Obstruction in Hazard

[spidey]

Jack's ball flies into a hazard marked with yellow stakes. There is a culvert in the hazard which extends through the hazard into the ground beyond the stakes. We all see the ball go into the culvert.

When we approach the culvert, we cannot retrieve the ball, it has rolled down into the culvert beyond our reach, which would also put it beyond the yellow stakes.

What are Jack's options?

spidey

[Gary Hill]

If the lost ball last entered the culvert inside the hazard, the player is not entitled to relief without penalty.
The player shall proceed under Rule 26-1 (Ball in Water Hazard).

When the ball is lost in a water hazard, the player is specifically prevented from proceeding under Rule 27-1 (Ball Lost) or Rule 24-2c (Ball Lost in Immovable Obstruction)

BTW - There is no free relief from interference by an immovable obstruction in a water hazard. (e.g, bridge, fountain, pumping station, etc.)

[spidey]

Understood, tx.

So.....

If we looked into the culvert and saw the ball and identified it, and by measuring, we determined that it does not physically sit inside the yellow stakes, then we still don't get relief from (Ball lost/unretrievable in Immovable Obstruction)?

I guess I'm clarifying. If we cannot find the ball in the obstruction inside the hazard, then we cannot assume it's out of the hazard even though we all saw it enter the obstruction, and it cannot be within the margin of the hazard. BUT, if we identify it and it's outside the margin of the hazard then it's Rule 24-2c.

spidey

[Gary Hill]

If we looked into the culvert and saw the ball and identified it, and by measuring, we determined that it does not physically sit inside the yellow stakes, then we still don't get relief from (Ball lost/unretrievable in Immovable Obstruction)?

Yes, you do get free relief. You have to be very precise when applying Rules and procedures. In your original example, the ball could not be retrieved and is deemed to be lost unless it is identified. There can be no "IT" rolled outside the margin of the hazard until you have identified "IT" as the original ball in play.

In this second situation quoted above, the ball is neither lost nor in the hazard and my first explanation doesn't apply.[1] The player would be entitled to drop a ball, without penalty, within one club length of the spot on the ground immediately above its resting place in the culvert. Vertical distance is disregarded.

If we cannot find the ball in the obstruction inside the hazard, then we cannot assume it's out of the hazard even though we all saw it enter the obstruction

True.

and it cannot be within the margin of the hazard

This statement, is again, false by definition. There is reasonable evidence that the ball lodged in the hazard or there is not. The ball in play is found outside the hazard or it is not. The ball cannot, by definition, be deemed to be in the hazard by the reasonable evidence requirement and at the same time "cannot be within the margin of the hazard".

BUT, if we identify it and it's outside the margin of the hazard then it's Rule 24-2c.

Actually, it's Rule 24-2b, but you are correct. If you identify it in the culvert vertically below an area of the course through the green, you are allowed the free relief stated above at [1].

The concept of "reaonable evidence" is generally misunderstood by golfers, so I will start a separate thread.