It's Not My Fault!!!

[natgolfer]

They are occasions when the rules can benefit the player, for example, knowing WHEN and HOW to take relief. Also, it is only fair that the player be penalized for hitting the wrong shot to the wrong place, or for doing something contrary to the rules.

Are there rules or situations, other than my example below, that occur in the game that penalize the PLAYER for actions committed by a fellow competitor(medal play), opponent(match play) or by an outside agency?

And if there are, why do they continue to exist?

Example: In a recent LPGA event, Kris Tschetter was disqualified because her FELLOW COMPETITOR did not sign Kris' scorecard. Why is the CF not disqualified instead of Kris. Kris was available to sign the card and if the FC takes off, should she not be disqualified? This decision was grossly unfair to Kris because it was not her fault that her FC left.

Are there others?

[Gary Hill]

Rule 6-6
b. After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He shall ensure that the marker has signed the card, countersign the card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

The PLAYER is absolutely responsible for the scorecard. Anything less would be intolerable.

The player MUST insure that the marker has signed the card.
The player can NOT have a valid score if the marker "disappears" during the round.

There are NO situations in the Rules where the player can be penalized by the actions of a FC, opponent, or outside agency unless the players has authorized or sanctioned such action.
(eg. A spectator "prefers" your lie and you say or do nothing to prevent it.)

If, in fact, the marker has "disappeared", how is it possible that the player HAS the scorecard???

[natgolfer]

In a recent Ottawa Valley Invitational tournament, my marker had my unsigned scorecard and went to the parking lot to put his clubs away. My card was then given to a third FC in my group to give to me. I had to return to the parking lot to get it signed by marker. If I had have gone there two minutes later my marker would have been gone and I would then have been disqualified. It may be the rule, but it's still unfair!

"There are NO situations in the Rules where the player can be penalized by the actions of a FC, opponent, or outside agency unless the players has authorized or sanctioned such action."

If the above statement is true, then why am I penalized if my FC, who is attending the flag for me on the putting green, fails to pull it out and my ball hits the flag? Assume he/she did not do this deliberately. I authorized my FC to attend the flag, but I did not authorize him/her to leave it in as my ball approached. Do I have to say to him/her, "Take the flag out after I hit my putt," in order to avoid being penalized? Or, to avoid this situation completely, should I just hit the putt, even though I cannot see the hole? This would solve the problem, but again seems ridiculously unfair.

This is why I asked the original question. Here are two examples of unfair penalties caused by the actions of my FC. Are there others?

[Gary Hill]

Natgolfer -

Neither is an example of a penalty caused by the actions of a fellow-competitor without authorization by the player.

In the first example where your marker "ran away with the scorecard":

The Committee would make every effort to contact the marker. If unsuccessful, the Committee would accept certification of the score by someone else who witnessed the round, perhaps the marker's caddie or the competitor's caddie. If no one other than the marker witnessed the round, the score would be accepted without attestation by a marker.

In the second example, where your ball strikes the flagstick:

Rule 17-3 Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant
The player's ball shall not strike:
a. The flagstick when attended, removed or held up by the player, his partner or either of their caddies, or by another person with the player's authority or prior knowledge

Rule 17-3 makes clear that the flagstick shall not be struck when attended. Once you authorize the flagstick to be attended, you have specifically accepted responsibility for any penalties incurred by this action.

As you correctly qualified in your question, if the fellow-competitor purposely caused the penalty, the fellow-competitor would be disqualified and the player would be allowed to replay the stroke without penalty.

[em69]

Natgolfer...watch a round of PGA golf and you will see that all caddies never leave the flag entirely in the hole when tending the flag. They let the flag sit on top of one of the threes holes inside the cup...that way it is easier to pull it out without pulling the cup out of the hole.

[natgolfer]

I appreciate the comments, however, while I understand how these rules are applied, it still does not make them "right."

Frequently, usually every 4 years, the rules are revised. Those rules that the powers at be feel should be modified, are.

In my opinion, the application of a penalty, caused by the inappropriate action of others, is wrong. As I do not know, with absolute certainty, the my FC is going to pull out the flag, it is my belief that if he does not, that my stroke should be replayed AND that he be penalized. If the latter were to occur, then my FC would make darn sure that the flag was removed.

I know the present rule states that it is my responsibility if he does not remove the flag, but because his not doing it is out of my control, it's still WRONG. How do you know that his not doing it is caused by "distraction" or was done intentionally? You don't! Therefore, revising the rule to eliminate this grey area, would solve the problem.

If my fellow competitor was disqualified for not signing my card, then there is an increased chance that Kris Tschetter's card would have been signed.

All I am looking for is some acknowledgement of the unfairness of these existing rules.

[Gary Hill]

natgolfer -

You and I are fellow-competitors. You tee off and hit your ball Out of Bounds. I tee off in front of the tee-markers. My tee remains in the ground and you replay the stroke using my tee. In effect, we have both played from the exact spot. At the end of the round, this is brought to the attention of the Committee.

