Frequency chart

[chieflabattblue]

Well hello again to all my friends in the frequency world.
BC Mist
If your clubs are at a linear on a FQ chart which is FLAT lined for :frequency matched: then you flex would be at a SLOPE of linear for flexes that would be stiffer in the 3 iron and more flexible as you progress towards the wedge ( therefore not linear matching for flexes) . So there fore you can not have both at a linear progression one or the other on a set of irons. As well you kick points will change dramatically by just looking at where the screening of the manufactures logos on the shafts. Tom wishom is only ONE person who wrote that article in his book..if you want to beleive it then you can..everybody has their own belief. He did this testing of a machine..since we are all not machines it to me atleast makes only more sense to find the TRUE actions of shafts in a variety on swings to the ball..for me If I hit a LOW kick point shaft and a HIGH shaft of the SAME company I can see the difference dramatically and I am not a machine or a book. We should find out what is more important to the individual before anything else..There is not set standard for all different frequency shafted companies if you beleive this youa re only fooling yourself and the others who you persay...Brunswick has the own caliberating device and from that the make THEIR standards from. Other companies has the own frequency machines and they are not the same caliberation as brunswick or the other different companies for finding frequencies. Since there is so many differnt companies out there that have different machines we can not agree on exact flex unless we caliberate the individual machines off the other caliberating device.. and even so when that is done our numbers would be differnt for measurements.
To Chieflongtee..my fellow Chief
I only wanted to reply to this forum as it pertained to FM shafts in the Rifle( Brunswick) category.. Someone who looking for their FQ chart but had no idea about their standard measure device and at what point is the lets say their "ABSOLUTE" main starting point... which everything is then scaled from..head weight .swingweight. insertion depth and length ..I find it a mazing that no one has asked me about this and just contined to be concerned about their own results..I am sure Mercury has their own starting point and etc etc..but Brunswick ahas the RIGHTS and if they are saying they have all of this they are doing it ILLEGALLY..(FQ balancing shafts and FQ flexes)

I hope I made myself clear if not I will try again in another way for all to understand on their needs.
Cheers once again

[BC MIST]

chieflabattblue,

I don’t mean to be insulting, however, I am having difficulty understanding some of your points and ASK for clarification if I have taken your intent incorrectly.

If your clubs are at a linear on a FQ chart which is FLAT lined for :frequency matched: then you flex would be at a SLOPE of linear for flexes that would be stiffer in the 3 iron and more flexible as you progress towards the wedge ( therefore not linear matching for flexes)
Why would the 3 iron be stiffer and the wedge more flexible? Whether I wish a flat lined linear set or a sloped lined linear set, the long iron shafts are going to be more flexible than the short, WITHOUT THE HEADS ON. In my flat lined set the difference in flexes will be smaller so that when the heads are mounted, the butt frequencies are the same.

So there fore you can not have both at a linear progression one or the other on a set of irons.
I don’t get it. The graph of the frequencies of my current set (301, 301, 301, 301, 301, 301, 301, 301) forms a straight line (LINEAR). The graph of another set (292, 296, 300, 304, 308, 312, 316, 320) forms a straight line (LINEAR). One is flat, one is sloped, but they are both LINEAR.

As well you kick points will change dramatically by just looking at where the screening of the manufactures logos on the shafts. Forgive my bluntness, but this is just wrong. The placement of the silk screened logos has nothing to do with kick point unless they are placed 18.5 inches from the tip. What do you mean by dramatically?

Perhaps a basic understanding of bend point AND kick point is needed here. Apply an equal force to BOTH ends of a golf shaft and find the location of the point on the shaft where maximum bending occurs. This is the BEND point. If the shaft is clamped at the butt end and a force is placed on the tip end, the point of maximum bending is the KICK point. The BEND point is roughly 40% from the tip and the KICK point is about 45% from the tip. The creators of DSFI, Dynacraft Shaft Fitting Index, Jeff Summitt and Jeff Jackson, measured the BEND and KICK points of hundreds of shafts and found that with both steel and with graphite shafts the MAXIMUM difference between a LOW kick point shaft and a HIGH kick point shaft, is 1.7”. Is this what you mean by dramatic? This very minimal difference in kick point has only a slight influence on trajectory. Perceptible, yes, but significant, no. Disagreeing with the engineers, researchers and scientists, (Tom Wishon, Jeff and Jeff, Dave Tutleman, John Kauffman, etc.,) who use robotic testing and electronic measuring devices to discover their findings is a bit much and to suggest, also, that human testing is more accurate that robotic is beyond comprehension.

