Senior flex shaft = slice cure?

[rob]

This winter I've made a few draw-biased drivers to help cure my cronic banana slice. So far, I've made five clubs and each one is a refinement of the previsous offering.

It is trully amazing at the difference this equipment has made in my drives. My latest "wholemade club" has allowed me to hit much straighter drives 80% of the time. I only wish I had known about the options in clubmaking earlier!

Anyway, the July 2005 issue of Golf Digest has an article outlining the advantages of draw-biased clubs in curring cronic slices. It says in one section that,

"...the easiest quick fix for a slice is to use a softer flex shaft that helps the golfer close the face at impact."

My swing spead with a 5 iron is 82-85 MPH and my driver speed is 95MPH. My "best club" has a regular flex shaft - (Harrison Pro 2.5 mid bend, mid launch).

Can I take advantage of a "senior" flex shaft for my next copmonent driver considering my current swing speed of 95mph?


The "normal" recommendations for my driver swing speed of 95mph is a "regular" or "stif" flex shaft. The senior shafts have a much higher torque rating; does this matter much? I've been fitted by so-called professionals in the past. They say, go with the stiffer flex shaft. Does this exact opposite hold true if a golfer has trouble closing the face?

[Chieflongtee]

First and foremost if you slice the ball get an offset club with a closed face. That will do more for you than a softer flex shaft. I could rant on and on about this but I strongly suggest you get Tom Wishon's book: Search for the perfect club. You will find all the answers to your questions.

[rob]

Oh thanks. All my new wholemade clubs have offset and close face heads. I just ordered a new 12 loft Integra Soolong with a 2 degree closed face, movable weights in 460cc.

I also ordered a senior shaft. I'm somewhat concerned about trying the senior shaft but, what the hell, I can always changed it; right?

[rob]

The Golf Digest article mentions the Wishon book. Is this a current publication or something that was written years ago?

Where is it sold?


f;

[Chieflongtee]

Get the book. Too many factors i.e angle of attack, swing tempo, a hitter vs a swinger. A nice slice correction is Golfsmith's special force driver.

[Chieflongtee]

Published last year. Got mine through amazon but I remember reading about its availability in Ottawa.

[MusicMan]

yes a softer shaft would help cure your slice somewhat, though getting a softer shaft and still keeping that midkickpoint kinda cancels eachother out. i believe that when the shaft has a higher kickpoint or mid bend as you call it it is making the shaft stiffer. IE: a regular flex NV swings like a stiff or a prolauch stiff flex swings like a reg with a lower kick point. so maybe keeping re flex cuz your sure swinging fast enough, but change shafts to something with a lower kickpoint something along the lines of a prolaunch. i know that for me personaly i played a cut with my old driver (NV 62-s) with a stiff shaft and i switched to a reg flex Fujikura 757 to get somemore control. i recomend hitting up a vector lauch monitor at some point before making any shaft adjustment. this will tell you what you need to be looking for in a shaft. its well worth the $50 and will save you money in the long run instead of swapping $100 shafts once a week to get what you looking for...

- JP

[BC MIST]

It is trully amazing at the difference this equipment has made in my drives. My latest "wholemade club" has allowed me to hit much straighter drives 80% of the time. I only wish I had known about the options in clubmaking earlier!
Anyway, the July 2005 issue of Golf Digest has an article outlining the advantages of draw-biased clubs in curring cronic slices. It says in one section that,

"...the easiest quick fix for a slice is to use a softer flex shaft that helps the golfer close the face at impact."

My swing spead with a 5 iron is 82-85 MPH and my driver speed is 95MPH. My "best club" has a regular flex shaft - (Harrison Pro 2.5 mid bend, mid launch).
Can I take advantage of a "senior" flex shaft for my next copmonent driver considering my current swing speed of 95mph?


The "normal" recommendations for my driver swing speed of 95mph is a "regular" or "stif" flex shaft. The senior shafts have a much higher torque rating; does this matter much? I've been fitted by so-called professionals in the past. They say, go with the stiffer flex shaft. Does this exact opposite hold true if a golfer has trouble closing the face?

I find it interesting that you put the words senior, regular and stiff in "quotation" marks. This would suggest to me that you KNOW that what is stamped on the shaft graphics, is NOT what flex the shaft is, a very high percentage of the time. Example: I took a Hogan Apex 4 ("stiff") shaft out of a hybrid for a forum member yesterday and discovered that it butt frequencied at 290 cpm's for its given length. This name, OEM shaft has not quite broken out of the "Ladies" flex range into the senior flex range. This is typical. My STIFF Accuflex VS339 has a stiffer butt but a softer tip. My REGULAR Accuflex Evolution has a softer butt but a very stiff tip. Each performs a little different in terms of trajectory, distance and dispersion for my 100 mph swing speed.

