sens-kings

[jonf]

Didn't get a chance to see the game. Checked the boxscore on nhl.com, and there were a tonne of penalties in the third. Can anyone tell me what happened - the explanations on nhl.com and tsn.ca are pretty sparse, probably as they're trying to discourage fighting and such. Thanks in advance.

[Big Johnny69]

Bunch of fights. That was the cause of all the penalties. I must say so that Sean Avery, although a great little aggravator, for someone who talks so tough he doesn't like to back it up. When he wanted to go with Fisher (who's hit was clean) Avery is a big tough guy. But when McGratten (spl?) challenges him he turtles until the refs get in between then he tries to throw. I hope with his comments about French-Canadiens he gets blasted in Montreal tomorrow night.

[fireice]

Although I just listened to the game, the third period was quite interesting as the Sens stood up for each other(Hasek getting bowled over a few times was the big one). As the Sens had to take matters into there own hands as Avery just wasn't getting it and the refs were letting it happen. It would of been nice if Avery hadn't turtled. McGrattan would of pummeled him. Chara ended up with 27 minutes total PIM for the game. Great for my Yahoo pool not if he gets suspended for one game because of a Instigator penalty in the last minutes of a game.

[el tigre]

Lots of hitting in the game. Fisher upended Avery with a beautiful, clean hip check in the first 5 minutes. Avery didn't like it and decided to fight. Bad idea - Fisher won easily.

Neil nailed Dustin Brown from behind into the boards at the start of the third period and was ejected (I wouldn't be surprised if he got a further suspension for that). After Ottawa killed the 5-minute power play, they scored two quick goals to go up 5-1 and then all hell broke loose.

Avery ran Hasek and threw a punch at him. Mezsaros retaliated and cut him with a punch to the face. They both got roughing. When Avery got out of the box, McGratton went after Avery, who turtled. They both got tossed. Cowan then picked a fight with Chris Kelly (it was Kelly's first fight in the NHL), so they were tossed. So Chara went after one of their defencemen, and they were both tossed. Finally, with 3 seconds left and the Sens in total control of the puck just waiting for the buzzer, one of the Kings slams Schubert into the end boards and there was a little scrum. A stupid play to end an ugly period. If these teams meet in the Cup finals, it could get nasty.

Avery kinda started it all by running at Hasek all night, but it was Neil's hit that really caused things to get out of hand. Once the game was out of reach for the Kings you knew it was going to get ugly. The thing is, both Avery and Cowan (I gather he's their other "tough" guy) refused all invitations to fight with any of the Senators tough guys. Instead they turtled or went after the Sens non-fighters - Fisher, Hasek, Kelly, etc. When all the Sens fighters were gone (Neil, McGratton, Chara), they were still running at guys. Although it was interesting that at the end of the game Murray put the Senators 4th-best fighter in nets - Ray Emery. When they had that little scrum at the buzzer, the Kings goalie and bench players stayed put.

[davevandyk]

Ya i find Avery very similar to that of Claude Lemieux in the past. He likes to instigate things but will only throw down with a guy who is not really known as a fighter, that's his game. I am curious to see what happens for next game, because there was several fights in the last 5minutes of the game, i would assume McGratton is out because he did instigate the turtle of Avery, and i believe Chara started his fight as well.

I thought the Kings tried to get tough because they knew the game was over and that they will not play the Sens again. I loved how the Sens stood up for each other and also found it interesting that Murray put Emery in at the end of the game, just in case. I believe it had a little to do with Hasek getting cut, but the substitution didn't come until a couple whistles after Hasek got hit!!

All in all, love to see that the Sens will stand up for each other and arent' afraid to be a physical team, Love the look of the Sens this year.

[Shivas Irons]

Ya i find Avery very similar to that of Claude Lemieux in the past. He likes to instigate things but will only throw down with a guy who is not really known as a fighter, that's his game.