for me If I hit a LOW kick point shaft and a HIGH shaft of the SAME company I can see the difference dramatically and I am not a machine or a book This is a 100% CORRECT observation, but, because your science is wrong, you may NOT conclude that there is a dramatic difference in trajectory. The Graffaloy ProCustom L/A cannot be compared to the Graffaloy Comp NT 65 X because they are completely different shafts. Different weight, different materials, different thicknesses/frequencies at the same point along the length of the shaft, and so on. It is inaccurate to compare apples to apples, how can you compare apples to oranges?

We should find out what is more important to the individual before anything else. On this we agree. The same club in the hands of 5 different golfers will perform in 5 different ways because of the infinite number of differences there are between 5 golfers and the way they swing..

There is not set standard for all different frequency shafted companies if you beleive this youa re only fooling yourself and the others who you persay...
There ought to be a set of standards for frequency, but there is not. And this is intentional and selfish for obvious reasons. However, while the machines used to measure frequency yield slightly different results, assuming the same clamp length, strength and tip weight, they are very, very close. I compared my Club Scout FA to the one at Golfworks and mine measured slightly stiffer, about 0.5% or 2 cpm’s on a 300 cpm shaft, an amount that no-one would be able to perceive when swinging.

Lastly, golfers and clubmakers should forget about kick point and be more concerned about the frequency or flex profile of the entire shaft, and/or the overall weight of a shaft. Two shafts with the same weight, same butt frequency and same bend/kick points, will cause a different trajectory if the tip frequency of one is 150 cpm's stiffer than the other. I know, I have and have used such shafts.

How many here profile their shafts? Besides you, Andre.

[Samick]

Hey guys, sorry to interupt your conversation, which is very interesting I might add. I am actually learning a few things today!

I know a little about custom fittings, but in a quest to know more, I have a couple questions if I may.

I guess (in my sheltered little world) there are two different beliefs in fitting people for shafts. One being like BC Mist to have a constant cpm in his shafts to get them to feel the same (I guess, speculating), and another that sets the frequency a certain set cpm apart, be it 4 or 5 cpms, to have a set match that way. Again......I'm no expert.

I believe that the custom club fitter I took my set to, softened the shafts a little in the short irons to try to give my set a constant feel. (TA3's with Rifle Flighted, 5.7) I do however had a pretty big gap in my irons (distance wise)....the 3 iron down to 7 rion are as follows, 210,200,190,180,165-170. Then all of a sudden I have a big jump down to my 8 iron that goes 150, 9 iron to 140-145, PW 130-135.

The 8 iron feels ok, no more stiffer or softer than the rest, but the distance seems off. The irons are relatively new (used for 1.5 seasons).

Also, my SW and Gap Wedge havent been fitted yet and have the stock shafts (stiff) and feel like a piece of 4x4......should I get rifles in a softer flex than my iron set, or the same flex, or stiffer???

Any thoughts?

ap_logan (aka, Mr Confused)

[BC MIST]

I guess (in my sheltered little world) there are two different beliefs in fitting people for shafts. One being like BC Mist to have a constant cpm in his shafts to get them to feel the same (I guess, speculating), and another that sets the frequency a certain set cpm apart, be it 4 or 5 cpms, to have a set match that way. Again......I'm no expert.

Nor is any one of us, here.
To me there is FEEL, as you wrote, and SWING FEEL. FEEL is when I pick up a club and waggle it back and forth. A set with a constant swingweight will FEEL the same. I believe this is the first moment of inertia. What I want in my set is SWING FEEL meaning that when I swing a 3 iron or a 9 iron, they FEEL the same. This is the second moment of inertia or MOI. When I waggle my MOI matched set, they do feel quite different as the 3 has a lower SW (C8) than my gap wedge (D4) This is normal in a MOI matched set. One can have a flat lined or sloped lined, frequency matched set, MOI matched OR swingweight matched. One engineer has written that a golfer whose transition effort and time to impact from transition is constant would be better off with a flat lined set whereas a golfer who has a longer swing with a 3 iron than a PW or whose time to impact varies, would be better off with a sloped set. In an email to Tom Wishon about which kind of slope is best, his response to me was that it did not matter. The one that a golfer perceives to be better, is. Interesting.

