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Thread: At rest

  1. #1
    2 Iron JimmyW is on a distinguished road JimmyW's Avatar
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    At rest

    After reading Gary’s answers over the last day this should be a relatively simple one to respond to. While playing the Meadows Sat morning on the West 9 one of my FC’s balls landed IN the green-side bunker front-right of the green and about 3 feet from the edge closest to the green. My shot landed short of the bunker and rolled thru and up the other side of said bunker and came to rest in the little rough between green and bunker, at approx a 30* angle. My ball is now at rest 6 feet closer to the hole than my FC’s and 3 feet to one side. While he is addressing his ball (minutes after both came to rest) my ball then rolls down to about where his ball is. No contact was made and it appeared to move of it’s own volition. Do I:

    1. Replace ball?
    2. Drop ball?
    3. Play as it lies?


    JW

    PS Is there a time limit on “ball at rest”?

  2. #2
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Play it as it lies.

    A ball at rest is always subject to slope and wind.
    There is no time limit on "my ball is here now". You play from the place your ball is resting at the time of your stroke.

    In a recent Masters Tournament, you may have seen Sergio Garcia running to mark his ball at rest on the putting green before it "moved" away from the hole on a slippery slope.

    Exceptions:
    1. Once you address the ball, you are penalized if the ball thereafter moves.
    2. It is determined that someone "caused" the ball to move.

  3. #3
    2 Iron JimmyW is on a distinguished road JimmyW's Avatar
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    Once you address the ball, you are penalized if the ball thereafter moves.
    Question 2 (hypothetical of course)

    Locations are reversed. MY ball is in bunker (on angle) and I am addressing(?) ball by standing over it, club not grounded, and looking at green-picking my landing place-and genarally looking everywhere else except at the ball (MY ball) that just rolled down the bunker and bounced off my right foot.
    I know that a player may not make contact w/ ball. However isn't this a case of ball making contact w/ player?? Or do I have to goose-step out of the way and if I don't it's my fault?

    JW

  4. #4
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    It is not entirely clear from your question whether the ball is at rest in the bunker WHEN you take your stance. I will try to explain two separtate scenarios.


    1. Ball in bunker at rest. You take your stance in the bunker and do not ground your club. You have "addressed" the ball.

    If the ball moves, you are deemed to have moved it. (Rule 18-2b.)
    You are assessed a one stroke penalty and the ball must be replaced.
    Once the ball start its motion, it is no longer in play because you have "illegally" caused it to move, so Rule 19-2b does not apply.

    2. Ball in bunker at rest. You are in the bunker but have not taken your stance.

    Your ball is in play. If the ball moves on its own (due to the slope or wind) you must get out of the way. If the ball contacts you, you will be assessed a two stroke penalty for influencing the "legal" movement of the ball. (Rule 19-2b.)

    Rule 18-2b.
    If a player’s ball in play moves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player shall be deemed to have moved the ball and shall incur a penalty stroke.

    Rule 19-2b.
    If a competitor’s ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by himself, his partner or either of their caddies or equipment, the competitor shall incur a penalty of two strokes.

  5. #5
    Sand Wedge RU418 is on a distinguished road
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    Rule 18 2b

    If the ball moves after he has addressed it raises an interesting question regarding the Colin Mongomery issue at Valderama.

    At what point when putting are you deemed to have addressed the ball? Montgomery claims he never grounded his putter and held his putter 9" behind the ball. He said the ball moved when his putter was still 1/2" behind the ball while he was making his stroke. He says at no time did he cause the ball to move.

    Even though the rules official respected the 'honour of the player' it seems at conflict with the rules.

    Also is a ball in play while still on the putting green yet marked with a marker. What if the ball roles over and touches the marker? Is it influenced by an outside agent? What if you take your putting stance over the ball while the marker is still there?

    OOPS! Sorry but I've just asked about 5 questions but one thought seemed to lead to another. :o
    Tee it up, knock it down the middle.

  6. #6
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    You have addressed the ball at this point:
    A player has "addressed the ball'' when he has taken his stance and has also grounded his club, except that in a hazard a player has addressed the ball when he has taken his stance.

    Rules officials are obligated to make a ruling based on the best available evidence. They are not requiring to accept the word of the player if, for instance, video evidence shows otherwise.

