Rich Beem's use of Hat on Saturday

[GarthM]

Gary:

Perhaps you can clarify exactly what happened on Saturday with Rich Beem using his hat to remove sand from the green?

The commentators suggested that since his ball was not on the green that using the hat was allowed. That is fine and good, however I was always under the impression that if you were not on the green that you could not remove any loose impediment from the green, with or without your hat!

Can you elaborate?

Thanks

GarthM

[Gary Hill]

First, we have to determine the status of the sand.

The definition of loose impediments tells us:
Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Therefore, the sand (only when on the putting green) is a loose impediment.

Next we have to determine whether we can remove it.

Rule 23-1 (Relief from Loose Impediments) tells us:
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

Therefore, we (and Rick Beem) may remove the sand from the putting green.

There are specific Rules that apply (although not is this case) when the ball lies on the putting green.

The definition of Line of Putt tells us:
The "line of putt'' is the line which the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green.

Rule 16 (The Putting Green) tells us:
16-1a. Touching Line of Putt
The line of putt must not be touched except:
i. the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down;

Therefore, when your ball is on the putting green and you wish to remove loose impediments on your line of putt, Rule 16-1a(i) prohibits brushing them aside with anything other than your hand or the club.
(You may remember Jesper Parnevik being penalized for brushing aside loose impediments on the putting green with his glove.)

Rules Tip #72: Never count on rules information from TV commentators.

These are the same bozos that during the Buick Invitational said you can't drop onto the putting green when taking relief from a lateral water hazard.

Some are notoriously brutal with the Rules. *cough* curtis strange *cough*

[Colby]

Was that a hint of sarcasm?!?

[LBH]

Therefore, Gary, if I understand your answer correctly, the following should have happened to Rich Beem on Saturday:

1) Penalty of two strokes for using his hat to brush off the sand
2) Disqualification for signing a scorecard with a wrong score.

And Tiger should have won, right?

[Colby]

Huh?!?

Rich's ball was not on the green. So Gary's quote:

Rule 23-1 (Relief from Loose Impediments) tells us:
Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty.

Tells us that Rich could use his hat to remove the loose sand as it is defined as a loose impediment, as per Gary:

The definition of loose impediments tells us:
Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere

And Rich was not putting, so he could not touch his line of putt.

As Gary said:

Therefore, we (and Rick Beem) may remove the sand from the putting green. (implied - with his hat)

So no penalties and his card was correct. Is that right Gary?

[Gary Hill]

No penalties and his card was correct.

[statsfreak]

That whole incident seemed to indicate that those rules need to be re-examined (in my opinion).

If I understand correctly, the rules say that if I'm on the fringe or just off the green, I could take a broom and clear the path to the hole for my chip, but the moment my ball is on the green I can only use my club or bare hand (and I always thought the Pros took their glove off on the green for comfort...now I understand that it could also be to avoid an unfortunate penalty perhaps).

So if I anticipate where my ball will end up following my chip and go ahead and clean that area prior to the chip it would be OK, but after the chip it would be a penatly (if I had used the broom). Obviously I'm exagerating to make the point, but it seems that if you allow it in one situation you shouldn't penalize it in another. Perhaps there is some underlying rationale for this difference I'm missing, so if you know what it is Gary I would be interested in knowing what it is.

[Gary Hill]

Brushing aside a loose impediment on the putting green with your hand IN the glove would NOT result in a penalty.
Jesper has his glove OFF and used it as a "tool" to brush aside a loose impediment.

We are taking only about the "method" of removing a loose impediment on the putting green.
The putting green and the putting line are very special things under the Rules.
This "method" of removal stipulation on the putting green is in place to protect the line of putt.
The Rules makers are not against removing loose impediments, but they are definitely against improving your line of putt.