I believe that the custom club fitter I took my set to, softened the shafts a little in the short irons to try to give my set a constant feel. (TA3's with Rifle Flighted, 5.7) I do however had a pretty big gap in my irons (distance wise)....the 3 iron down to 7 rion are as follows, 210,200,190,180,165-170. Then all of a sudden I have a big jump down to my 8 iron that goes 150, 9 iron to 140-145, PW 130-135.

This hard to explain without examining your clubs or watching you swing. Perhaps the answer is as simple as getting the lofts checked to see that the 8 is not more lofted than it should be. The flex of the shaft has very little to do with the distance the ball goes. Is it ball position? angle of attack? Maybe because the short irons are your scoring clubs, you just SUBCONSCIOUSLY swing a little easier.

Also, my SW and Gap Wedge havent been fitted yet and have the stock shafts (stiff) and feel like a piece of 4x4......should I get rifles in a softer flex than my iron set, or the same flex, or stiffer???

Opinions will vary, but, if your club maker could profile the shafts of your 8 and 9 irons, he should be able to match the shafts of your new wedges to these two. Some golfers/clubmakers will say that the wedge shafts should be stiffer than the clubs preceeding then(this is just tradition) and some will say, "make them the same as the 8,9, but stiffer than the 3 to 7. " I prefer softer short irons shafts than traditional, which is what I have in my flat lined set solely because they give me more FEEL, which may or may not mean anything. Some golfers like shafts with, "no wiggle in them," I like a little wiggle, er, in my shafts, that is.

[clubfixer]

Hello all! A newbie here. I must agree there is a wealth of information shared on this subject and an additional one that the I would like to ask BC and others.

Speaking to the 100+ gram grips you stated you use in this thread. Could you share a little insight into the counterbalancing of your clubs? PCS just printed an article that Golfsmith is taking counterbalancing to a higher level... I recall reading about this subject in regard to the Golden Bear doing something along this line in days gone by.

I am very curious about the real deal here, although I don't speak Physics ;-) Does any one know how much weight actually does what when it comes to counterbalancing?

Additionally, I would like to commend all of you for the control you display when personal opinions hit near personal feelings.

[BC MIST]

Hello all! A newbie here. I must agree there is a wealth of information shared on this subject and an additional one that the I would like to ask BC and others.

Speaking to the 100+ gram grips you stated you use in this thread. Could you share a little insight into the counterbalancing of your clubs? PCS just printed an article that Golfsmith is taking counterbalancing to a higher level... I recall reading about this subject in regard to the Golden Bear doing something along this line in days gone by.

I am very curious about the real deal here, although I don't speak Physics ;-) Does any one know how much weight actually does what when it comes to counterbalancing?

Additionally, I would like to commend all of you for the control you display when personal opinions hit near personal feelings.

I do not have 102 gram grips to counterbalance my clubs, but, because I use a single axis swing which has a palm grip in the right hand, I want a non-tapered grip. I use 2" wide tape to build up my grips at different sections, wrap the tape around the shaft and the wraps vary from 26 layers in the lower part to 8 layers in the upper. A Lamkin Crossline Midsize grip is stretched over all of this.

This would normally make the clubs FEEL very light (low swingweight), however, because my right hand is about 1.5 inches farther down the shaft with my single axis palm grip, than if I were using a traditional Vardon grip, I make all of my clubs 1.5" longer. The effect of the palm grip farther down the shaft makes all of my clubs play 1.5 inches shorter as my right wrist hinge is the fulcrum of a lever and the effective length of the club is from there to the heel of the head. By making the clubs 1.5" longer, I am effectively returning them to traditional length. Hope that this makes sense.

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=Chieflongtee]Just measured a set of Clevelands TA2 shafted with Dynamic Gold shafts. Are these ever nice looking clubs. Anyway here are the frequencies with a 5 inch clamp and clubs without grips. Frequency wise these are pretty similar to Rifles 6.0. Now they could play differently depending on the Rifles and Dynamic flex points.