    If Montgomery says at no time did he "cause" the ball to move, then he obviously does not understand the Rules.
    It makes no difference under the Rules whether or not you actually cause the ball to move.
    Once you have addressed the ball, if it moves, you are penalized.
    It is a question of fact whether Montgomery actually grounded his club. I was not at the event, so I cannot say.

    re: Also is a ball in play while still on the putting green yet marked with a marker.

    Yes. The ball is in play until it has been lifted.
    The ball is again in play when it been replaced (even though the marking device is still be on the putting green).

    re: What if the ball roles over and touches the marker?

    You would be required to play from the new place.
    (Unless you cause the ball to move in the specific act of removing the marker in which case, the ball would be replaced.)

    re: Is it influenced by an outside agent?

    The ball must be replaced before the player plays another stroke. No penalty to anyone.

    re: What if you take your putting stance over the ball while the marker is still there?

    Once you have marked, lifted, and replaced your ball, it is IN PLAY.
    The marker becomes a moveable obstruction.
    If the ball moves, you have to play the ball from its new place.
    If you have addressed the ball and the ball moves, the ball must be replaced with a one stroke penalty.
    (You know exactly where to put it because the marker is still there)

  7. #7
    Sand Wedge RU418 is on a distinguished road
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    Thank you for your reply Gary however you have prompted two further questions for clarification.

    You clarified that 'taking your stance' is when a player has taken his stance And also grounded his club. If a player does not ever purposely ground the club during his stance, outside a hazzard, are they in anyway protecting themselves if the ball should move?

    My other question is while replacing your ball that has been marked, at what point does the ball go back into play? You said the ball is in play even if the marker has yet to be removed. You also said that if the ball moves of it's own volition it must be played from the new place. The reason I ask this is we often see the touring pro's place and replace the ball until it is stable. I remember once on a severe slope and the ball would not stay put, the player was allowed to move his ball to a flat surface no closer to the hole. If I replace a marked ball and it rolls to a better position, am I obligated to replace it?

    Thank you
    Tee it up, knock it down the middle.

  8. #8
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    You are very much protected if you never ground your club.

    If the ball moves, you are NOT deemed to have moved the ball unless you have, in fact, caused it to move.

    Jack Nicholas is one example of a player who NEVER grounds his club before a shot.

    When replacing a ball, your ball is in play when you take your hand off the ball AND it is at rest.

    If the ball cannot be replaced at rest at its marked position, it shall be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest which is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard.

  9. #9
    5 Iron Carlos is on a distinguished road
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    Marked ball, ball moves?

    What if as it might have happened recently at the AT&T Mike Weir, when replaicing his ball in front of his marker he goes to the other side to view the line and it moves?

  10. #10
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    I don't know how to respond to "when replacing".

    The ball is either replaced or not replaced.

    The ball is replaced the INSTANT the player places the ball on the putting green and removes his hand.

    The ball is IMMEDIATELY in play.

    It makes NO difference whether or not the player removes the ball marker.

    If the ball at rest thereafter moves, the player must play from the new place.

  11. #11
    3 Wood jimrobin is on a distinguished road
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    According to your response above.

    Gary:
    A guy is facing a considerable downhill putt. He marks his ball, lifts, cleans, and replaces, but while replacing, tries to replace it as lightly as possible hoping it will roll forward closer to the hole before he takes his stance.
    Is there any rule regarding this to protect players from doing this?

    Cause I know a few guys that I play with, that will try anything for an advantage.

  12. #12
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    The ball is not "replaced" until it is "at rest" on the spot on which it is to be replaced.

    Rule 20-3d.
    If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, it shall be replaced without penalty.

    If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:
    except in a hazard, it shall be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest which is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

    in a hazard, it shall be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest which is not nearer the hole.

    If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball shall be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

    So, in answer to your specific question:

    I don't see the advantage.

    The ball must be at rest initially or it would have to be replaced.

    Your only hope would be that if the ball were "lightly placed" it would be placed at rest and then magically come to life and roll towards the hole.

    I also fail to see what the difference is between placed and "lightly" placed. Once you remove your hand, the ball is sitting on the putting green under its own weight.

    You are NOT allowed to "push" the ball into the putting green when placing it.

  13. #13
    3 Wood jimrobin is on a distinguished road
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    Your only hope would be that if the ball were "lightly placed" it would be placed at rest and then magically come to life and roll towards the hole.

    Anyone watching the World Golf Championships saw this happen on the 1st day to Thomas Levet (except it rolled back into the hazzard.)