I am disqualified and you are penalized two strokes.

You have replayed from a wrong place (two strokes). I have not played the ball from the teeing ground into the hole (DQ).

Fair ??? Perhaps not.

Equitable ??? YES

The integrity of the game must be maintained.

The game has to be played with some "basic" principles underlying the Rules. None of these principles is more "basic" than an accurate reporting of the score.

I have tried to explain the player's responsibilities with respect to the scorecard. I have also expained exceptions to the Rule in unusual circumstances.

I am not willing to "acknowledge" the unfairness of the Rules, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[4jag]

Not to split hairs Gary but you seem to contradict yourself...

Fair ??? Perhaps not.

How is this not acknowledging an unfairness in the rules? (oh, I hate double negatives )

[Gary Hill]

I did not say is was not fair. I acknowledged that some may not think so.

It may seem like splitting hairs to you, but there is a WORLD of difference between fair and equitable.

Equitable is understood to mean "evenhanded application".
What is "fair" usually depends on your point of view.

I do not wish to argue the semantics of "fair", but I do believe ALL the Rules are equitable to the players.

You cannot "in equity to the rest of the field" have an unsigned scorecard, but also "in equity to the player" you are not held responsible for a marker who is unwilling or unable to sign your scorecard. I see no dichotomy within the Rules on this point.

[natgolfer]

In your example above about my hitting out of bounds, both you and I made mistakes and by the rules should be penalized. I hit OB, you played from a wrong spot, I played from the wrong place, and by the way, I used a piece of your equipment, the tee, so I guess I should be penalized some more. I can accept all of that without question.

However, what I vehemently disagree with is my being penalized because you did not pull the pin that you were attending for me. I have absolutely no control over whether you are going to pull the pin or not.
I did everything right; you did something wrong, so I get penalized. Therefore, your not pulling the pin causing me to get penalized, according to the rules, is RIGHT, because you do not get a penalty. Sorry! This is not acceptable to me, even though it is the rule and a stupid one at that. It's FAIR that I be penalized for the mistakes that I make: it's not FAIR the I be penalized for the mistakes that you, as my fellow competitor, makes. That is my point. Please don't tell me that I have to assume the responsibility for your actions. Yes. It's the rule, but it's S T U P I D.

[Gary Hill]

A tee is not part of a player's equipment.

Would you feel the same way if it was your caddie who accidentally forgot to remove the flagstick?

(Careful, this is a trick question)

[em69]

I'd fire him on the spot.
Bye Bye

[natgolfer]

I accept responsibility for the actions of my caddie for he is an extension of me. If he screws up, I am responsible, I get penalized. That's fine.

But you, as my FELLOW COMPETITOR, can only gain by NOT pulling the plug, and even if you did it deliberately, but say you didn't, I still get penalized, because according to your Walter Morgan reply, you have to accept the players' word that he did do it deliberately. The simplest solution is to replay the shot.

BTW, playing in the Whig Standard at Cataraqui one year, and while looking for a FC's ball on number 4, I sent "George," my caddie, to stand by my ball. A moment later I turned around and there was George with my ball in his hand. After being penalized for his action, I still made par on the short par 5, but George did not caddie for me during the 2nd 18 that day.

[Gary Hill]

Could you tell me which Rule states that the caddie is an extension of the player?

You have incorrectly interpreted my comments about Walter Morgan.
A Rules official is under no obligation to accept the word of the fellow-competitor.

re: The simplest solution is to replay the shot.

If I don't pull the flagstick the second time, you replay the stroke again?
If I don't pull the flagstick the third time, you replay the stroke again?
If I don't pull the flagstick the fourth time, you replay the stroke again?

[natgolfer]

Sounds like you're getting cranky.

By extension, I obviously mean that if my caddie makes a mistake, eg., touches the line of my putt, I get penalized.

I guess the simplest solution then would be to replay the shot and to disqualify him for not pulling the flag.

Anyway, the rule is not going to change so the best thing to do is to never have the flag attended, even if you cannot see the hole. Now, that's reasonable. isn't it?

""The word intention means "player's intention", so if he Walter Morgan says he was did not intend to hit the ball, then the Rules say the movement of the club was not a stroke.""
""A Rules official is under no obligation to accept the word of the fellow-competitor.""
Do these statements not contradict each other?

[Gary Hill]

The Rules are EXACTLY the same for a caddie or another person attending the flagstick.
If they incur the penalty while in your service, YOU get penalized.

You have taken two separate statements out of context, neither of which would be used on its own to make a ruling.

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by natgolfer
Sounds like you're getting cranky.

If I know Gary, nothing could be further from the truth. Gary loves a good rules debate (being the authority is a plus). Don't worry, he just likes to speak in absolutes. This or that.
Not much wiggle room in the rules, but the application to individual cases is very interesting.

[Gary Hill]

If there was no wiggle room in individual cases, I would be out of a job.