasted...yes, flabergasted....by your insistance that this particular use of technology - and only this use of technology - is the bane of golf.
    I'm sorry if you can't grasp the basic idea of my argument. Oh well...

    It's interesting that you mentioned the ball though. You should read Frank Hannigan's column at golfobserver.com on the subject. The USGA is planning a 25% rollback on ball distance within the next couple of years.
    When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.

  23. #83
    Golf Guru Nat Williams is on a distinguished road Nat Williams's Avatar
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    side note:

    In that picture, Phil is holding the UGLIEST trophy I have ever seen.
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  24. #84
    bbad
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    Smile

    Okay...I have one stupid thing to add to this.

    Question: If I hit a draw with my driver with no gloves on and a fade with gloves on, am I doing the same thing that Phil did by chosing two drivers with different weight settings?

    Just a thought, though I would dare to hazzard that this is the real issue that Lob has? Can you "influence" the flight of your ball without making modifications to your swing. Clearly I am allowed to wear 5 sets of gloves (if I wanted to). The choice is mine and mine alone. If somebody else sees that it works for me, they can do it them selves and them level the playing field again, but that is THEIR choice...nobody elses.

    Just my two cents

  25. #85
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbad
    Can you "influence" the flight of your ball without making modifications to your swing.
    Open or close the face.

    Was adjusting the lofts of some clubs yesterday and a thought occurred to me. I am going to put two long irons in my bag. The 3 iron I am going to bend 4* upright so with a normal swing the ball will hook, and to the 2 iron I am going to bend 4* flat so that with a normal swing the ball will fade.

    Will someone suggest that the USGA/R&A ban lie adjustments, too?

    It's still the damn ball!!

  26. #86
    "Richard"
    Guest
    Someone mentioned tiger asking the fans to move big rock, I saw this on TV but never understood what was going on as I wasn't a golfer back then, now its kinda fuzzy. What happened and why was it such a big deal?

  27. #87
    Golf Guru Nat Williams is on a distinguished road Nat Williams's Avatar
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    Someone mentioned tiger asking the fans to move big rock, I saw this on TV but never understood what was going on as I wasn't a golfer back then, now its kinda fuzzy. What happened and why was it such a big deal?
    It was considered an abuse of the rules ... whether or not it was really 'movable' was questioned as Tiger could not move it himself, and required several people to help move it.

    I believe the rule has since been ammended, but I'm sure someone can confirm or deny that for us.
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  28. #88
    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWILLIAMS
    It was considered an abuse of the rules ... whether or not it was really 'movable' was questioned as Tiger could not move it himself, and required several people to help move it.

    I believe the rule has since been ammended, but I'm sure someone can confirm or deny that for us.
    It was BS. You can bet your last dollar that if Monty's ball, or just about anyone else for that matter had come to rest behind that BOULDER there would not have been any fans lending a hand to move it. Not sure if the rule was ammended but it should have been.
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  29. #89
    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST
    Open or close the face.

    Was adjusting the lofts of some clubs yesterday and a thought occurred to me. I am going to put two long irons in my bag. The 3 iron I am going to bend 4* upright so with a normal swing the ball will hook, and to the 2 iron I am going to bend 4* flat so that with a normal swing the ball will fade.

    Will someone suggest that the USGA/R&A ban lie adjustments, too?

    It's still the damn ball!!
    Hey BC that is a great idea, I like your style! a Hooker & a Fader with the same swing
    I read, or was told that some pros bend their long irons up so they can draw the ball. Short irons are left standard so they can fade. Now of course that all depends on the lie they actually need. But the principle makes sense.
    My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.

  30. #90
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NWILLIAMS
    I believe the rule has since been ammended, but I'm sure someone can confirm or deny that for us.
    Actually, I don't think the rules have been changed (my emphasis in bold):

    23-1/2 Large Stone Removable Only with Much Effort


    Q. A player’s ball lies in the rough directly behind a loose stone the size of a watermelon. The stone can be removed only with much effort. Is it a loose impediment which may be removed?

    A. Yes. Stones of any size (not solidly embedded) are loose impediments and may be removed, provided removal does not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7).

    23-1/3 Assistance in Removing Large Loose Impediment


    Q. May spectators, caddies, fellow-competitors, etc., assist a player in removing a large loose impediment?

    A. Yes.


    The question seems to revolve around whether or not the stone is "solidly embedded":

    23/2 Meaning of “Solidly Embedded” in Definition of “Loose Impediments”


    Q. The Definition of “Loose Impediments” states that a stone is a loose impediment if it is not “solidly embedded.” When is a stone solidly embedded?

    A. If a stone is partially embedded and may be picked up with ease, it is a loose impediment. When there is doubt as to whether a stone is solidly embedded or not, it should not be removed.
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