Through the green, loose impediments may be large enough to require "help" or "special means" in removal.
You may remember Tiger's famous "big rock incident" where a huge rock was rolled away from his line of play.
By designation, no such issues are contemplated on the putting green.
You should never need to roll a big rock off the putting green.
It would be near impossible to determine whether or not this action improved the line of putt.

The underlying rationale also has to do with the fact that, generally speaking, most shots through the green are "airborn".
You have no way of knowing where your ball is going after it hits the ground.
However, on the putting green, the exact line is known and must be protected.

For example, stepping on an acorn 10 feet in front of your ball on the fairway would not improve your line of play, but stepping on an acorn on your line of putt would improve your line of putt.

Rule 13-2 (Improving line of play) covers all other situations (e.g. using a broom) where improving the line of play is involved.

[JimmyW]

Therefore, when your ball is on the putting green and you wish to remove loose impediments on your line of putt, Rule 16-1a(i) prohibits brushing them aside with anything other than your hand or the club. GARY HILL

I know I'll hate myself for asking this , But are "on the putting green" and "when you are putting" the same thing?? I'm on the fringe - putting, can I improve my line as per 16.1a.i??

"the player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down ; "

JW

[Gary Hill]

I am frequently asked about this important distinction.

You may or may not have noticed that I quoted the definition of "Line of Putt" earlier in thread.
This was to clarify that "line of putt" refers to a stroke ON the putting green.

The Rules define the putting green and strokes played on the putting green.
The Rules do not prohibit the use of certain clubs from certain places nor do they stipulate that certain clubs be used at certain places.
Therefore, there is no such thing under the Rules as a "putt from the fringe" (or in PGA Tour stats).

Rule 16-1(a) deals with "line of putt". The term "line of putt" can only be used when your ball is on the putting green.
Therefore, if you are on the fringe (even if you have a putter in your hand), you would be able to remove loose impediments on the putting green with a hat.

When talking about golf situations, players are pretty casual with the actual terms and definitions.
Statements like "I am out of bounds" or "You are in the water hazard" are not a problem until you get to an actual Ruling.

The Rules have to be VERY specific.
The Rules speak to situations when "the ball" is OB or "the ball" is in a water hazard.

Take, for example, the grounding of your club on a bridge in a water hazard.
Most players believe this is prohibited because "you can't ground your club in a hazard".
While this may be a good rule of thumb, it is not technically correct.
The Rule actually says: you can't touch the ground or water a water hazard.

[jimrobin]

Even I can answer that one (I think).

Off the green is not considered a putt. Whether you use your putter of not. Even PGA tour stats don't consider it a putt.

Let's go to the extreme.
Let's say someone wanted to tee-off with their putter.
Believe it or not "That is not considered a putt."

[em69]

Originally posted by Gary Hill
For example, stepping on an acorn 10 feet in front of your ball on the fairway would not improve your line of play, but stepping on an acorn on your line of putt would improve your line of putt.

Improve?? you'd think it would make it worse? It is squished all over the place.

[Chris]

#1. Now let's say that my 'ball' is on the green and my (very considerate) playing partner walks over and uses his/her hat/glove to brush aside a loose impediment between my ball and the hole. Since it wasn't me who broke the rule would my partner be penalized.

#2. When you are on the putting green are you allowed to repair a ball mark that is in the path of your putt?

#3 Am I allowed (without penalty) to step on any acorns that are in my partners line of putt?

[Gary Hill]

1. If a competitor's breach of a Rule assists his partner's play, the partner incurs the applicable penalty in addition to any penalty incurred by the competitor. You would both be penalized.

2. The player may repair damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player's ball lies on the putting green.

3. The player may move sand and loose soil on the putting green and other loose impediments by picking them up or by brushing them aside with his hand or a club without pressing anything down. You would both be penalized.

[spidey]

Gary,

In example one, it was implied that the fellow competitor was solely acting to improve the line of putt of the player via a breach of the rules. But, what if the fellow competitor's ball is off the green, and he wishes to play through the sand that is on the player's line of putt. In other words, had the player's line of putt not been there, he would have been entitled to brush aside the sand with his hat.

