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  1. #1
    Par Samick is on a distinguished road
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    Players / Rules / Callers


    I turned on TGC in my morning ritual while eating my breakfast...checking out the latest Golf Central or whathaveyou......when a show called "In his own Words" came on.

    It was Tiger (surprise!) talking about the 2005 masters and walking Kelly Tilman through his final round. Now, I cant remember if it was 13 or 14 that he actually putted off the green and into the creek.....but the following hole after making bogey he had a tap in for another (I think...).

    When he tapped the ball in the hole, he used the "tip of the toe" of his putter, and stood pretty much behind the ball in a direct line to the hole (2"). Some viewer called in and said that Tiger was in breach of a rule that you can't stand directly in line with your ball and hole while putting. Tiger was made to go to the media trailer THAT NIGHT to view the tape with all of the officials to see if indeed he broke a rule. Now, from my view angle I thought he stood right in line with the ball and hole and pushed the ball in with the toe of the putter straight away from his chest. The rules officials and Tiger viewed it differently and no penalty was given.

    So I ask you two questions (not about the rule itself);

    1) Do you think that some high profile players get preferential treatment when it comes to rules.....like Tiger in this example...and Stewart Cink in the "loose impediment" incident at Harbour Town (I think).

    2) Do you think that people should be allowed to call in and rat out a player for breaking a rule or the posibility of breaking a rule?


    My thoughts;
    1) YES
    2) No

    Anybody else???

  2. #2
    Competitor challengegolf is on a distinguished road challengegolf's Avatar
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    rules

    Good questions.
    At #1 I'll say no (Michelle Wie disqualification)
    and #2 I'll also say no as it spoiles the game. They are all pro golfers and they have the aide of rule officials so I don't think that a caller who gets a chance to see the infraction over and over on replay should influence the outcome of a tournament.
    Just my opinion.
    Claude

  3. #3
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    I agree with you Claude. If the rules official or any of the guys in the group don't catch it then the infraction was missed, move on.

    Come to think of it, maybe Sat night while watching the game I'll call in some trips, hooks and slashes to CBC that I think deserves a penalty. I'm sure the players and refs would appreciate it.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  4. #4
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    I agree with you Claude. If the rules official or any of the guys in the group don't catch it then the infraction was missed, move on.

    Come to think of it, maybe Sat night while watching the game I'll call in some trips, hooks and slashes to CBC that I think deserves a penalty. I'm sure the players and refs would appreciate it.
    The assumption you are making is that there is a rules official watching every group. Maybe there should be, but there isn't. The players referee themselves for the most part, and the smarter ones ask for a ruling if they're not sure.

    Take the referees off the ice on Saturday night and see how many trips, hooks and slashes get called by the players themselves. The game would be played a little differently, I think!
    [COLOR=green][B]Golf is a game invented by the same people who think music comes out of bagpipes.[/B][/COLOR]

  5. #5
    Out of Bounds buckylasek is on a distinguished road buckylasek's Avatar
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    I'll say 1) Yes, Wie is just famous, the PGA know they have more people watching with tiger on.
    2) NO, obvisouly disqualification should be made after the round.

  6. #6
    Par Samick is on a distinguished road
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    The problem I have with people calling in, especially after a round is over, is how long or far back do you go to enforce a rule infraction? 1 day? 4 days? A year?

    People at home get to view it over and over and over.....looking for any possibility for a rules infraction. Somebody can go out of their way to watch sommebody to screw up a little and call in...does it make them feel good? How can you be sure they are doing it "for the good of the game"?

    I say, if somebody is there, let them speak up. People at home? Just keep watching your TV, sit back, and enjoy the theatrics.

    Thats my personal view anyway.

  7. #7
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap_logan
    The problem I have with people calling in, especially after a round is over, is how long or far back do you go to enforce a rule infraction? 1 day? 4 days? A year?
    In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. (See Rule 34-1b.)

  8. #8
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    In the case of a four round PGA event that would bean after all scoreas are tabulated and finlalized on Sunday. The Michelle Wie infraction was called by the SI reporter the next day (Sunday).

  9. #9
    Par Samick is on a distinguished road
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    Thats two things I have learned today! Thanks Gary

    So what do you think about call in Gary?