So while you might like to try a "senior" shaft, until you know what a senior flex really is, you may be wasting your money. However, to answer your question, a true senior flex will tend to have the face slightly more closed at impact, but any significant improvements in your ball flight, came not from your clubs, but from your improved swing. No club will make your "banana slice," if this is what you really have, a straight shot and that includes changing a few grams of the weight distribution. Subtle differences, yes, maybe even observable, but wholesale differences, not so. If this were true, then everyone would be hitting only straight shots.

Just because your swing speed is 95 mph, does not mean that you NEED a "regular flex." If you have a very forceful start to your downswing, or a fast tempo or if you have a very late release of your wrist c0ck angle, then not only would your shaft butt flex need to be altered, but you may need to have the tip flex altered, too . This why those who sell clubs, whether retail or club fitters, should know the flex characteristics of the entire shaft, not just the butt or what is on the label. The retailers do NOT. Most club fitters, do NOT, IMO. A few do.

What I am trying to say is that HOW you swing the club is more important in getting a shaft than how FAST you swing. This concept is not new, but probably new to some.

Lastly, "kick point" is a misnomer as there is really no point on the shaft that kicks the head forward or into the ball. It is merely the point on the shaft where the greatest amout of BEND occurs, when the golfer is swinging down. The difference between a HIGH KP and a LOW KP shaft, is approximately 1 degree of trajectory, and something you may or may not even notice. While there may be a correlation between "kick" point and shaft flex, there may not be as the flex label refers to butt flex and the "kick" point is far from the butt.

Truthfully, if you have a banana slice, work on your swing first, and on your clubs second. The marketers have convinced a huge proportion of the golfing population, that if they buy their clubs, that they will become a player. Not even close.

[beefstuf]

I usually lose interest in these long posts, but that was awesome. Always like to hear what you have to say BC. You should write a column for a golf magazine, or small publication.

[Chieflongtee]

I usually lose interest in these long posts, but that was awesome. Always like to hear what you have to say BC. You should write a column for a golf magazine, or small publication.

One thing for sure. He did not keep his New Year resolution for very long

12-21-2005, 07:52 PM #24
BC MIST
Sir Post-a-lot


Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,141 1. Win the MDS Nordion 5k race in the 60 -64 age group on May 27, 2006.

2. Maintain the #1 position on the OVGA senior ladder.

3. Maintain the level of play, (12 FW & 14 GIR) through 2006, as I doubt that at age 60, that I can improve much on these.

4. Continue my fitness routine of running 4 days a week, walking and showshoeing or cycling on the other 3, weights 3 days a week and stretching 7 days a week.

5. Shorten my OG Forum posts.

6. Help Sphere Hunter with his putting.
__________________

[downhillslider]

I find it interesting that you put the words senior, regular and stiff in "quotation" marks. This would suggest to me that you KNOW that what is stamped on the shaft graphics, is NOT what flex the shaft is, a very high percentage of the time. Example: I took a Hogan Apex 4 ("stiff") shaft out of a hybrid for a forum member yesterday and discovered that it butt frequencied at 290 cpm's for its given length. This name, OEM shaft has not quite broken out of the "Ladies" flex range into the senior flex range. This is typical. My STIFF Accuflex VS339 has a stiffer butt but a softer tip. My REGULAR Accuflex Evolution has a softer butt but a very stiff tip. Each performs a little different in terms of trajectory, distance and dispersion for my 100 mph swing speed.

So while you might like to try a "senior" shaft, until you know what a senior flex really is, you may be wasting your money. However, to answer your question, a true senior flex will tend to have the face slightly more closed at impact, but any significant improvements in your ball flight, came not from your clubs, but from your improved swing. No club will make your "banana slice," if this is what you really have, a straight shot and that includes changing a few grams of the weight distribution. Subtle differences, yes, maybe even observable, but wholesale differences, not so. If this were true, then everyone would be hitting only straight shots.

Just because your swing speed is 95 mph, does not mean that you NEED a "regular flex." If you have a very forceful start to your downswing, or a fast tempo or if you have a very late release of your wrist c0ck angle, then not only would your shaft butt flex need to be altered, but you may need to have the tip flex altered, too . This why those who sell clubs, whether retail or club fitters, should know the flex characteristics of the entire shaft, not just the butt or what is on the label. The retailers do NOT. Most club fitters, do NOT, IMO. A few do.

What I am trying to say is that HOW you swing the club is more important in getting a shaft than how FAST you swing. This concept is not new, but probably new to some.

