Frequency chart

[woodlotjon]

I am looking for a Rifle FCM Chart. Does anyone have one that could be emailed to me?

[dbleber]

I am looking for a Rifle FCM Chart. Does anyone have one that could be emailed to me?

I would like to see that as well, if you have one please post.

[Chieflongtee]

Can't post. It is propietary.

[woodlotjon]

Found one at the Royal Precision site

[Chieflongtee]

Found one at the Royal Precision site

Don't know if that is going to help much as when someone looks at the RP slope numbers, they need to understand that these are measured not at beam length, but at raw length, and with a 2 1/2" clamp and a 285g weight.

[Chieflongtee]

Anyway this I can post. I recently measured a set of irons with FCM 6.0 shafts with a club scout. 5 inch clamp and at final playing length. So here goes:




Club# Club Length Frequency
3 39 308
4 38.5 314
5 38 321
6 37.5 325
7 37 328
8 36.5 336
9 36 340
PW 35.5 347

[Big Johnny69]

Am I reading this corret Chief? To me that seems like an inconsistent set. I'm still learning about freq' matching, so I may be wrong. But wouldn't you want something with more similar cpm between clubs, say like 4 cpm per club, as opposed to a difference of 6 between one club, seven between another and three between another. What kind of performance would this create?

[Chieflongtee]

I did these quickly Geoff with the grips on so I could just get a ball park figure. 1-2 cpm is no big deal. My set has the same frequency across the set. The set posted above is an OEM set. Keep in mind that weight affects frequency and that all clubheads have +- tolerances. So when shafts are installed at the factory the 'assembler' is not using a frequency meter to check each and everyone of them. It is mostly cut and glue. It would be just to costly to check each and everyone of them.4 cpm per club across the set is what the industry has been doing but you could make it 2 cpm or whatever you choose. I myself prefer one frequency as all clubs have the same stiffness across the set. In other words if you build a set with a 4 cpm slope the long irons will be soft and the short irons will be like telephone poles.

[Chieflongtee]

Am I reading this corret Chief? To me that seems like an inconsistent set. I'm still learning about freq' matching, so I may be wrong. But wouldn't you want something with more similar cpm between clubs, say like 4 cpm per club, as opposed to a difference of 6 between one club, seven between another and three between another. What kind of performance would this create?

I once ran across a set where the 9 iron frequency was softer than the 8 iron. I am not knocking down OEMS. They make quality heads and the clubheads are well thought out. However mass production defeats the purpose....

[woodlotjon]

I just spent a week at Golfsmith in Texas. We spent a couple of days talking about frequency matching. They test raw shafts at 20", 30" and 40" from the tip. We used a 5" clamp with a 205 gram weight. From there they place them in ascending order where the softest is the 3 iron and the stiffest is the wedge shaft. The shafts are then trimmed and remeasured. This can't be done with OEM since they are already trimmed and glued.

[Big Johnny69]

I myself prefer one frequency as all clubs have the same stiffness across the set. In other words if you build a set with a 4 cpm slope the long irons will be soft and the short irons will be like telephone poles.

So to get the same freq' throughout a set would you be tip trimming the long irons and butt trimming the short irons to match freq'. Like I said, I am still new to this and trying to figure it out.

For an example Chief:

a set has a 3 iron cpm of 301 with a 4 cpm difference between clubs in the set. So at 4 cpm the short irons are going to be extremely stiff?
So going by what I know about clubs, tip trimming makes shafts stiffer so I would guess that is the only way to match freq' within a set. Tip trim accordingly to match the freq' of the shortest iron.
And having the same freq' throughout the set will give you the same flex feel throughout the set?

[Chieflongtee]

I just spent a week at Golfsmith in Texas. We spent a couple of days talking about frequency matching. They test raw shafts at 20", 30" and 40" from the tip. We used a 5" clamp with a 205 gram weight. From there they place them in ascending order where the softest is the 3 iron and the stiffest is the wedge shaft. The shafts are then trimmed and remeasured. This can't be done with OEM since they are already trimmed and glued.

Tapered shafts will do that. Again tapered shafts are for mass production. They come in and then they are simply cut to final palying length. I would suspect that they could already be cut to final playing length as well.

[woodlotjon]

One secret is to tip trim less than the shaft maker suggests. If they want a 1/2" trim progression through the set start at a 1/4" progression. It will yield a softer flex and a less steep slope when finished.
I'm fasinated by this aspect of club fitting and am trying to sort out the differences between methods and frequency charts. It would be easy if a 6.0 was the same flex with all measurement methods.