Good assessment. Avery talks the talk but sure doesn't walk the walk.
The guy really picks his spots, and will only fight we he is pretty certain he can win. I don't think Avery expected Fisher to go when he challenged him, he back-pedalled pretty fast when he saw how quickly Fisher dropped his gloves.
Top marks for Kelly hanging in with Cowan knowing full well he was outmatched. That's something you'll never see a coward like Avery do.
Also nice to see the Sens stand up for each other and not be forced, via poor coaching, to turn the other cheek all game.

[Andru]

Good assessment. Avery talks the talk but sure doesn't walk the walk.
The guy really picks his spots, and will only fight we he is pretty certain he can win. I don't think Avery expected Fisher to go when he challenged him, he back-pedalled pretty fast when he saw how quickly Fisher dropped his gloves.
Top marks for Kelly hanging in with Cowan knowing full well he was outmatched. That's something you'll never see a coward like Avery do.
Also nice to see the Sens stand up for each other and not be forced, via poor coaching, to turn the other cheek all game.

Avery and Fisher are the same size. McGratton has 30 pounds on Avery how's that a fair fight?

The thing your'e all ignoring is that Chris Neal did soemthing terrible. The King player went in head first. Only thing that saved him was his head was above the boards. a foot lower and I don't even want to think of what would have happened.

[Shivas Irons]

Avery and Fisher are the same size. McGratton has 30 pounds on Avery how's that a fair fight?

The thing your'e all ignoring is that Chris Neal did soemthing terrible. The King player went in head first. Only thing that saved him was his head was above the boards. a foot lower and I don't even want to think of what would have happened.

That's an interesting take on the game.
Avery ran around taking cheap shots as usual and when you play that style expect retribution.
True, McGratton is a bigger player than Avery, but that doesn't excuse Avery's cowardice.
On the other hand, Cowan is much bigger than Kelly, a more experienced fighter, and will likely have over 100 PIM's this year, but Kelly still stood in there & went toe-to-toe with a guy he knew he couldn't beat. I can guarantee Avery will never do that.
The game was chippy from the get-go, but let's face it, the game really degraded when it became clear to the Kings they were not going to win.

[el tigre]

Avery and Fisher are the same size. McGratton has 30 pounds on Avery how's that a fair fight?

If you don't want to meet the team's enforcers, then don't run at their goaltender. If you go to a bar and get rowdy, they're not going to try and find a bouncer that's the same size as you so it can be a "fair fight".

The thing your'e all ignoring is that Chris Neal did soemthing terrible. The King player went in head first. Only thing that saved him was his head was above the boards. a foot lower and I don't even want to think of what would have happened.

I didn't ignore it. It was a nasty check from behind and Neal was ejected and rightfully so. But Brown did not go in head-first - he was standing up and his head went back when he went into the boards. He was not seriously injured and played the next game in Montreal.

[Andru]

If you don't want to meet the team's enforcers, then don't run at their goaltender. If you go to a bar and get rowdy, they're not going to try and find a bouncer that's the same size as you so it can be a "fair fight".

I didn't ignore it. It was a nasty check from behind and Neal was ejected and rightfully so. But Brown did not go in head-first - he was standing up and his head went back when he went into the boards. He was not seriously injured and played the next game in Montreal.

I agree it's still a dangerous hit. it's pretty much luck why the injury wasn't worse.

All I'm saying is Avery fought Fisher a guy his size. and declined to fight someone much larger. Seems smart on his part. I'm not sure why everyone thinks Chara is such a hero he grabbed a guy almost 60 pounds lighter. If Shanahan goes out and grabs St Louis. or Gionta and starts pounding him you'd call him a coward. I'm echoing those sentiments.

[Shivas Irons]

If Shanahan goes out and grabs St Louis. or Gionta and starts pounding him you'd call him a coward. I'm echoing those sentiments.

The difference being that St Louis or Ginota don't play the style that Avery does. As a player, if you dish out cheapshots, run the goalie, and generally get in people's faces, expect to have to back up your actions. Avery doesn't.
Chara's fight was a direct response to the mismatch Kelly was involved in.
Eye for an eye.