Is he penalized for using his hat even though he would not be penalized for using his hat if the player's line of putt was not there?

Of course it would be simpler for the competitor to use his hand or putter to remove the sand, but I'm just wondering if the rules and/or decisions address this.

[Gary Hill]

Generally speaking, the Rules are applied as if the player were alone on the course.

For example, if my ball is on the fringe and my lie or line of play is affected by sand between my ball and hole, I am not allowed to remove the sand.

On the other hand, if a fellow-competitor's shot from a bunker deposits sand between my ball and hole, I am allowed to remove the sand deposited by the shot.
A player is entitled to the lie and line of play he had when his ball came to rest.

Some Rules, however, require the compliance of another player.
If I wish to lift my ball for identification, I must give you an opportunity to observe the lifting and replacement, otherwise I am penalized.

You question has to do with player's rights.

You may not compromise my rights while executing your rights.

For example, you and I both have similar lines of putt.
We are both allowed to remove loose impediments on that line.
However, if it is my turn to play and I request that you not remove loose impediments on the line, you loose your right to do so until it is your turn to play.

Another example:

If my ball is on the putting green and you are chipping onto the putting green, I may request that you wait until I have marked my ball.
If you play before I have an opportunity to lift, you are disqualified.

If a competitor refuses to comply with a Rule affecting the rights of another competitor, he shall be disqualified.

Now that I have explained player's rights, here is the test question:

A and B are partners in a four-ball match against C and D. B's ball is away. Player A putts first and in doing so stands on C's line of putt during the stroke. What's the ruling?

[spidey]

Decision:

16-1a/13 Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player's line of putt. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable.
In equity (Rule 1-4), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition. The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone. If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii). (Revised)

So if it was unintentional and the line of putt was not altered, there is no penalty.

If it was altered, the player is entitled to restore the line to the way it was.

If it cannot be fixed, the player is entitled to relief by the committee.

If it was intentional, then it is loss of hole for players A & B.

[Gary Hill]

Wrong decision. Player A did not accidentally step on C's line of putt. Player A intentionally stood on the line.

Why was A putting when B was away?

1. To whom and how many penaties are involved here?

2. Give the ruling with an explanation of each penalty.

[spidey]

30-3. Best-Ball and Four-Ball Match Play

c. Order of Play
Balls belonging to the same side may be played in the order the side considers best.

f. Effect of Other Penalties
If a player’s breach of a Rule assists his partner’s play or adversely affects an opponent’s play, the partner incurs the applicable penalty in addition to any penalty incurred by the player.

Decision
1-2/1 Line of Putt Altered Purposely by Opponent or Fellow-Competitor by Stepping on It

Q. An opponent or a fellow-competitor purposely steps on the player's line of putt with the intention either of improving the line (e.g., by pressing down a raised tuft of grass) or of damaging it (e.g., by making spike marks). What is the ruling?

A. In either case, the opponent or the fellow-competitor was in breach of Rule 1-2. The penalty is loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, unless the Committee decides to impose a penalty of disqualification - see Note under Rule 1-2.

So, side A and B are away, Rule 30-3c says either partner may play.

B plays and stands on C's line. Decision 16-1-2/1 Loss of hole.

A incurs penalty of loss of hole rule 30-3f.

Match proceeds to next hole.

[Gary Hill]

Player A is allowed to putt because his side is away. Correct (Rule 30-3c).

Player B didn't step on anybody's line.
Player A putted while standing on Player C's line.

Decision 1-2/1 is not applicable.
Player A stepped on the line of putt with the intention of neither improving nor damaging the line of putt.

Player A would only incur a penalty under Rule 30-3f if player B incurred a penalty. Player B did not incur a penalty.

So, we know that player A was allowed to play first and I have already given you that player B did not incur a penalty.