3=311
4=316
5=321
6=326
7=331
8=336
9=338
PW=343
54 wedge= 334
60 wedge= 336

Gave this some thought. Actually the Rifles 6.0 will play a little stiffer as they were measured with the grips on which has a dampening effect equivalent to 6-10 cycles per minute. So I guess the Dynamic stiff would be closer to the 5.5.

[BC MIST]

Just measured a set of Clevelands TA2 shafted with Dynamic Gold shafts. Are these ever nice looking clubs. Anyway here are the frequencies with a 5 inch clamp and clubs without grips. Frequency wise these are pretty similar to Rifles 6.0. Now they could play differently depending on the Rifles and Dynamic flex points.

Do you also believe that flex/bend/kick point has a "dramatic" affect on trajectory, contrary to the views of Tom Wishon, Jeff Jackson, Jeff Summit at al?

[Chieflongtee]

Additionally, I would like to commend all of you for the control you display when personal opinions hit near personal feelings.

Agreed and welcome to the forum.

[Kilroy]

Additionally, I would like to commend all of you for the control you display when personal opinions hit near personal feelings.

Me too. This kind of comment is exactly the impression we want to make here. Thanks guys!

[Chieflongtee]

Do you also believe that flex/bend/kick point has a "dramatic" affect on trajectory, contrary to the views of Tom Wishon, Jeff Jackson, Jeff Summit at al?

Only one way to know. Shaft profiling or deflection board or NF. Other factors also to consider are angle of attack and shaft tip. As you know an iron shaft will never flex as much as a wood shaft because of the larger tip size and shorter beam length. I have used many different shafts and never noticed any dramatic change in ball flight. Only robotic testing along with a launch monitor could answer that question.

[BC MIST]

Only one way to know. Shaft profiling or deflection board or NF. Other factors also to consider are angle of attack and shaft tip. As you know an iron shaft will never flex as much as a wood shaft because of the larger tip size and shorter beam length. I have used many different shafts and never noticed any dramatic change in ball flight. Only robotic testing along with a launch monitor could answer that question.

Agree and presumably Tom, Jeff and others have have done this, hence their conclusion.

The other thing that bothers me is the term "kick point." The suggestion is that there is a POINT on the shaft that magically kicks the head forward at great speed like the high speed hinges that the right elbow and right wrist joints are. Not true. The shaft bends just a little and along almost its entire length. It does not kick.

The speed of the head through impact is determined by the golfer who tries to hold the angle until inertia straightens the right arm wrist and elbow joints and the faster the golfer can do this the higher will be the club head speed. That is why the flex of the shaft has relatively little to do with club head speed and everything to do with direction.

[rhh7]

Depends on the shafts. Some shafts such as the KGS will all come in at the same frequency just by cutting the butt to final playing length providing the heads weights are constant(7g heavier per club for example) and the playing lengths constant(1/2 per club) Other shafts will require more work. A little bit of both butt and tip trimming. You are correct. If the 3 iron is 301 and the wedges 329 then you are playing with clubs with 2 full flex difference(if we assume that 10 cpm is one flex). BC Mist also plays with a set with the same frequency across the set. His set is also MOI matched instead of swingweighted matched which means that the force he has to put on the swing is the same across the set but that is another topic. My set is at 292 across the set. The clubs don't feel soft. I am no gorilla but I am not a wuss either. I hit the 5 iron 190 when a shot is well struck(of course the loft on my clubs are very strong)

If I want to build a single frequency set of irons, would the KGS shaft make more sense to use than a True Temper Dynamic? If so, which specific KGS shaft is closest to the dynamic in weight and frequency? Thanks a million! ... Robert

[Chieflongtee]

I just like the KGS because they are sorted by frequency by Jim at Konagolf. The Dynamics will yield the same results if they are sorted by weight. To give you an answer to your second question I would have to measure the butt frequency of the Dynamic. You could ask Golfworks to measure the Dynamic frequency for you. The KGS has 300 cpms raw frequency.

[rhh7]

I have spent hours watching tape of Moe Norman hitting balls. What an incredible ball-striker he was!

Have read these threads and this article over and over for the past few days:

http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/frequency.php?ref=

It is finally starting to make sense to me.