[Andru]

The difference being that St Louis or Ginota don't play the style that Avery does. As a player, if you dish out cheapshots, run the goalie, and generally get in people's faces, expect to have to back up your actions. Avery doesn't.
Chara's fight was a direct response to the mismatch Kelly was involved in.
Eye for an eye.

Avery fought Fisher didn't he? So it's the Bertuzzi thing again. Well Fisher couldn't beat him up so let's keep sending bodies until someone does. Only thing missing was the guy on the ice with the busted neck. Like I said. A silly suspension like this is like having a criminal record it always comes to bite you when it matters the most.

[Shivas Irons]

Avery fought Fisher didn't he? ...Well Fisher couldn't beat him up so let's keep sending bodies until someone does.

You really think Avery won that fight? Check the replay - the fight was less than 30 seconds from dance 'til dust-up, to me it looked like Fisher caught Avery with two rights, Avery got Fisher with one and they went down.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/videos/

So it's the Bertuzzi thing again. Only thing missing was the guy on the ice with the busted neck.

That's a little much wouldn't you say? If a player plays the way Avery does he will continually need to defend himself. Sometimes Avery does, other times he turtles.
The problem with the Bertuzzi thing is it involved Bertuzzi.

[Andru]

You really think Avery won that fight? Check the replay - the fight was less than 30 seconds from dance 'til dust-up, to me it looked like Fisher caught Avery with two rights, Avery got Fisher with one and they went down.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/videos/



That's a little much wouldn't you say? If a player plays the way Avery does he will continually need to defend himself. Sometimes Avery does, other times he turtles.
The problem with the Bertuzzi thing is it involved Bertuzzi.

I didn't say Avery beat Fisher. ( I should check this after I've had my coffe in the am)

it's the same situation. Avweryh runs the goalie a few times. The sens take exception and Mike Fisher tees off. It's a draw no outcome. Ala Steve Moore against Brad May.

Somehow the sens feel justice hasn't been served so they send out McGrattton after Avery. That's the whole bertuzzi thing. Van wasn't satisfied with the job Brad May did so they sent out Bertuzzi. I'm just sick of the whole thing. Like I said the only difference is Avery knew it was coming and bailed. Same exact nonsense.

Sens fans love it because they've been the whipping boys for so long. It's nice to have some team sand paper. I get that.

[Hank Hill]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks Chara is such a hero he grabbed a guy almost 60 pounds lighter. If Shanahan goes out and grabs St Louis. or Gionta and starts pounding him you'd call him a coward. I'm echoing those sentiments.

Chara picked on their toughest guy that was left. Incidently, Gleason had fought Shanahan only a few days previous to this fight. Chara was mad that, all of a sudden the Kings so-called tough guys (Cowan and Gleason) who had skated away from McGratton all night but then all of a sudden got real tough after he was ejected. Cowan fighting Chris Kelly. I'm glad the Sens stood up for each other, this will go a long way to make this team a stronger more united force.

I am in no way condoning Neil's hit by the way. It was a bad one and Neil knows that. I don't buy into the "it's not a fair fight" stuff. If Avery wants to act like that off and on the ice then he has to be able to back it up.

[Shivas Irons]

I didn't say Avery beat Fisher. ( I should check this after I've had my coffe in the am)

it's the same situation. Avweryh runs the goalie a few times. The sens take exception and Mike Fisher tees off. It's a draw no outcome. Ala Steve Moore against Brad May.

Somehow the sens feel justice hasn't been served so they send out McGrattton after Avery. That's the whole bertuzzi thing. Van wasn't satisfied with the job Brad May did so they sent out Bertuzzi. I'm just sick of the whole thing. Like I said the only difference is Avery knew it was coming and bailed. Same exact nonsense.

Sens fans love it because they've been the whipping boys for so long. It's nice to have some team sand paper. I get that.

This is nothing like the Bertuzzi punch which was premeditated, and everyone knew the Canucks were out for Moore well before the game was even played. It was well covered by the media.
The Fisher Avery fight was a direct result of a (clean) hip check Fisher gave seconds before and Avery, knowing he would stand a chance of being able to beat Fisher, decided to scrap. It was spur of the moment and I have no problem with that.
For the remainder of the game Avery continually ran the goalie so it should come as no surprise that he is going to have to answer for it. These incidents all took place in the same game, so it's not as if the Sens were looking for retribution from a previous game, which was the case with Bertuzzi.
To suggest the Sens should send someone out who is the same size as Avery so he has a fair chance is ridiculous.