  10. #10
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap_logan
    The problem I have with people calling in, especially after a round is over, is how long or far back do you go to enforce a rule infraction? 1 day? 4 days? A year?
    Generally speaking, you can't enforce a rule infraction after the tournament is over:

    34-1. Claims and Penalties

    b. Stroke Play
    In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

    Exceptions: A penalty of disqualification must be imposed after the competition has closed if a competitor:

    (i) was in breach of Rule 1-3 (Agreement to Waive Rules); or
    (ii) returned a score card on which he had recorded a handicap that, before the competition closed, he knew was higher than that to which he was entitled, and this affected the number of strokes received (Rule 6-2b); or
    (iii) returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred; or
    (iv) knew, before the competition closed, that he had been in breach of any other Rule for which the penalty is disqualification.
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  11. #11
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ap_logan
    Thats two things I have learned today! Thanks Gary

    So what do you think about call in Gary?
    Let's use the example of a player in your club championship marking his ball 10 feet towards the hole.

    Would you allow the Committee to question:

    A fellow-competitor?
    A fellow-competitor's caddie?
    A spectator?
    A spectator on the roof with binoculars?
    A person on a public road near the putting green?
    A person at home watching on television?

    BTW - ALL of the people named above are "outside agencies"

    Golf is NOT like any other sport.
    Others have officials in place to call penalties.
    In golf, the players are the officials and the Committee is there to resolve their disputes.

  12. #12
    Out of Bounds buckylasek is on a distinguished road buckylasek's Avatar
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    I'm learning many things here.

  13. #13
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    For those with a hockey, basketball, baseball, and football mindset, where there are officials present to call infractions, it is apparently difficult for some to see that golf is different. When I play, I am my own referee and any other officials present are there to assist me in using the correct procedures, not to call me AFTER I have made a mistake.

    If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around, does it make a noise? If a golfer breaks a rule and Joe Schmuck sees it on TV and calls it in, was the rule still broken? Yes. Yes. In hockey, if the ref ignores an infraction, the infraction "did not happen," and cannot influence the outcome of the game. In golf, the infraction happened, and must be dealt with, regardless of who saw it. That is just the way the game is played. Golf is different.

    Those with the hockey mindset would then agree then that if I break a rule on #7, that no-one can call me on it after we putt out on any succeeding hole because it was missed on #7. Obviously untrue. People just have to learn that any infraction in golf can be called up to the time when the competition is officially over. A normal PGA Tour event is not really 4 eighteen hole rounds, but one 72 hole round played eighteen holes at a time over 4 days.

    I must admit that, because I don't have a hockey,... mindset, I have tremendous difficulty understanding why some golfers think that it is OK for rules to be broken, and for no consequences to be imposed on the perpetrator.

  14. #14
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    I'm not saying it is ok to break the rules. But, like the Wie incident for example, if everyone in the playing group agrees on a ruling (using their interpretation of the rules) then that ruling should stand. Someone at home should not get to call in after seeing the replay 20 times. Maybe the Tour should have an official(s) in an onsite trailer watching replays to make sure rulings/penalties are applied properly. At least it would eliminate the day after fiascos of people coming forward with something they saw.

    And from my understanding on Tour there is usually an official not too far away. But if they need further interpretation there is always a "head" official to consult with. If I'm wrong I stand corrected. Every sport with officials (whether it be golf where you police your own, or a sport with a ref) will always have that human element to it. And as in other sports, the ruling on the field stands. I just feel it should be that way in golf. If a specatator at the event, at the time of the incident wants to speak up go right ahead, you are there and saw it happen. But only if you are asked. But someone at home who gets the benefit of replay should not be allowed to call in just because they have nothing better to do.


    el tigre, I actually play in a summer hockey league. We have no refs and there is not any more hooking, tripping, slashing etc that you would have in an officiated league. We call offsides, icings penalties on ourselves. And with any disputes we consult with players on each team (like fellow playing competitors in golf) and come to a solution based on what the majority saw. Whether or not it goes against your team or not, we agree based on the majority decision. We don't ask anybody in the stands or the arena crew to resove anything. And that is how I feel golf should be. What was decided in the group is the solution, end of story.

    Just my two cents.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  15. #15
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    if everyone in the playing group agrees on a ruling (using their interpretation of the rules) then that ruling should stand.
    Someone in the competition is playing with 40 clubs in his bag.
    Everyone in his group agrees that because he only used 14 of the 40 clubs, he doesn't get disqualified.

    Should the player win the competition?

  16. #16
    Out of Bounds buckylasek is on a distinguished road buckylasek's Avatar
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    No because it's not the rule. 2 points per club per hole, or loose the hole in matchplay.

  17. #17
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    Not saying that Gary. Rules of golf state only 14 clubs. Someone would have seen that and called him on it.