According to Tutleman, a Dynamic steel shaft in a 37.5" 5-iron will have a frequency of 310cpms in R-Flex, and 323cpms in S-Flex. The tip trim difference between the two flexes is 2 inches, therefore a tip sensitivity of 13/2 = 6.5cpms per inch. Assuming 1/2 inch increments in club length, and 7 gram increments in head weight, the club to club frequency variation in an untrimmed set would be .0063 x 310cpms, or 1.953cpms, using the R-flex shafts.

This variation has to be eliminated to produce a constant frequency set. So, each shorter club in the set must be trimmed 1.953cpms/6.5cpms per inch = 0.300 inches less than the preceding club.

So, to produce a set of irons with a constant frequency of 310cpms:

club tip-trim
3-iron 2.6 inches
4-iron 2.3 inches
5-iron 2.0 inches
6-iron 1.7 inches
7-iron 1.4 inches
8-iron 1.1 inches
9-iron 0.8 inches
PW 0.5 inches

Do I understand this correctly?

[jvincent]

I think you got your trim backwards.

I think want to trim the 3i the least amount and the PW the most otherwise you will have a set with a very stiff 3i and a very soft PW.

It's also very dependant on the shafts having the same properties, which is not always the case.

[rhh7]

I think you got your trim backwards.

I think want to trim the 3i the least amount and the PW the most otherwise you will have a set with a very stiff 3i and a very soft PW.

It's also very dependant on the shafts having the same properties, which is not always the case.

Say, I really enjoy your posts. Do you hit the ball like Moe Norman? He was one of my all time golf heroes.

That said, I still think you have it backwards. This is such a fascinating subject to me.

[jvincent]

No Moe Norman type skills here. I have tried his method though and I played reasonably well with it.

I think I have the trim correct. In a traditional sloped set, where 3i has the lowest frequency and PW has the highest, you would trim the most from the PW and the least from the 3i going in 1/2 increments.

For a single frequency set, or for a flatter slope in general, assuming you want to keep the long irons at "normal" stiffness, you'd need to reduce the increment of trim per club, but you'd still have more trim from the PW than the 3i otherwise your 3i ends up being mega-stiff.

[rhh7]

No Moe Norman type skills here. I have tried his method though and I played reasonably well with it.

I think I have the trim correct. In a traditional sloped set, where 3i has the lowest frequency and PW has the highest, you would trim the most from the PW and the least from the 3i going in 1/2 increments.

For a single frequency set, or for a flatter slope in general, assuming you want to keep the long irons at "normal" stiffness, you'd need to reduce the increment of trim per club, but you'd still have more trim from the PW than the 3i otherwise your 3i ends up being mega-stiff.

Let's try it from another angle:

Take the set of 8 Dynamic steel shafts, do not tip trim, butt trim only. Assume a 37.5" 5-iron, 7 grams difference between each clubhead, and 1/2 inch difference in length between each club, you would get the following frequencies:


5-iron 297.00 cpms
6-iron 298.87 cpms
7-iron 300.74 cpms
8-iron 302.61 cpms
9-iron 304.48 cpms
PW 306.35 cpms
GW 308.22 cpms
SW 310.09 cpms

The SW ends up one full flex stiffer than the 5-iron. What does this suggest as to the trim required to bring them into balance? I admit I am confused.

[jvincent]

Ultimately to get a single frequency set you need to do a combination of tip and butt trim.

I think your original math for variable tip trim was correct, just in the wrong direction, i.e. it should have looked like the following:

PW 2.6 inches
9-iron 2.3 inches
8-iron 2.0 inches
7-iron 1.7 inches
6-iron 1.4 inches
5-iron 1.1 inches
4-iron 0.8 inches
3-iron 0.5 inches

[Chieflongtee]

Let's see we can unconfuse. Providing the heads are 7 g apart and 1/2 inch difference in club length and that the raw shafts have all the same raw frequency then you will have a set with the same frequency across the set. If you use parallel shaft tips only. Taper tip shafts already have a sloped built into the shafts and require no tip trimming.

[BC MIST]

Ultimately to get a single frequency set you need to do a combination of tip and butt trim.

