View Poll Results: Difference between HIGH bend point shafts and LOW ones, in inches.
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2"
14 77.78% -
5"
2 11.11% -
8"
1 5.56% -
11"
0 0% -
14"
1 5.56% -
More than 14"
0 0%
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Thread: Bend Point Poll
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03-19-2006 08:34 AM #1
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Bend Point Poll
What is the normal difference in inches between shafts that have a HIGH kick point and ones that have a LOW kick point?
Last edited by BC MIST; 03-19-2006 at 06:51 PM.
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03-19-2006 01:38 PM #2
C'mon BC, can you ask a tougher question?
BTW - I voted.When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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03-19-2006 06:53 PM #3
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Originally Posted by LobWedge
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03-19-2006 08:26 PM #4
How long till you let the cat out of the bag?
When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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03-20-2006 08:59 AM #5
This is a great way to inform people. My natural curiosity caused me to instantly find out the answer.
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03-21-2006 07:51 AM #6
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The correct answer is about 2". Kick point is such a minor factor in club fitting that its affect on the ball flight would be imperceptible by most. And yet, when you listen to the sales folks, they will tell you that you need a low kick shaft to get the ball up and vica versa.
If you hear this ask them what the difference is, in inches, between a low and a high and if the answer is far from the correct one, you then know just how much knowledge and credibility the sales person has.
My next question will be more challenging, I hope.
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03-21-2006 08:00 AM #7
Ya.. I always like these skill testing questions.... especially the 5 sec snappers
Originally Posted by little britSome people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing, ... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs...
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03-21-2006 08:23 AM #8
I'm sure you have lots of data to back this up but from personal experience the difference in a high kick point and a low kick put in terms of feel and trajectory is huge! I had the same head with lots of different shafts and when I had a high kick point speeder my launch angle was 6-7° and felt like a lead pipe. When I put the Accra with a low kick point my launch went to around 13° and feels like butter. That's all the data I need!
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03-21-2006 08:33 AM #9Originally Posted by dbleberLive as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
Mahatma Gandhi
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03-21-2006 09:26 AM #10Originally Posted by ChieflongteeWhen applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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03-21-2006 10:30 AM #11Originally Posted by Chieflongtee[FONT=System][COLOR=DarkRed]
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03-21-2006 10:37 AM #12Originally Posted by stone_bone
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03-21-2006 05:48 PM #13
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Originally Posted by dbleber
Example: Fujikura Speeder 757 S flex or Accra T-60 S
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03-21-2006 05:58 PM #14
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Originally Posted by Chieflongtee
Shafts that have stiff tip sections, regardless of the torque, feel boardy even if the sweet spot is hit dead on. Reasonably flexible shafts transmits the good feeling that we all love.
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03-21-2006 06:06 PM #15
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Originally Posted by stone_bone
You are correct when you indicate that the softer tip section has an influnce on FEEL and it also has an influence on trajectory.
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03-21-2006 07:48 PM #16Originally Posted by BC MIST
I know the butt flex and tip flex of the shaft make a big difference.
How do you calculate the location of the "KP" on a shaft?[FONT=System][COLOR=DarkRed]
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03-21-2006 08:04 PM #17
Here is the info I know of:
Accra T60 M4:
Weight: 63 grams Tip flex: 27 MOP Flex: 7.6 Tourque: 2.9 CPM: 271 Tip OD:.335
Parallel Tip Length:4.0 Butt Diameter: .608
Speeder:
flex: R, S, X flex point: Mid/High launch: Low
weight 76g, 78g, 81g tip stiffness: Medium/Stiff spin: Low
torque: 3.0° butt stiffness: Soft/Medium tempo: Fast
max length: 45.75'' butt od: Taper ball speed High
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03-22-2006 08:33 AM #18
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Originally Posted by dbleber
To get a shaft profile frequency or deflection measurements are taken at 41, 36, 31, 26, 21, 16 and 11 inches from the butt end of the shaft. The measurements at 21, 16 and 11 are considered tip measurements, 41,36 and 31 the buitt measurements and 36, 31 and 26 the mid section. However, as you are aware, some companies, if they do any kind of measuring in the first place, may do this a little differently.
I compared for you the Fujikura Speeder 757 R flex and the Accra T-60 R flex. The frequencies to follow start at 41":
Fujikura/Accra
180/168
210/194
242/222
290/267
365/334
508/461
855/794
You can see that the speeder is significantly stiffer along the entire length of the shaft than the Accra. The Speeder weighs 76 g and the Accra 68 g. The butt frequency of the Accra with a driver head on and 45" of length is 238 cpms. I don't have a number for the Fujikura, however, I do have numbers of the "S" version of each and the Fujikura is 17 cpm's stiffer at the butt than the Accra. The graph of the "R" indicates that the differences are even greater than that of the "S". Additionally, the balance point of the Fujikura is 21.5" from the butt while the Accra's is 22.44".
