Bend Point Poll

[BC MIST]

What is the normal difference in inches between shafts that have a HIGH kick point and ones that have a LOW kick point?

[LobWedge]

C'mon BC, can you ask a tougher question?

BTW - I voted.

[BC MIST]

C'mon BC, can you ask a tougher question?

BTW - I voted.

Just thought I would start with an easy one.

[LobWedge]

How long till you let the cat out of the bag?

[little brit]

This is a great way to inform people. My natural curiosity caused me to instantly find out the answer.

[BC MIST]

The correct answer is about 2". Kick point is such a minor factor in club fitting that its affect on the ball flight would be imperceptible by most. And yet, when you listen to the sales folks, they will tell you that you need a low kick shaft to get the ball up and vica versa.

If you hear this ask them what the difference is, in inches, between a low and a high and if the answer is far from the correct one, you then know just how much knowledge and credibility the sales person has.

My next question will be more challenging, I hope.

[The Saint]

Ya.. I always like these skill testing questions.... especially the 5 sec snappers

This is a great way to inform people. My natural curiosity caused me to instantly find out the answer.

[dbleber]

I'm sure you have lots of data to back this up but from personal experience the difference in a high kick point and a low kick put in terms of feel and trajectory is huge! I had the same head with lots of different shafts and when I had a high kick point speeder my launch angle was 6-7° and felt like a lead pipe. When I put the Accra with a low kick point my launch went to around 13° and feels like butter. That's all the data I need!

[Chieflongtee]

I'm sure you have lots of data to back this up but from personal experience the difference in a high kick point and a low kick put in terms of feel and trajectory is huge! I had the same head with lots of different shafts and when I had a high kick point speeder my launch angle was 6-7° and felt like a lead pipe. When I put the Accra with a low kick point my launch went to around 13° and feels like butter. That's all the data I need!

Not to forget is shaft torque Denny. If you hit a shaft with a very low torque i.e the club is going to feel boardy.

[LobWedge]

Not to forget is shaft torque Denny. If you hit a shaft with a very low torque i.e the club is going to feel boardy.

Not only that, one company's stiff is another one's regular. Denny's higher ball flight may just be the result of attaining true loft or full shaft release at the point of impact, whereas the lower ball flight may be a result of the shaft still unloading at the moment of truth.

[stone_bone]

Not to forget is shaft torque Denny. If you hit a shaft with a very low torque i.e the club is going to feel boardy.

From experience I have found that tip stiffness had alot to do with the feel as opposed to torque. I played a 757 speeder and switched to a Accra T70 both have similar torque values less than 3* not sure about bend point i know the Speeder is mid/high and the Accra might be mid/low but with the Accra I could feel the softer tip when swinging. It was much more lively and gave alot more feedback.

[dbleber]

From experience I have found that tip stiffness had alot to do with the feel as opposed to torque. I played a 757 speeder and switched to a Accra T70 both have similar torque values less than 3* not sure about bend point i know the Speeder is mid/high and the Accra might be mid/low but with the Accra I could feel the softer tip when swinging. It was much more lively and gave alot more feedback.

Exactly! I went from a Speeder to the T60 and the differnce in tourque is minimal, the CPM was the same but the High bend point in the Speeder compared to the Low bend point of the Accra makes a huge diffence in trajectory and feel.

[BC MIST]

I'm sure you have lots of data to back this up but from personal experience the difference in a high kick point and a low kick put in terms of feel and trajectory is huge! I had the same head with lots of different shafts and when I had a high kick point speeder my launch angle was 6-7° and felt like a lead pipe. When I put the Accra with a low kick point my launch went to around 13° and feels like butter. That's all the data I need!

No, it is not. Basing the difference in trajectory solely on what someone says the "kick" point is (it does not have one, BTW) is being a little shortsighted as there are other factors that have an influence on the height of the ball. If you would provide the specific information about those two shafts, I may be able to show you why.

Example: Fujikura Speeder 757 S flex or Accra T-60 S

[BC MIST]

Not to forget is shaft torque Denny. If you hit a shaft with a very low torque i.e the club is going to feel boardy.

... if the manufacturer has not softened the flex profile to counteract the effect of the low torque, which they normally do.

Shafts that have stiff tip sections, regardless of the torque, feel boardy even if the sweet spot is hit dead on. Reasonably flexible shafts transmits the good feeling that we all love.

[BC MIST]

not sure about bend point i know the Speeder is mid/high and the Accra might be mid/low

If the "KP" range is about 2" as the experts say, then a "MID/HIGH" KP would be at 21.5" and a "MID/LOW" would be at 20.5". This would then mean that the trajectory of one would be .5* higher than the other. Hmmmm!!