Lastly, "kick point" is a misnomer as there is really no point on the shaft that kicks the head forward or into the ball. It is merely the point on the shaft where the greatest amout of BEND occurs, when the golfer is swinging down. The difference between a HIGH KP and a LOW KP shaft, is approximately 1 degree of trajectory, and something you may or may not even notice. While there may be a correlation between "kick" point and shaft flex, there may not be as the flex label refers to butt flex and the "kick" point is far from the butt.

Truthfully, if you have a banana slice, work on your swing first, and on your clubs second. The marketers have convinced a huge proportion of the golfing population, that if they buy their clubs, that they will become a player. Not even close.

You da man BC !!
That was pretty much what I was going to say. But since you beat me to it .
Is it not facinating how people who really know what they are talking about, get little or no respect. I'ts a name brand world out there !

["Richard"]

BC, I have another question for you. If I get custom fit for a shaft, what happens if my swing speed goes up because of my working out? Do I have to get fit again? If I get fit at 100mph and then I go upto 110mph do I need to get fit again? How many MPH can you go up without being fit agian?

[Chieflongtee]

Make a long story short. If a golfer gas a fade and gets too soft a shaft the ball will fade a little less. Too stiff a shaft will make this particular fade a little more. And while it is best to work on your swing not everyone has the time and inclination to do so therefore until the swing flaw is corrected an offset closed face club will put an instant patch(i.e reduce the slice by a good 10-15 yards or so) on the slice.

[BC MIST]

BC, I have another question for you. If I get custom fit for a shaft, what happens if my swing speed goes up because of my working out? Do I have to get fit again? If I get fit at 100mph and then I go upto 110mph do I need to get fit again? How many MPH can you go up without being fit agian?

Because I don't believe that swing speed is the sole determinant of shaft flex choice, my best guess is that what works at 100mph will also work at 110, unless, (1) you change your tempo, which is unlikely, (2) you delay the unhinging until later in the downswing - unlikely again, as you indicate that you are changing your strength not your swing, and (3) you change the speed of your transition from BS to DS.

With an increase in net swing speed, there may be a little increase in trajectory, and if that happens, a stiffer tipped shaft may be in order.

If you have a shaft that works well for you, then it would be a good idea to have the shaft profiled, making it easier to find one that matches the first. Tom Wishon now has shaft profiling software available where he has done just that.

[BC MIST]

Is it not facinating how people who really know what they are talking about, get little or no respect.

Yes and no. From comments and PM's, I know that some appreciate insight from alternate sources and if that helps a golfer get equipment that they like and is better for their swings, all the better. On the other hand, there are those who have not done any homework and get caught up in the status of buying something that "Tiger" plays, thinking that that will make them better players. To each his own. I just want to know the truth.

[rob]

I saw the Golfsmith "slice killer" driver. The new model this year is available only in a 13 loft.

Last year the same model was an 11 loft which is more suitable to my swing. I made a 14 loft driver a few months ago and I hit the ball sky high with it so a 13 loft is too much for me.

I've made a few Golfsmith clubs and, so far, I don't like them as much as other manufacturors.

[clubfixer]

Rob,

Your not listening... Spend $30 on one lesson to learn how to turn the club over. Then you can throw out all the clubs that haven't worked and build one that you will enjoy playing with.

Painfully direct, but with a lot a love.

[Chieflongtee]

Rob,

Your not listening... Spend $30 on one lesson to learn how to turn the club over. Then you can throw out all the clubs that haven't worked and build one that you will enjoy playing with.

Painfully direct, but with a lot a love.

If you turn it over with an outside in swing he may not get the anticipated results

[clubfixer]

Hi Chief,

I must have misread the post. I kind of skip through especially when they are "BC Long". That man should write a book. He is a world of knowledge. I thought he had a problem slicing, not pull slicing. Either way, he will clearly be a happier camper once he corrects the face angle and or path issues he is having before throwing away more $$$

[Chieflongtee]

I was just kidding. I'll leave the instruction part to our beloved BC.

[BC MIST]

Hi Chief,

I must have misread the post. I kind of skip through especially when they are "BC Long". That man should write a book. He is a world of knowledge. I thought he had a problem slicing, not pull slicing. Either way, he will clearly be a happier camper once he corrects the face angle and or path issues he is having before throwing away more $$$

Hrumppff!!!!! BC Long, eh?

Briefly, DON'T TURN IT OVER or you will go from a conservative to a liberal.
1. Cure PATH issue first.
2. Cure FACE issue secind.

How is that for brief?

[Chieflongtee]

Hrumppff!!!!! BC Long, eh?

Briefly, DON'T TURN IT OVER or you will go from a conservative to a liberal.
1. Cure PATH issue first.
2. Cure FACE issue secind.

How is that for brief?

That was a very brief case