[Chieflongtee]

So to get the same freq' throughout a set would you be tip trimming the long irons and butt trimming the short irons to match freq'. Like I said, I am still new to this and trying to figure it out.

For an example Chief:

a set has a 3 iron cpm of 301 with a 4 cpm difference between clubs in the set. So at 4 cpm the short irons are going to be extremely stiff?
So going by what I know about clubs, tip trimming makes shafts stiffer so I would guess that is the only way to match freq' within a set. Tip trim accordingly to match the freq' of the shortest iron.
And having the same freq' throughout the set will give you the same flex feel throughout the set?

Depends on the shafts. Some shafts such as the KGS will all come in at the same frequency just by cutting the butt to final playing length providing the heads weights are constant(7g heavier per club for example) and the playing lengths constant(1/2 per club) Other shafts will require more work. A little bit of both butt and tip trimming. You are correct. If the 3 iron is 301 and the wedges 329 then you are playing with clubs with 2 full flex difference(if we assume that 10 cpm is one flex). BC Mist also plays with a set with the same frequency across the set. His set is also MOI matched instead of swingweighted matched which means that the force he has to put on the swing is the same across the set but that is another topic. My set is at 292 across the set. The clubs don't feel soft. I am no gorilla but I am not a wuss either. I hit the 5 iron 190 when a shot is well struck(of course the loft on my clubs are very strong)

[woodlotjon]

Tell me more about MOI matching. I have never reguarded swing weight as a huge deal.

[buckylasek]

Swingweight is more a question of feel, MOI is quite more subject to the Center of gravity.

[jvincent]

Tell me more about MOI matching. I have never reguarded swing weight as a huge deal.

Oversimplifying immensely, swingweight is a measurement of the STATIC (note the emphasis) force/torque of the club relative to a balance point 14" from the butt of the club. The scale, letter followed by number, was arbitrarily chosen.

MOI is a measure of the DYNAMIC, i.e. in motion, force of the club as measured from the butt end, or at least very near to it.

For a really good explanation, check out Dave Tutelman's page.

http://tutelman.com/golfclubs/swingweight.php?ref=

[BC MIST]

Oversimplifying immensely, swingweight is a measurement of the STATIC (note the emphasis) force/torque of the club relative to a balance point 14" from the butt of the club. The scale, letter followed by number, was arbitrarily chosen.

MOI is a measure of the DYNAMIC, i.e. in motion, force of the club as measured from the butt end, or at least very near to it.

My simple mind says that a set of irons matched based on them being in motion, is more significant than if they are sitting at rest on some sort of scale. A set made at a SW of D1 may feel the same when I waggle them, but they do not feel the same when I swing them, nor do they square up at the same point in the downswing. This means that I must have 8 different ball positions for my 8 irons, which is achieveable, but increases the margin for error.

The clubs of an MOI matched set all feel the same to me when I swing them, but there is an obvious difference when I waggle them, as the longer irons have a lighter SW and the shot irons a heavier SW, but I don't hit the ball in the waggle.

Now, if the golfer tries to start his downswing with the same effort each time, and has roughly the same length backswing with all clubs, then an MOI matched set, where ALL clubs have the SAME butt frequency, would seem to be advantageous. I am sure there are scientific reasons why MOST golfers play with clubs that are LADIES flex in the long irons and run to R or S flex in the short irons, but I don't know what they are. I just don't know why, if I swing down with the same force, that I should use shafts whose frequencies are all different. To me they should all be the same.

Being tested years ago by Eric Cook and his single frequency matching system, he came up with a recommended frequency for me and when I assembled my current set of Wishon irons I made them the equivalent frequency with a 5" clamp (301 cpm's). This shaft(Wishon Interflexx S) and head (Wishon 550C and 550M) combination, combined with the SF and MOI matching, has certainly helped my consistency. The process of doing this is quite labour intensive as all components have to be weighed, balance points determined, head weights adjusted and so on, however, it was been worth the effort.

Dave Tutelman suggests that a set of irons built to a swingweight difference of .5 between clubs, yeilds an MOI matched set. Interestingly, the specs for my set were all mathematically calculated before assembly, and the set was MOI matched to within .25%(Wishon says that a set is matched when all clubs are withing 1% to 1.5% of each other) and yet the swingweights are NOT .5 apart. Respectively, they are C8, C9.6, D0.4, D1.2, D2.3, D3.1, D3.9, D3.9.