You are correct when you indicate that the softer tip section has an influnce on FEEL and it also has an influence on trajectory.

[stone_bone]

If the "KP" range is about 2" as the experts say, then a "MID/HIGH" KP would be at 21.5" and a "MID/LOW" would be at 20.5". This would then mean that the trajectory of one would be .5* higher than the other. Hmmmm!!

That is not what I was saying but if "KP" has virtually no effect than what gives a shaft its characteristics?
I know the butt flex and tip flex of the shaft make a big difference.
How do you calculate the location of the "KP" on a shaft?

[dbleber]

Here is the info I know of:

Accra T60 M4:

Weight: 63 grams Tip flex: 27 MOP Flex: 7.6 Tourque: 2.9 CPM: 271 Tip OD:.335
Parallel Tip Length:4.0 Butt Diameter: .608

Speeder:

flex: R, S, X flex point: Mid/High launch: Low
weight 76g, 78g, 81g tip stiffness: Medium/Stiff spin: Low
torque: 3.0° butt stiffness: Soft/Medium tempo: Fast
max length: 45.75'' butt od: Taper ball speed High

[BC MIST]

Here is the info I know of:

Accra T60 M4:

Weight: 63 grams Tip flex: 27 MOP Flex: 7.6 Tourque: 2.9 CPM: 271 Tip OD:.335
Parallel Tip Length:4.0 Butt Diameter: .608

Speeder:

flex: R, S, X flex point: Mid/High launch: Low
weight 76g, 78g, 81g tip stiffness: Medium/Stiff spin: Low
torque: 3.0° butt stiffness: Soft/Medium tempo: Fast
max length: 45.75'' butt od: Taper ball speed High

Denny,

To get a shaft profile frequency or deflection measurements are taken at 41, 36, 31, 26, 21, 16 and 11 inches from the butt end of the shaft. The measurements at 21, 16 and 11 are considered tip measurements, 41,36 and 31 the buitt measurements and 36, 31 and 26 the mid section. However, as you are aware, some companies, if they do any kind of measuring in the first place, may do this a little differently.

I compared for you the Fujikura Speeder 757 R flex and the Accra T-60 R flex. The frequencies to follow start at 41":
Fujikura/Accra
180/168
210/194
242/222
290/267
365/334
508/461
855/794

You can see that the speeder is significantly stiffer along the entire length of the shaft than the Accra. The Speeder weighs 76 g and the Accra 68 g. The butt frequency of the Accra with a driver head on and 45" of length is 238 cpms. I don't have a number for the Fujikura, however, I do have numbers of the "S" version of each and the Fujikura is 17 cpm's stiffer at the butt than the Accra. The graph of the "R" indicates that the differences are even greater than that of the "S". Additionally, the balance point of the Fujikura is 21.5" from the butt while the Accra's is 22.44".

The differences may seem small but in the scheme of things they are quite significant. The Fujikura is very stiff, heavier and with a higher balance point, and these three factors cause the ball to fly a lot lower, not the so called "kick" point.

You like your Accra, obviously. If you are interested I can give you the names of some other shafts that match up with the T-60, just for comparative purposes.

[Big Johnny69]

I'd be interested in knowing which shafts match up to the Accra BC. Please list them.

[BC MIST]

That is not what I was saying but if "KP" has virtually no effect than what gives a shaft its characteristics?
I know the butt flex and tip flex of the shaft make a big difference.
How do you calculate the location of the "KP" on a shaft?

To calculate a "kick point" the butt section is clamped and a force is applied to the tip end. The "point" of maximum bending from the butt is then determined. The bend point is similar but, equal force is applied to both ends.

The Dynacraft folks found the MAXIMUM difference in "kick" point in graphite shafts to be 1.7" and in steel shafts .64" again confirmation of the absolute insignificant affect this has on trajectory.

What makes shafts perform differently are other factors mainly how stiff they are along the entire length of the shaft. Two graphite shafts can be made with the same stiffness in the butt section but one can be made to be much softer in the tip section, ie., from roughly 10" to 25" from the actual tip. As youR golf shaft is bent forward at impact, the softer tip section adds loft to the head and a higher trajectory occurs. Examples of this are the Wishon Interflexx High and Mid/Low launch shafts which I use.

Another example is the Accuflex Evolution which has a softer butt section so you will get a feeling of flexibility or loading as you start down, but this shaft has a very stiff tip section so the shaft will not be bent forward at impact as much, so the loft of the head won't be increased and the shot flies a lot lower. The difference in tip stiffness causes the trajectory difference, not the "kick point." shafts don't kick, they only bend, and bend more in some places than others. Does this help?