    I also fail to see what the difference is between placed and "lightly" placed. Once you remove your hand, the ball is sitting on the putting green under its own weight.

    Gary:
    We all know there can be a difference (no matter how slight). You can place the ball IN the grass on the green (without pushing it down hard), or you can place the ball ON the grass lightly.
    Mind you, this all depends on the length of the green.


    Anyways, thanks for your reponse.
    I guess as long as the ball is at rest, whatever happens, happens.
    With an uphill putt, everyone should place the ball in the grass.
    With an downhill putt, try to place it on the grass (especially if you're down wind.) .

  14. #14
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Well, there should not be a difference.

    The ball should be placed on the putting green by holding the ball at the equator and lowering your hand until the ball touches the putting surface. When you remove your hand, the grass is compressed onto the surface of the putting green by the weight of the ball only.

    Any other means of replacing the ball could result in a penalty.

    Sometimes golfers have strange ideas about their powers over the laws of physics.

    I have actually seen players casting a shadow over the ball when it is over-hanging the hole in the hope that the shadow will influence the grass in the next ten seconds and cause the ball to drop into the hole.

  15. #15
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gary Hill
    I have actually seen players casting a shadow over the ball when it is over-hanging the hole in the hope that the shadow will influence the grass in the next ten seconds and cause the ball to drop into the hole.
    I once played with a guy who did that. He thought he was doing something nobody knew about, and guarded his secret. When asked, he was not forthcoming with the truth about what he was doing. (I already knew) I doubt it works, but is that not cheating by [i]attempting[/] to influence the ball? His lack of honesty made me watch everything he did for he rest of the day. I have not played with him since.

  16. #16
    3 Wood jimrobin is on a distinguished road
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    Any other means of replacing the ball could result in a penalty.

    Gary:
    That is my original question. If I see someone trying to do this, what penalties are available to be called?

    I mean, someone may have 5 downhill putts in a round. They may try it all 5 times, and it may actually work once and roll down next to the hole.

    I know I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but the scenario mentioned above could happen. And this is my point. To me once a ball is marked and removed, the next shot should be taken from that spot no matter what happens. If it moves (before you take your stance) it should be replaced without penalty because to me HOW the ball is replaced could affect the ball if the slope is severe enough. Just my opinion.

  17. #17
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Dan - No, there is no penalty.
    The Rules prohibit actually influencing the ball.
    Attempting to influence the movement of the ball, such as yelling at it to stay out of the woods, is not a penalty.

    jimrobin -

    It is impracticable to force a player to play from a place where his ball absolutely will not remain at rest on the original spot.
    In theory, I suppose, you could make the player keep re-trying to place the ball on the original spot, but time would become a factor.

  18. #18
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Thumbs up That's a relief!!

    Gary, that's good to hear! I attempt to influence the movement of the ball all the time, with predictable results. Perhaps I need golf balls with hearing aids.

    Mind you, some people might describe EVERY golf swing I make as attempting to influence the movement of the ball!

  19. #19
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Etiquette recommends talking to your ball only ONCE per shot.

    You shouldn't be yelling: Go! Go! Go! Then: Stop! Stop! Stop!

  20. #20
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    So...
    I cast a shadow on the ball, attemting to make the blades lie down, and the ball falls in the hole. Even though my intent was to influence the ball, it is ok since I did not touch it. Might be better than NOT doing that, just in case there is something to it. After all, ya gotta stand somewhere for 10 seconds.

  21. #21
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Well, I prefer the tried and true method of quickly kneeling and praying to St. Jude ( the patron saint of lost causes) for 10 seconds.

  22. #22
    5 Iron Carlos is on a distinguished road
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    marking and looking over the line.

    Ok am I right to say that after you have picked up your ball after marking it, cleaned it and replaced it and then proceed to look over the putt that once you have placed it "regardless" of whether it still has your marker; if it moves at any time after you have replaced it to view the line of the putt even if the marker is still behind the ball , your are assessed a penalyt stoke and must replace it at its original spot???

  23. #23
    Sand Wedge Jimmy is on a distinguished road
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    Marked Ball on green

    Carlos,

    FYI if you have marked your ball on the green and you put your ball in front of your marker to take a look at the the putt and the ball moves NO PENALTY. Penalty only occurs when the ball moves with no marker.