    I'm referring more to the resolution of drops, Tiger's line of putt question, things like that. Like I stated before, it is not ok to break the rules. My beef is with people calling in who have a seen a reply 20 times and know by inches that a ball was dropped nearer the hole. What I'm saying is if everyone agrees that the drop was no nearer the hole than that ruling should stand. Not saying its ok that the ball was dropped nearer the hole but that is what was "ruled". Is golf trying to be perfect? With the human element it never will and we sometimes have to accept errors. You'll never get all the calls correct.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  18. #18
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    What I'm saying is if everyone agrees that the drop was no nearer the hole than that ruling should stand.
    Who is everyone?

    Everyone in the group?
    Everyone in the group and their caddies?
    Everyone in the group who was actually watching?
    Everyone in the world?

    Closer to the hole drop rulings are no less important then 40 clubs in the bag rulings (unless, unlike my rulebook, your rulebook has the "important" rules in red).

    You cant pick and choose which of the rules you are going to let the "group" decide and which rules are so important or flagrant that people outside the group can call.

  19. #19
    Out of Bounds buckylasek is on a distinguished road buckylasek's Avatar
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    In the world because even my 98 years old neighboor knew it.

  20. #20
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    Whoever was involved in the decision of the ruling. Be it a spectator, playing competitor or whoever. When everyone involved is satisfied it that ruling should stand.

    And of course Gary I'm not saying pick and choose the rules you wish to play by. And no my rule book does not have the important rules in red.

    Quote Gary Hill "You cant pick and choose which of the rules you are going to let the "group" decide and which rules are so important or flagrant that people outside the group can call."

    That is what I am saying Gary, let the competitors/officials decide. Don't allow that outside agency. I don't go to hockey games and point out every rule breach that is missed. And contrary to what others believe some rule officials do walk with groups during a round. I have seen it on tv.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  21. #21
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    Don't allow that outside agency.
    I guess you missed the part earlier in the thread where I pointed out that ALL the competitors and ALL the officials are outside agencies to the player.

  22. #22
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 gbower is on a distinguished road
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    It's a game of honour and the problem there are a lot of people, including pros, that don't know the rules very well even though they should. In our tournaments we have no cameras or spectators so we have to police ourselves. On the tour all groups are not being looked at evenly as the cameras only follow a few groups and even within those groups not everyone is on camera. They should be trusted to know the rule and if not call an official and I'm sure that is going to be the case more often. When I was watching the senior Canadians at the Marshes I was shocked at what I saw at least eight players do on hole #2. If I had gone and told a few of them that they were taking an improper drop I probably would have got punched out as they were pissed off enough where they hit their shot. At least four with unplayable lies just dropped it on the fairway instead of going back and keeping the pin in line or taking their two clublengths or rehitting. A couple went off the tee into the lake and came up probably 100 yds closer to the green that from where it had crossed the hazard. It was probably the worst exibition of knowing where the NPR is that I've ever seen.
    I'm not in favor of people calling in from home where you aren't necessarily seeing the whole situation that occurs.

  23. #23
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hill
    I guess you missed the part earlier in the thread where I pointed out that ALL the competitors and ALL the officials are outside agencies to the player.

    Depends how you look at that. To me, anyone competing (includes caddy) and officiating in the event, is not an outside agency. They all have an interest (paycheck) in the outcome of the tourney. Where fans/spectators do not. Specatators (those at home as well), trees, animals, cart paths etc, are outside agencies.

    We could discuss this to no end Gary so let's just agree to disagree.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  24. #24
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    It has nothing to do with how you look at it.
    Outside agency is specifically defined in the Rules of Golf.

    Outside Agency
    An “outside agency’’ is any agency not part of the match or, in stroke play, not part of the competitor’s side, and includes a referee, a marker, an observer and a forecaddie. Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.

  25. #25
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    So outside agency is not the proper term. Maybe they should re-word or add an extension to the rule. Like I said we could discuss this to no end. I don't like it when specatators call in. Right now it's part of the game, so be it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. Accept it, sure, like it no. Just my opinion. I would rather the competitors and officials settle disputes.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  26. #26
    Green Jacket GarthM is on a distinguished road GarthM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    Depends how you look at that. To me, anyone competing (includes caddy) and officiating in the event, is not an outside agency. They all have an interest (paycheck) in the outcome of the tourney. Where fans/spectators do not. Specatators (those at home as well), trees, animals, cart paths etc, are outside agencies.

    We could discuss this to no end Gary so let's just agree to disagree.
    Except for the fact that an outside agency is defined in the rules as:

    Quote Originally Posted by RCGA
    An “outside agency’’ is any agency not part of the match or, in stroke play, not part of the competitor’s side, and includes a referee, a marker, an observer and a forecaddie. Neither wind nor water is an outside agency.
    As for the couch referee....save your long distance minutes and enjoy the coverage...quit calling in.