[jvincent]

Dave Tutelman suggests that a set of irons built to a swingweight difference of .5 between clubs, yeilds an MOI matched set. Interestingly, the specs for my set were all mathematically calculated before assembly, and the set was MOI matched to within .25%(Wishon says that a set is matched when all clubs are withing 1% to 1.5% of each other) and yet the swingweights are NOT .5 apart. Respectively, they are C8, C9.6, D0.4, D1.2, D2.3, D3.1, D3.9, D3.9.

BC, if I remember correctly, Dave's 0.5 swingweight point guideline was for a "standard" set of lengths and notionally standard head weights. Since your clubs are set up for your single axis swing, I wouldn't be surprised if that threw off the approximation.

[BC MIST]

BC, if I remember correctly, Dave's 0.5 swingweight point guideline was for a "standard" set of lengths and notionally standard head weights. Since your clubs are set up for your single axis swing, I wouldn't be surprised if that threw off the approximation.

Good point. Because I flattened all of my clubs 3* to 4* and because my grip weight is 102 grams, the MOI would seriously be changed. I am unconcerned about the larger difference in SW as it is just a number and unimportant anyway, at least for a "swinger."

BTW: You will be glad to know that I just switched from the 550C's in my 4,5,6 irons, to 550M's. What great taste we have !!!

[jvincent]

BTW: You will be glad to know that I just switched from the 550C's in my 4,5,6 irons, to 550M's. What great taste we have !!!

A fine decision IMHO.

[doglezard]

found this go to :
www.eagarsports.com (scroll down till u see CLUBFITTING SOFTWARE then go to CLUBFITTING COMPUTER SOFTWARE PROGRAM ( 5 ) SROLL DOWN TILL U SEE RIFLE SHAFTS AND PRINT IT .

[TourIQ]

I just spent a week at Golfsmith in Texas. We spent a couple of days talking about frequency matching. They test raw shafts at 20", 30" and 40" from the tip. We used a 5" clamp with a 205 gram weight. From there they place them in ascending order where the softest is the 3 iron and the stiffest is the wedge shaft. The shafts are then trimmed and remeasured. This can't be done with OEM since they are already trimmed and glued.

Hi woodlotjon

This can't be done for another reason my most OEM's. For steel shafts in irons they use taper tip shafts that cannot be tip trimmed to adjust for frequency.

That is why when I buy OEM, I ream out the hosel to accept parallel tipped shafts.

[TourIQ]

Respectively, they are C8, C9.6, D0.4, D1.2, D2.3, D3.1, D3.9, D3.9.

Hi BC MIST

What swt. scale do you have to measure that level of precision to 0.1 resolution?
Are you using one of the old Ohaus digital units? That is what I have in my shop.

[Chieflongtee]

Just measured a set of Clevelands TA2 shafted with Dynamic Gold shafts. Are these ever nice looking clubs. Anyway here are the frequencies with a 5 inch clamp and clubs without grips. Frequency wise these are pretty similar to Rifles 6.0. Now they could play differently depending on the Rifles and Dynamic flex points.

3=311
4=316
5=321
6=326
7=331
8=336
9=338
PW=343
54 wedge= 334
60 wedge= 336

All and all a constant 5 cpm slope across the set except for the odd ball 9 iron????.
wedges are probably softer because of their heavier weight. I'll get back later with club lengths.

[BC MIST]

Hi BC MIST

What swt. scale do you have to measure that level of precision to 0.1 resolution?
Are you using one of the old Ohaus digital units? That is what I have in my shop.

The swingweights are mathematically calculated and do not come from a swingweight scale.

[chieflabattblue]

Gentlemen..
You are understanding what frequency is which is a shaft band on a shaft. If you order lets say a set of rifles ( these are the only ones that are frequency matched by the way) 5.5...if you follow you so called instructions I will guarantee that they will not be 5.5 in thew finished product. There are many factors that you are not aware of..for example you ordered shafts from rifle at a certain degree of strength and you do not know all of the characteristics of your of heads you are putting them into.. you must know in advance what brunswick is basing their standard of frequency to on a certain length of golf club...hosel length...insertion length..swingweight....then once you that then you can do the scale to find out what exactly shafts you have to order to get to your desired results..because your hosel lengths are all different..I just giving you a crash result/course about true FM shafts. As far as Eric cook and BC Mist have set up BC Mist golf clubs to be flat lined at a constant linear frequency which can be no problem...but the real problem would be that BC Mist's kick points would not be a constant linear..which I know BC Mist would want..or atleast I hope...that is why Rifle is offering new blanks shafts for people wanting all this for themselves so they can finally have a true set of 5.0 5.5 6.0...ets etc that matched for them. This might sound a little "too technical" for some people ...but I am just giving you little information about a true FM shafts suited for the individuals.