  24. #24
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Re: Marked Ball on green

    Originally posted by Carlos
    Ok am I right to say that after you have picked up your ball after marking it, cleaned it and replaced it and then proceed to look over the putt that once you have placed it "regardless" of whether it still has your marker; if it moves at any time after you have replaced it to view the line of the putt even if the marker is still behind the ball , your are assessed a penalyt stoke and must replace it at its original spot???
    Incorrect.

    Once you have replaced your ball.
    1. It is in play.
    2. It is as if you had never touched it.
    3. It makes no difference whether or not you leave the marker.
    4. If the ball is moved by the slope, then it is just in a new place and you continue from there.
    NO replacing, NO penalty.
    Originally posted by Jimmy
    FYI if you have marked your ball on the green and you put your ball in front of your marker to take a look at the the putt and the ball moves NO PENALTY. Penalty only occurs when the ball moves with no marker.
    Absolutely Incorrect.

    1. It makes no difference whether or not you leave the marker.
    NO replacing, NO penalty.

    Look at it this way:

    You hit the ball onto the putting green from 150 yards out.
    On your way to the putting green, the ball (which had been at rest) is blown by the wind to within 1 foot of the hole.
    Where do you play from?
    You play from 1 foot from the hole.

    It is the same thing after you mark it.
    You replace your ball on the putting green and then go back to your bag for your putter.

    The ball is IN PLAY.
    If the wind moves the ball to within 1 foot of the hole, so be it.
    You putt from 1 foot from the hole.
    No replacing; No penalty.

  25. #25
    5 Iron Carlos is on a distinguished road
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    Misinterpreted

    I think this is the most misinterpeted rule. Two weeks ago at the AT &T the commentators were even commenting on this very thing, saying " if Mike Wier keeps his marker behind the ball and it rolls off the green he can replace it." I too and many I have played with were too....

    "Nice to know the rules"...

  26. #26
    RulesNut Gary Hill is on a distinguished road Gary Hill's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, the commentators know VERY LITTLE about the Rules. :cryin

  27. #27
    Sand Wedge Jimmy is on a distinguished road
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    Don't make sense !!!!

    Mr. Hill,

    If what you say is correct, and why should we not believe you, well let me see. I have seen many golfers, PRO golfers mark their ball, leave their ball in front of the marker, take a survey come back to their ball and make a minor adjustment to the line while the marker is still there.

    According if your response to my post is righteous, then the players would incurr a penalty ! Please if you are going to make a response it is best to use a proper example. Yours was grossly inadequate. Therefore I suggest you go back to the drawing board Mr. Rules.

  28. #28
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    I do not see a contradiction in what Gary said.
    Since the rules allow for a ball in play on the green to be marked and lifted, this could be done as many times as you like. While you have it in your hand it is not in play, but the marker is there. Put it back on the green, with or without lifting the marker, it is in play, and if it rolls without your influence, then that is where you play from. However, as long as a ball remains on the green you can remark your ball, and line up the logo. So if the marker is still there, and the ball does not move, it is still marked, and can be adjusted for alignment.

  29. #29
    Sand Wedge Jimmy is on a distinguished road
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    Rules !

    After re-reading Mr. Hill's reply I agree with you Dan, however if someone is to be a rules official per say, then let the guy quote the ruling from the rule book for us. Which rule book whether it be USGA Rules or whatever. If we are to learn the rules of the game, we all should possess a rule book in our golf bags, and another beside the " throne"!

    I think in the future Mr. Hill should quote all rulings from the rule book, ie: 18:2a etc. I posted my first reply to Carlos based on what I too heard on the Golf Channel with regards to why Mike Weir did remove his marker, while his ball was on a slippery slope.

    I would like to get other people opinion on whether or not Mr. Hill if he is to be our Rules specialist, to quote the Ruling from the rule book with Section,and Paragraph.

    Keeping it simple in the Artic ! Jimmy

  30. #30
    Hopelessly Addicted el tigre is on a distinguished road el tigre's Avatar
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    Quotations from Rule Book

    You will find the requisite quotations from the Rule Book earlier in this thread. Perhaps you should read threads FROM THE BEGINNING before you comment on the moderator's handling of them.

    Frankly, I am amazed at the amount of patience he has shown in this thread. He has stated the same thing a dozen different ways using a myriad of examples - if you don't understand it by now Jimmy, then I don't think you ever will.
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