[el tigre]

I didn't say Avery beat Fisher. ( I should check this after I've had my coffe in the am)

it's the same situation. Avweryh runs the goalie a few times. The sens take exception and Mike Fisher tees off. It's a draw no outcome. Ala Steve Moore against Brad May.

Somehow the sens feel justice hasn't been served so they send out McGrattton after Avery. That's the whole bertuzzi thing. Van wasn't satisfied with the job Brad May did so they sent out Bertuzzi. I'm just sick of the whole thing. Like I said the only difference is Avery knew it was coming and bailed. Same exact nonsense.

It is obvious from these comments that you did not actually see any of incidents involved and are simply patching together a very biased version of the facts based on seeing a few highlight reels. Perhaps you should restrict your comments to games that you actually watched:

1) The Fisher/Avery fight happened in the first few minutes of the game as a direct result of Fisher's hip check. It was long before Avery starting running the goalie or causing any trouble - and it was Avery that took exception and wanted to fight, not Fisher. If it had ended there everyone on the Sens would have been happy.

2) Avery didn't just run Hasek - he punched him in the head. It should come as no surprise to anyone with any hockey knowledge that teams take exception to someone trying to injure their goaltender. Goalies are even more off-limits than your star goal scorer. Avery knows that too - in fact he was counting on it.

Comparing this to the Bertuzzi/Moore incident is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It was Avery that continued to escalate the situation - not the Senators. Avery's whole purpose was to get the team to come after him. Guess what, it worked - but the Kings lost anyway.

[guyfrompei]

Looks like Brian Murray wanted in on the action after the game as well....LOL
*WARNING* for language...

http://www.letsgokings.com/images/custom/murrayfox.wmv

[Andru]

2) Avery didn't just run Hasek - he punched him in the head. It should come as no surprise to anyone with any hockey knowledge that teams take exception to someone trying to injure their goaltender. Goalies are even more off-limits than your star goal scorer. Avery knows that too - in fact he was counting on it.

Note* insult one. "anyone with any hockey knowledge"

2) Avery punched Hasek when he left his net and approached him behind the net. Avery's not going to wait for Hasek to clock him with a blocker to his chops. Whether DH was going to do it or not is trivial. Avery responded. If Hasek doesn't want to get punched stay in the net. It's funny you mention Hockey Knowledge If you'd like to compare hockey resumes. I'd be happy to.

Comparing this to the Bertuzzi/Moore incident is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

*Note insult 2 "most ridiculous thing I have ever heard"

I didn't even read a word after this line. Debate seens to be degrading. I'm out.

[Andru]

Chara picked on their toughest guy that was left. Incidently, Gleason had fought Shanahan only a few days previous to this fight. Chara was mad that, all of a sudden the Kings so-called tough guys (Cowan and Gleason) who had skated away from McGratton all night but then all of a sudden got real tough after he was ejected. Cowan fighting Chris Kelly. I'm glad the Sens stood up for each other, this will go a long way to make this team a stronger more united force.

I am in no way condoning Neil's hit by the way. It was a bad one and Neil knows that. I don't buy into the "it's not a fair fight" stuff. If Avery wants to act like that off and on the ice then he has to be able to back it up.

That's a good point about Chara. I just cringe when a guy like Chara. Who you have to admit has the capacity to seriously injure a player in a fight. So if he goes after a guy so much smaller than him. Though Sens fans are salivating. It won't feel too good knowing you've ended a guys career. Call me cautious or over cautious, but don't say this is all good. it's not. That stupid one game suspension can bite you in the arse at the wrong time. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Shivas Irons]

That's a good point about Chara. I just cringe when a guy like Chara. Who you have to admit has the capacity to seriously injure a player in a fight. So if he goes after a guy so much smaller than him. Though Sens fans are salivating. It won't feel too good knowing you've ended a guys career. Call me cautious or over cautious, but don't say this is all good. it's not. That stupid one game suspension can bite you in the arse at the wrong time. That's all I'm sayin'.