I think your original math for variable tip trim was correct, just in the wrong direction, i.e. it should have looked like the following:

PW 2.6 inches
9-iron 2.3 inches
8-iron 2.0 inches
7-iron 1.7 inches
6-iron 1.4 inches
5-iron 1.1 inches
4-iron 0.8 inches
3-iron 0.5 inches

How about this approach? Set of irons, 3 to PW. Normal frequency 290, 295, 300, 305, 310, 315, 320, 325. Nothing tip trimmed from the 3 and a bunch from the PW to achieve this sloped freequency.

Now, to get them all, say 305, I must trim MORE from the 3 iron to make it stiffer than 290, and I must trim LESS from the PW to make it more flexible than 325.

Conclusion? More tip trim from the 3 and little, if anything from the PW. When slope FM'ing a set, a club maker normally starts at the 3 and works to the PW. When I single FM my clubs, I ALWAYS start with the PW, the hardest club to get a softer than normal frequency with, and then work toward the 3. Does this make sense?

[jvincent]

Conclusion? More tip trim from the 3 and little, if anything from the PW. When slope FM'ing a set, a club maker normally starts at the 3 and works to the PW. When I single FM my clubs, I ALWAYS start with the PW, the hardest club to get a softer than normal frequency with, and then work toward the 3. Does this make sense?

Yep. When I switched rrh7's numbers around I think I got the same effect, i.e. more trim from the 3i than normal and less from the PW but I didn't have a specific frequency in mind.

Question for you BC, do you find the stiffer than normal 3i harder to play?

[rhh7]

Yep. When I switched rrh7's numbers around I think I got the same effect, i.e. more trim from the 3i than normal and less from the PW but I didn't have a specific frequency in mind.

Question for you BC, do you find the stiffer than normal 3i harder to play?

Constant frequency, zero slope

"For this, we need to tip-trim to ELIMINATE the 1.8 cpm per club. That means we do more tip-trimming on the longer clubs; this is backwards from the way we usually think of tip trimming. Each longer club needs to be trimmed an additional

• 1.8 cpm per club / 5.5 cpm per inch = 0.33 inches per club

For all practical purposes, this is 1/3".
It is worth noting that Paul Nickles [NICK] has told me that 1/4" is a good rule of thumb for a first cut at a constant frequency. The difference between 1/3" and 1/4" per club is at its maximum in a 9-iron, where the difference is 2/3", or 3.6 cpm. This is right at the limit of what a golfer can feel, so the difference probably isn't important. If you tune the frequencies with a frequency meter, you can tell the difference -- but of course you wouldn't need a rule of thumb.
Suppose we want the same 5-iron frequency as above, so we know to tip-trim the 5-iron by 1.8". Then our tip-trim chart would be:

• 1I 2I 3I 4I 5I 6I 7I 8I 9I
  3.1" 2.8" 2.5" 2.1" 1.8" 1.5" 1.1" 0.8" 0.5"

This time we have enough tip to make the long irons flexible enough, but we probably don't have room on the butt to make the long irons long enough. For instance, consider that a 1-iron is usually 39.5" long. Imagine we bought a shaft whose raw length is the common 41". Once we tip-trim 3.1", we are left with 37.9" Now, suppose the clubhead's bore ends an inch above the ground. That means we need a cut shaft length of

• 39.5"-1" = 38.5"

So we're 0.6" too short. We may have to leave a little more tip, and go for a slightly softer 1-iron. "


I took a terrible fall on the parking lot leaving work today. Slammed my upper spine, neck, and the back of my head into the ice. Lucky I did not break my neck! Now I have a headache, and I am more confused than ever.



Thanks ever so much for all of the trouble you guys take to make thoughtful replies.

[BC MIST]

Yep. When I switched rrh7's numbers around I think I got the same effect, i.e. more trim from the 3i than normal and less from the PW but I didn't have a specific frequency in mind.

Question for you BC, do you find the stiffer than normal 3i harder to play?

Not at all. I did notice the lighter feel when waggled, because of the MOI, and the short irons felt softer and heavier, which I like, but the stiffness was/is not a factor.