Till the next reply...enjoy

[BC MIST]

As far as Eric cook and BC Mist have set up BC Mist golf clubs to be flat lined at a constant linear frequency which can be no problem...but the real problem would be that BC Mist's kick points would not be a constant linear..which I know BC Mist would want..or atleast I hope

Need some clarification about the above.

If I use 8 identical shafts to build a set of irons, the kick point would then be the exact same distance form the tip of the shaft, hence, it would be both linear AND horizontal, meaning that the "kick" would occur, the same distance from the ball. Now, if I trim .5" from the tip to frequency match a set in the traditional manner, this kick point would occur at varying distances from the tip of the shaft or from the ball. While it may still be linear, it is NOT horizontal, but oblique.

In my set of single frequency matched clubs, most of the trimming was from the butt end, meaning that the kick points are more or less horizontal.

(1) Why would my kick points NOT be linear?
(2) What affect does "kick" point have on the flight of the ball.
(3) With my SFM irons, how will my ball flight be different from the norm?


From Tom Wishon: He says that the greatest difference between a high and low bend/kick point shaft is about 2", AND, that the maximum difference in trajectory is about 1 degree, barely noticeable, so kick point is a "MINOR" factor in trajectory. Secondly, he says that kick point is a MEDIUM factor in FEEL, because a more tip flexible shaft can be felt moving into impact, AND, will make a solid contact FEEL better. Kick point is NOT a factor in distance.

Changing BOTH the flex of a shaft AND the kick point MAY affect the trajectory fractionally more.

From my questions above, #2 has been answered. (Next to nothing). From #3, my short irons MAY fly fractionally higher, but the difference may be imperceptible. Having said this, what does it matter if my kick points are not linear, #1.

The factors that affect trajectory are club head loft and angle of attack, so IMO, kick point is unimportant.

[Chieflongtee]

Gentlemen..
You are understanding what frequency is which is a shaft band on a shaft. If you order lets say a set of rifles ( these are the only ones that are frequency matched by the way)
Till the next reply...enjoy

Not so dear chief labattblue. The Mercury Savage were frequency matched until they decided not to make them anymore. Fortunately a company out there makes frequency matched stepless shafts for a fraction of the price. The name is Femco. As you know you guys carry some of their shafts. They are also manufactured for certain distributors namely Kona. Kona carries them under the name KGS, These are also curvature matched. Read more about it.

http://www.fstgolfshafts.com/trimming.php
Curvature Matching
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.fstgolfshafts.com/curve_match.php
Consistency in steel shafts is comprised of two main components: specifications and bend profile. Shafts with similar specifications are generally thought to be consistent with one another. But to be truly uniform, those two shafts must also bend in the same manner.

More than just “kick-point,” shafts need to have exactly the same bend profile along the entire shaft to be considered consistent with each other. For example, hanging a five pound weight from the end of two shafts with identical specs may cause the ends of both to bend three inches.

These shafts, however, are not necessarily consistent with one another as they might be bending in different places along the lengths of the shafts. Multiple tests with a curvature adapted deflection board have shown that FST’s steel shafts have bend profiles that are consistent within a model line. This creates and unprecedented uniformity in FST’s curvature matched shafts.



Because a shaft’s bend profile relates directly to what a golfer feels when swinging the club, shafts with a consistent bend profile will feel the same and impart consistent ball flight patterns from club to club. With the kind of consistent feel in FST’s curvature matched shafts, the golfer will be able to spend more time perfecting his/her swing without having to worry about variations occurring within the shafts themselves.

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=chieflabattblue]Gentlemen..
You are understanding what frequency is which is a shaft band on a shaft. If you order lets say a set of rifles ( these are the only ones that are frequency matched by the way)

Also chieflabattblue you'll be happy to hear that True Temper is coming out with a new set of Frequency matched stepless steel shafts named Black Gold,


http://www.truetemper.com/golf/blackgold.asp

cheers