[BC MIST]

I'd be interested in knowing which shafts match up to the Accra BC. Please list them.

Comparable to the Accra T-60 R
-Fujikura Speeder 553 R
-Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 A
-Graffaloy Prolite Max R
-UST V-250 R
-Aldila NVS 55 S
-Aldila NVS 75 S

[Big Johnny69]

Thanks BC, do you happen to know which shafts match up to the Accra T-60 S?

[stone_bone]

To calculate a "kick point" the butt section is clamped and a force is applied to the tip end. The "point" of maximum bending from the butt is then determined. The bend point is similar but, equal force is applied to both ends.

The difference in tip stiffness causes the trajectory difference, not the "kick point." shafts don't kick, they only bend, and bend more in some places than others. Does this help?

Thanks BC this clears it up a bit. I always thought that bend point and kick point refered to the same thing but now I know they are not the same.

In the poll you asked the difference in bend point not "kick" point but then asked in the first post the difference in "kick" point. So that confused me a bit. So is the difference in high bend and low bend point 2" as well?

[Chieflongtee]

In a way this is nothing new. More sophisticated as clubmakers zone profile with Frequency meters and Nf4's and Auditors and Flexmasters but for years they used a
deflection board. A tip weight was attached to the shaft and although both shafts ended up as stiff or regular on the board you could clearly see the difference as to where they flexed.

See the deflection board and the Apache
http://www.mccshafts.com/MultiMatch.html

[BC MIST]

Thanks BC, do you happen to know which shafts match up to the Accra T-60 S?

UST Proforce 75 R 79 g
UST Proforce V-2 60 S 67 g
UST Proforce XL S 63 g
Harrison Striper S 68 g
Graffaloy NT Prototype65G R 61 g

[Started2k3]

UST Proforce 75 R 79 g
UST Proforce V-2 60 S 67 g
UST Proforce XL S 63 g
Harrison Striper S 68 g
Graffaloy NT Prototype65G R 61 g

It appears that you have this down. Could you answer a question for me?

I have a True Temper dynamic gold S300 in my driver and I want to change to graphite. Are there any graphite shafts that match up with it? Or am I talking about "apple and oranges"?

NB - I have been toying with the idea of Accuflex Assassin II (X-stiff).

Any help would be appreciated.

[dbleber]

UST Proforce 75 R 79 g
UST Proforce V-2 60 S 67 g
UST Proforce XL S 63 g
Harrison Striper S 68 g
Graffaloy NT Prototype65G R 61 g

Thanks BC. Very interesting stuff!!! I am currently looking for a shaft that will play similar to an Accra T70 M4(Stiff) in a Titleist Bore Thru 3 and 5 wood. I would like one with out the higher costs of an Accra. Any thoughts?

[dbleber]

[QUOTE=BC MIST] The butt frequency of the Accra with a driver head on and 45" of length is 238 cpms. I don't have a number for the Fujikura, however, I do have numbers of the "S" version of each and the Fujikura is 17 cpm's stiffer at the butt than the Accra. The graph of QUOTE]

The CPM of an Accra T60 M3 is 256. That must be "raw"? Once intalled with a head the weight of the head must weakin it a bit, no?

[BC MIST]

I have been toying with the idea of Accuflex Assassin II (X-stiff).

While the Dynamic Gold says "Stiff" I have always found them to be relatively soft. That's why the S label, is just a label. The few shafts listed below have a similar profile to the S300, however, the huge difference for you to get used to will be the weight. You can also see that there are a number of "R" flexes, further indicating the softness of the S300. If you have a high club head speed, then make sure, if and when you go to graphite, that your swingweight is at least D2 or a little higher.

Sk Fiber Lite Revolution R
SK Fiber Pure Energy R
SK Tour Trac 80 R
UST Harmon CB 65 R
UST Proforce XL R
Harrison Striper Pro R
Aldila Tour Gold 65 R

My concern is that if you feel that you need an "X", then the S300 was a poor fit, ie., too soft, and those listed above would be too soft as well. Don't go by all the "R's" but by the fact that the S300 was/is NOT stiff.

Unfortunatley, I have no numbers on the Assassin II.

An indication of your swing speed, tempo, transition speed and how late you hold the wrist cock angle, may help get a better shaft suggestion.

[BC MIST]

The CPM of an Accra T60 M3 is 256. That must be "raw"? Once intalled with a head the weight of the head must weakin it a bit, no?

We may never be able to find out what UST's 256 actually means as we don't know the tip weight, shaft length used or the length of the clamp on the frequency meter. However, my best guess is that the 238 is 45" and with an actual 200 g driver head on the end and 5" clamp.

You can see why we NEED STANDARDS.