The differences may seem small but in the scheme of things they are quite significant. The Fujikura is very stiff, heavier and with a higher balance point, and these three factors cause the ball to fly a lot lower, not the so called "kick" point.
You like your Accra, obviously. If you are interested I can give you the names of some other shafts that match up with the T-60, just for comparative purposes.Last edited by BC MIST; 03-22-2006 at 08:55 AM.
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03-22-2006 08:42 AM #19
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I'd be interested in knowing which shafts match up to the Accra BC. Please list them.
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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03-22-2006 08:53 AM #20
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Originally Posted by stone_bone
The Dynacraft folks found the MAXIMUM difference in "kick" point in graphite shafts to be 1.7" and in steel shafts .64" again confirmation of the absolute insignificant affect this has on trajectory.
What makes shafts perform differently are other factors mainly how stiff they are along the entire length of the shaft. Two graphite shafts can be made with the same stiffness in the butt section but one can be made to be much softer in the tip section, ie., from roughly 10" to 25" from the actual tip. As youR golf shaft is bent forward at impact, the softer tip section adds loft to the head and a higher trajectory occurs. Examples of this are the Wishon Interflexx High and Mid/Low launch shafts which I use.
Another example is the Accuflex Evolution which has a softer butt section so you will get a feeling of flexibility or loading as you start down, but this shaft has a very stiff tip section so the shaft will not be bent forward at impact as much, so the loft of the head won't be increased and the shot flies a lot lower. The difference in tip stiffness causes the trajectory difference, not the "kick point." shafts don't kick, they only bend, and bend more in some places than others. Does this help?
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03-22-2006 09:02 AM #21
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Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
-Fujikura Speeder 553 R
-Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 A
-Graffaloy Prolite Max R
-UST V-250 R
-Aldila NVS 55 S
-Aldila NVS 75 S
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03-22-2006 09:10 AM #22
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Thanks BC, do you happen to know which shafts match up to the Accra T-60 S?
"A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08
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03-22-2006 01:45 PM #23Originally Posted by BC MIST
In the poll you asked the difference in bend point not "kick" point but then asked in the first post the difference in "kick" point. So that confused me a bit. So is the difference in high bend and low bend point 2" as well?[FONT=System][COLOR=DarkRed]
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03-22-2006 04:52 PM #24
In a way this is nothing new. More sophisticated as clubmakers zone profile with Frequency meters and Nf4's and Auditors and Flexmasters but for years they used a
deflection board. A tip weight was attached to the shaft and although both shafts ended up as stiff or regular on the board you could clearly see the difference as to where they flexed.
See the deflection board and the Apache
http://www.mccshafts.com/MultiMatch.htmlLast edited by Chieflongtee; 06-07-2006 at 05:25 PM.
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.
Mahatma Gandhi
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03-22-2006 05:16 PM #25
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Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
UST Proforce V-2 60 S 67 g
UST Proforce XL S 63 g
Harrison Striper S 68 g
Graffaloy NT Prototype65G R 61 g
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03-23-2006 08:13 AM #26
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Originally Posted by BC MIST
I have a True Temper dynamic gold S300 in my driver and I want to change to graphite. Are there any graphite shafts that match up with it? Or am I talking about "apple and oranges"?
NB - I have been toying with the idea of Accuflex Assassin II (X-stiff).
Any help would be appreciated.Back at it.
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03-23-2006 05:40 PM #27Originally Posted by BC MIST
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03-23-2006 05:59 PM #28
[QUOTE=BC MIST] The butt frequency of the Accra with a driver head on and 45" of length is 238 cpms. I don't have a number for the Fujikura, however, I do have numbers of the "S" version of each and the Fujikura is 17 cpm's stiffer at the butt than the Accra. The graph of QUOTE]
The CPM of an Accra T60 M3 is 256. That must be "raw"? Once intalled with a head the weight of the head must weakin it a bit, no?
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03-23-2006 05:59 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Started2k3
Sk Fiber Lite Revolution R
SK Fiber Pure Energy R
SK Tour Trac 80 R
UST Harmon CB 65 R
UST Proforce XL R
Harrison Striper Pro R
Aldila Tour Gold 65 R
My concern is that if you feel that you need an "X", then the S300 was a poor fit, ie., too soft, and those listed above would be too soft as well. Don't go by all the "R's" but by the fact that the S300 was/is NOT stiff.
Unfortunatley, I have no numbers on the Assassin II.
An indication of your swing speed, tempo, transition speed and how late you hold the wrist cock angle, may help get a better shaft suggestion.
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03-23-2006 06:07 PM #30
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Originally Posted by dbleber
You can see why we NEED STANDARDS.
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