This mismatch was a response to the mismatch that Chris Kelly was involved in - you know, the one that you neglect to make any reference to.
Anyone who has seen Chara play knows he's not a dirty player, and doesn't generally go around picking fights with guys who are smaller than he is.(which is pretty much everyone)
I'll admit watching the replay of Chara pounding on Gleason was not pleasant, however Gleason basically has his teamate Avery to thank for instigating the bad blood in this game.

[Hank Hill]

That's a good point about Chara. I just cringe when a guy like Chara. Who you have to admit has the capacity to seriously injure a player in a fight. So if he goes after a guy so much smaller than him. Though Sens fans are salivating. It won't feel too good knowing you've ended a guys career. Call me cautious or over cautious, but don't say this is all good. it's not. That stupid one game suspension can bite you in the arse at the wrong time. That's all I'm sayin'.

I cringe, but only because I don't want chara to break his fist. Chara is enormous, at 6ft 9, 260 pounds, I doubt that there are many other NHLers of this size. With Neil and McGratton out of the game it was left to Chara to settle the score after the Kelly/Cowan mismatch. Again I reiterate that Cowan was not so keen to fight when McGratton asked him to go on more than one occasion, but all of a sudden got tough when McGratton was gone. It was unlucky for Gleason that he was the biggest guy left on the ice and that Chara pounded him. I just hope that this will not come back and bite Chara as you say in the form of a longer suspension for a second offence.

The Sens will not be pushed around this time, but I do find it funny that all this kicked off between two teams who will not play again for 3 years. It could be very ugly if it had been Toronto, or Philly with all those games between them coming up.

Still, it was a cracking game and the Sens penalty kill was superb once again. Way to go Sens!!

[jonf]

All I can say is, I'm glad old time hockey isn't dead

[Andru]

This mismatch was a response to the mismatch that Chris Kelly was involved in - you know, the one that you neglect to make any reference to.
Anyone who has seen Chara play knows he's not a dirty player, and doesn't generally go around picking fights with guys who are smaller than he is.(which is pretty much everyone)
I'll admit watching the replay of Chara pounding on Gleason was not pleasant, however Gleason basically has his teamate Avery to thank for instigating the bad blood in this game.

Fine I'll acknoledge the Kelly Cowan mismatch I actually looked it up.

Chris Kelly 6' 190 LBS
Jeff Cowan 6' 2" 205 22 Penalty Mins. Career high 115 ( Sounds like a brawler to me )

Yippee 2 inches and 15 pounds. At least Kelly had a chance.

Chara 6' 9" 260
Gleason 6' and a whopping 200 LBS!!! He's a threat to man kind if I ever saw one.

Almost a foot taller and giving up 60 LBS! Do you see my point now. I think the stats speak for themselves.

I'm not calling Z dirty. Not in the least. I saw him ease up on St Louis when Tampa was in town in the corner. Had a great view of it from row B. ( It seems he does watch games. and live too not for you the recepient the target knows who he is. ) All I'm saying is. Chris Philips or Varada or Smolinski ( Who isn't doing much anyway ) should have stepped up. It didn't have to be Z.

[Andru]

I cringe, but only because I don't want chara to break his fist. Chara is enormous, at 6ft 9, 260 pounds, I doubt that there are many other NHLers of this size. With Neil and McGratton out of the game it was left to Chara to settle the score after the Kelly/Cowan mismatch. Again I reiterate that Cowan was not so keen to fight when McGratton asked him to go on more than one occasion, but all of a sudden got tough when McGratton was gone. It was unlucky for Gleason that he was the biggest guy left on the ice and that Chara pounded him. I just hope that this will not come back and bite Chara as you say in the form of a longer suspension for a second offence.

The Sens will not be pushed around this time, but I do find it funny that all this kicked off between two teams who will not play again for 3 years. It could be very ugly if it had been Toronto, or Philly with all those games between them coming up.