  27. #27
    1dash1
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    Aplogan:

    1. It depends what you call "preferential treatment". If you're suggesting that they are more lenient, I'd say NO.

    - In making any run-of-the-mill ruling, the Committee will try to get the ruling right.

    - In making a ruling on a high-profile player, the Committee will spend a commensurately greater degree of effort making sure that its ruling is absolutely correct.

    The net effect, in my opinion, is that the high profile players are scrutinized more thoroughly and the rules are more strictly enforced on them.

    2. Yes. The players have spoken about this issue and the majority favor allowing fans to call in. I support their majority opinion.

    (If I didn't know of such player polls, I'd probably have suggested some discriminating procedure be set up to review viewer call-ins, but not a complete rejection.)

  28. #28
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Johnston
    I'm not saying it is ok to break the rules. But, like the Wie incident for example, if everyone in the playing group agrees on a ruling (using their interpretation of the rules) then that ruling should stand.
    First of all, in a PGA event you are in a competition against 131 other golfers - not just the "playing group". The "group consensus" from 3 other guys who by chance just happen to be playing with you just doesn't cut it. Especially when it is your livlihood on the line.

    Secondly, in ALL sports you can only get a "ruling" from an official or referee - an unbiased third-party who has no vested interest in the outcome of the decision. What you get from other players is an "opinion", based on a very limited amount of knowledge. A player's "opinion" on the rules is virtually worthless - regardless of the sport you are playing. In a casual round of golf (or a summer hockey league), nobody really cares if your "opinion" is correct or not. When the stakes are high, your "ruling" better be correct.

    Finally Geoff, your solution rewards ignorance. While some rules provide relief for players, most rules penalize them for mistakes. Therefore, the less you know about the rules, the less you penalize yourself and therefore the lower your scores will be. Pretty soon the whole notion of "integrity" in golf becomes a joke, because "rulings" are based almost entirely on the rules knowledge of the competitors (and their willingness to apply that knowledge) - all of whom have a vested interest in knowing as little as possible.
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  29. #29
    Moderator Big Johnny69 is on a distinguished road Big Johnny69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by el tigre
    A player's "opinion" on the rules is virtually worthless - regardless of the sport you are playing.

    Ok then interpretation. Because that is what you are doing everytime you apply rules. Someone is interpretating what the rule means to that situation. I don't think a Tour pro would appreciate having his knowlegde of the rules called worthless.

    Finally Geoff, your solution rewards ignorance. While some rules provide relief for players, most rules penalize them for mistakes. Therefore, the less you know about the rules, the less you penalize yourself and therefore the lower your scores will be. Pretty soon the whole notion of "integrity" in golf becomes a joke, because "rulings" are based almost entirely on the rules knowledge of the competitors (and their willingness to apply that knowledge) - all of whom have a vested interest in knowing as little as possible.
    I don't know where you can say my solution rewards ignorance. I'm not telling the players to not call infractions on themselves. I simply stated that once a ruling has been made on the course, at the time of the incident, with the aid of a rules official (supposed expert) it should end there, unless the rules commitee would like to review it. So after confering with a supposed expert how can you say ignorance is rewarded? My problem is with people at home who have no vested interest in the tourney calling in because after watching the replay 20 times they think the ball was dropped 1/2" closer to the hole. The players are under alot of pressure and the last thing they need to think about is if someone watching at home who has nothing better to do is going to question how they applied a rule. That is what the rule officials are for. On the course decisions are made, usually with the help of an official, and if that decision suits the official it should end there. If not, then have officials with every group, tvs on every hole, someone reviewing every shot......


    I just don't like viewers calling in. I don't agree with it. Others do. That is their opinion and I respect it.


    Tour players are supposed to have a good understanding of the rules. When uncertain they ask an official. Who then gives an answer. Player proceeds to play based on the answer given, which he deems to be correct. Joe Shmoo calls in saying player did not proceed correctly. Should player be penalized for proceeding under the pretense what he was told was a correct ruling? I don't think so. This is where I have my beef. Not sure if I was getting my point across earlier, but this is the simplest way I can think of to explain. Not sure if I was misunderstood but hope this helps to clear things up.
    Last edited by Big Johnny69; 12-23-2005 at 01:07 AM.
    "A life lived in fear of the new and the untried is not a life lived to its fullest." M.Pare 10/09/08

  30. #30
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    If a referee has been appointed by the Committee, his decision is final.

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