What Rule did player A breach?

[spidey]

30-3c/1 Player Putting First When Partner Farther from Hole Stands on Partner’s or Opponent’s Line of Putt
Q. A and B are partners in a four-ball match. A’s ball is closer to the hole than any other ball and it is B’s turn to play. A-B decide that A shall putt before B — Rule 30-3c. However, in doing so A would be standing on B’s line of putt or the line of putt of an opponent. What is the ruling?

A. A would be entitled to putt first even if he would be standing on B’s line. Rule 30-3c takes precedence over Rule 16-1a which prohibits touching the line of putt.
A would also be entitled to putt first if he would be standing on an opponent’s line of putt. However, it would be a sporting gesture by A-B if they relinquished A’s right to putt first in these circumstances.

so.... rule 16-1a is potentially breached, however rule 30-3c takes precedence.... no penalty.

[Gary Hill]

Correct.        

[spidey]

Egad... and only three tries... I must be getting better...


Follow-up questions Gary:

1) Can you give permission for your fellow-competitor to step on your line? In the Scottish PGA on Sunday, Adam Scott let his competitor putt out first, and he was very close to Adam's line. The announcer said something to the effect that Adam wouldn't mind if his line was trodden on (he had a 10 stroke lead).

2) What happens if both players in a match would have to stand on each other's line? I guess one would have to be left handed and the other right handed, and their balls would be approximately equidistant from the hole such that either one would probably have to stand in the other's line in order to take his putting stance.

[Gary Hill]

1) Technically speaking, you cannot give someone permission to step on your line.

However, what you generally see on TV is a player asking whether he will be on the other player's line of putt. The other player almost always answers: "No, you are ok." (Sometimes the other player will actually look at line, but not very often).


2) If the balls are equidistant from the hole, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot. So, in the end, somebody is deemed "away" and he plays first.

[spidey]

1) Technically speaking, you cannot give someone permission to step on your line.

However, what you generally see on TV is a player asking whether he will be on the other player's line of putt. The other player almost always answers: "No, you are ok." (Sometimes the other player will actually look at line, but not very often).

Hmmm... so, then I infer that the player can be penalized for stepping on the other's line regardless of the reasons for stepping on the line?


2) If the balls are equidistant from the hole, the ball to be played first should be decided by lot. So, in the end, somebody is deemed "away" and he plays first.

.... so, then whoever plays first must step in the other's line and is subject to the penalty... decided by lot?

[Gary Hill]

1) If a fellow-competitor steps on your line accidentally there is no penalty.
If a fellow-competitor steps on your line with the intention of either improving or damaging the line it is a penalty.

2) Neither player is subject to penalty in your hypothetical case. You have obviously not follow the logic on player's rights.
The player whose ball is deemed away by lot (i.e. lottery, coin flip) has the right to play.
His right to play supersedes the other player's right not to have his line stepped on.
If this action damages the other player's line, the other player has the right to have the Committee repair the line or if the Committee is not available, he may repair the damage himself.

[spidey]

Gary: You have obviously not follow the logic on player's rights.

Perhaps not, but I continue to follow up with questions until I get it... and I think I get it now.

[spidey]

Gary:
1) If a fellow-competitor steps on your line accidentally there is no penalty.
If a fellow-competitor steps on your line with the intention of either improving or damaging the line it is a penalty.

But, again, you fail to address the possibility that the FC is stepping on the line on purpose but not with the intention of damaging or improving the line. This is the point that you seem to be trying to make, but not saying it explicitly.

In this case, is the FC penalized for stepping on the line on purpose, regardless of whether or not his intent is to affect the line of the putt?

[em69]

"Ooh...I'm sorry was that your putting line???
Since I apologized, let's just say it wasn't intentional, therefore you cannot penalize me."

[Gary Hill]

If a player wants to gets to the other side of the green and knowingly steps on your line in the process, it is a penalty.

Simple enough?