Still, it was a cracking game and the Sens penalty kill was superb once again. Way to go Sens!!

At least you didn't say Go Sens Go. I think that is old and worn out, no one really likes it they do it because no one has come up with something better. I'm trying believe me I'm trying.

Note the Kelly Cowan "Mismatch" below i did some research.

Chris Kelly 6' 190 LBS
Jeff Cowan 6' 2" 205 22 Penalty Mins.

[Hank Hill]

Chara 6' 9" 260
Gleason 6' and a whopping 200 LBS!!! He's a threat to man kind if I ever saw one.

Almost a foot taller and giving up 60 LBS! Do you see my point now. I think the stats speak for themselves.

I checked those stats out too (those are the TSN ones), but went over to NHL.com just to make sure but they had Gleason at 6ft 0in and 217 lbs. Not sure how accurate any of the Stats are, remember john Daly's weight on the pgatour.com, laughable.

In any case it is still a mis-match and we clearly saw that during the fight, kudos to Gleason for trying to get a punch in and not turtling like Avery.

Anyway, he served his suspension and hopefully that is that. But you have got to like the big Z as a player. I think any team would love him in their top pair, the Yashin trade is looking better by the day.

[Andru]

I checked those stats out too (those are the TSN ones), but went over to NHL.com just to make sure but they had Gleason at 6ft 0in and 217 lbs. Not sure how accurate any of the Stats are, remember john Daly's weight on the pgatour.com, laughable.

In any case it is still a mis-match and we clearly saw that during the fight, kudos to Gleason for trying to get a punch in and not turtling like Avery.

Anyway, he served his suspension and hopefully that is that. But you have got to like the big Z as a player. I think any team would love him in their top pair, the Yashin trade is looking better by the day.

I used NHL.com but your'e right who knows how accurate they are. Gleason may be a better figher than kelly.but Kelly was in no way over powered.

Z is in the top 4 in the league. That's a fact. He's feared by all but a few.

[Colby]

At least you didn't say Go Sens Go. I think that is old and worn out, no one really likes it they do it because no one has come up with something better. I'm trying believe me I'm trying.

Note the Kelly Cowan "Mismatch" below i did some research.

Chris Kelly 6' 190 LBS
Jeff Cowan 6' 2" 205 22 Penalty Mins.

The point missing here is that Cowan is the Kings enforcer. You don't have to be big to be an enforcer.

Chris Neil - 6'0" 215lbs (the enforcer last year)
Tie Domi - 5'10" 213lbs.

So following your train of thought, a non-fighter like Kelly would be a fair fight for Domi because Kelly is 2 inches taller even though Domi is 23 pounds heavier.

[Shivas Irons]

At least you didn't say Go Sens Go. I think that is old and worn out, no one really likes it they do it because no one has come up with something better. I'm trying believe me I'm trying.

Note the Kelly Cowan "Mismatch" below i did some research.

Chris Kelly 6' 190 LBS
Jeff Cowan 6' 2" 205 22 Penalty Mins.

Again, you neglect to mention this was Kelly's FIRST NHL fight.
So what you are saying is Kelly was not outmatched by Cowan? Give me a break , it was clear right from the get go that Kelly didn't have a prayer in that tilt and everyone including Kelly new it. Kelly is not a fighter and Cowan is.

You then suggest they send Phillips or Varada to punish someone? Why? Does it not make more sense to send out your biggest guy if you want someone to take a beating?

[jonf]

Chara's got about three feet on Tie Domi, but nobody complains if the two of them duke it out. Why? Because Domi is a fighter. It's not about whether or not you're bigger than the other guy, its a matter of them being a fighter or not. Any time a fighter takes on a non-fighter, there are going to be repercussions. Especially if they do so after refusing to take on another fighter (and mouthing off to the whole league about those damn guys with visors who fly around hitting everyone and never back it up). Avery refused to take his medecine, so, unfortunately for him, Gleason suffered on account of it. Chara was sending a much needed message that nobody is going to run Hasek and not have to pay the price.