I attempt to swing with the same effort with all clubs and perhaps that is why I enjoy the swing feel of both the 550M's and the 560's so much. What I did differently and I don't know if this has of any significance, but the 550M's were butt FM'ed to 301 with Wishon's Interflexx MID "S" shafts and the 560's with the Interflexx MID "R" shafts. Wishon's profiling shows that the tip, mid and butt frequencies of the "R" and the "S" respectively are:
219 305 905
233 320 900

Notice how the "R" tip is understandably more flexible but that 15 cpm's is less than a full flex for that area of the shaft. But, the R is actually stiffer in the butt section than is the "S" shaft. This possibly explains why I don't notice any difference in feel between the 550's and the 560's. While the "R's" are for 65 to 75 mph swingers, the "S's" are for 75 to 85 mph players, so says the catalogue. Reality says that the R's and S's are almost identical. I do, however, enjoy the shafts, or maybe it is the snakeskin graphics.

I still believe that the basic contribution of the shaft is FEEL and TRAJECTORY and LOOKS, of course.

[careyhrrs67]

Hey Chief,,,did you trim these clubs according to the manufactorers trim chart,,ifso, you got to have a swing speed of over 110 with a 5iron to keepem straight,,my ideal cpm's are these

3- 268
4- 272
5- 276
6- 280
7- 284
8- 288
9- 292
pw- 296

Now get this,,,I hit my pw 150yds
my 6 is at 195 to 200yds
BUT,,,im deadly accurate and been shootin in the 60's
I used to trim mine by what the manufactories standards, WHICH IS A JOKE
I go by cpm's only!!!!! i have a master matcher frequency machine with a 5" clamp
it doesn't matter what clamp or shaft or machine you use,,
whatever you use to get a frequency for any stick,,you go by what the frequency is!! and adjust the numbers by the actual ball flight!!!!!!!!
example,, i started with my 6,,I was hooking it,,,so i measured it and got 296 (with the grip off) at 38" which is my length for that club,,, i took an exact same shaft,UNCUT, and trimmed it down 10cpm's at 286,and it was hitting it alot better,,so i tweaked it until i got my exact cpm for that club,,did the rest the same way,,so whatever type of equipt..you use,,,use for every club you play with!!!

[Chieflongtee]

and adjust the numbers by the actual ball flight!!!!!!!!
example,, i started with my 6,,I was hooking it,,,so i measured it and got 296 (with the grip off) at 38" which is my length for that club,,, i took an exact same shaft,UNCUT, and trimmed it down 10cpm's at 286,and it was hitting it alot better,,so i tweaked it until i got my exact cpm for that club,,did the rest the same way,,so whatever type of equipt..you use,,,use for every club you play with!!!

That takes a lot of tweaking but is the right way to do it. But remember that is butt frequency only.There is one than one factor involved here such as toe droop,(the effect of stiffnesss on lie angles) shaft material(graphite being lighter will yield higher frequencies) and swing type

What type of shafts are you talking about?

[careyhrrs67]

Iam using truetemper SL R300's,,Now as for toe droop,,I was still drawing just barely left but the shots was at the pin,and drew about 3 to 4 steps left,,so i just did what i knew to fix that,,i spined the shaft,marked it, THEN i would frequency the shaft with the spine at 12 oclockpos..i fixed the slight draw by refrequencing withe spine at the 9 or 3 oclock pos. since my machine frequency's the shaft oscilating up and down not side to side,,,AND YES,,,you do get different results(in ball flight) if you don't align the spine correctly in the frequency machine,,theoretically you just got to know how the ball flight is when you do the process wrong and right...for the droop,,to minimize it just align the spine at 9 and 3 when you frequency the shaft,,, but YOU MUST orient it the same way when gluing the head on,,some one told me today at golfsmith that i was doing it all wrong,,the idiot told me i needed to do it with a 250g weight,,,i laughed and said im not using that weight to hit the ball with D.A. im using the clubhead to frequency the club/s, after you frequency the sticks,,try two things,,find the spine,,now you frequency it with the spine at 12 and then at 9 or3,,ok toe droop relies on where the spine is when you put it in the head??? if the spine is at 12,,the shaft will cause the head to rise somewhat at impact cause the lie is to be slightly upright, because the spine is holding the lie pretty stable through impact!!,,now if the spine is at 9 or 3 then the nbp is now what is holding the lie of the head and its just not strong enough to keep the head from drooping through impact,,,you follow me.....this is the cause of toe droop