Swing Speed

[mberube]

I never said that launch monitors help players play better. I was merely using this known scientific matter used by pros to confirm that science is a major part of golf. There is an optimal position in the golf swing and that applies to every one.

read on:

http://www.golfweb.com/story/6786687

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...4/ai_109467575

[golfCOACH]

Wow... lots of interesting stuff here. I'm seeing alot of the blind leading the blind here, but for all you doubters out there....BC Mist has alot of real information here.
You guys want a swing that conforms to laws of physics, geometry and physiology/biomechanics. Hit the gym boys.. build up those stabilizers (pilates) to you can hold those "big muscles" in place so they don't throw you right on your ***...... and see a reputable instructor.

[Thimble]

the most telling sign about hitting power was when i was watching a long drive competition....

most of the competitors were your usual big dudes (over 6', over 200 lbs, etc.).

one of the top competitors was a 17 yr old kid, maybe 130-140 pounds, and was shorter than me (i'm 5'9.5"). he was one of the longer competitors and hit the ball over 350 yards with a smooth, well balanced swing.

i think your hips and legs provide the maximum potential power through how fast they can get you from position A to B.

i think that your arms, especially forearms, provide maximum realization of that potential established by your lower body. how much your wrist hinges and how late you're able to unhinge it determines how much power you can transfer.

the 17 yr old kid had tremendous flexibility of both the shoulder and wrist turn. the shaft was almost vertical at the top of his swing. and while he may have been skinny, he had those fast twitch muscles that natural athletes have that most of us can only dream of. hey, it's why an MLB pitcher can throw over 90mph and regular guys in peak physical shape and perfect form will only reach maybe into the mid 70s...

[golfCOACH]

Flexibility and strength are huge in the golf swing, but the strength comes from being able to apply force through your muscles and still remain stable, square, and in posture. I was on the same impression about the legs and hips because look at Jack, Arnie, and young Tiger. The only thing is that this way is old school, before video, fitness, and equipment changes. Tiger has the fastest most level hip turn in the game, but its bitter sweet. He needs to clear his hips that early to get that heavy golf club to come through. Now that he's bigger and stronger, he's slowing it down. If you can get your hands on early video and recent video, his hip turn and rotation has quieted down alot compared to that kid with the straw hat we saw winning a few US AM's in a row.
I'm not a bunt by any means, but when I can get similar distance hitting drivers off my left leg and also on my knees, it tells me that my legs are not there for distance, they are their for accuracy.... stability leads to accuracy. Stronger legs will allow me to swing my torso and arms faster and keep me in balance, and if my positions and angles are good, I can hit it farther.

[BC MIST]

Flexibility and strength are huge in the golf swing, but the strength comes from being able to apply force through your muscles and still remain stable, square, and in posture. I was on the same impression about the legs and hips because look at Jack, Arnie, and young Tiger. The only thing is that this way is old school, before video, fitness, and equipment changes. Tiger has the fastest most level hip turn in the game, but its bitter sweet. He needs to clear his hips that early to get that heavy golf club to come through. Now that he's bigger and stronger, he's slowing it down. If you can get your hands on early video and recent video, his hip turn and rotation has quieted down alot compared to that kid with the straw hat we saw winning a few US AM's in a row.
I'm not a bunt by any means, but when I can get similar distance hitting drivers off my left leg and also on my knees, it tells me that my legs are not there for distance, they are their for accuracy.... stability leads to accuracy. Stronger legs will allow me to swing my torso and arms faster and keep me in balance, and if my positions and angles are good, I can hit it farther.

It is refreshing to see that you are another golfer who "gets it" regarding the importance or relative lack of importance, of the legs/hips in creating club head speed. My perception is that we are still in the minority, however, we are gaining converts.

Tiger's pre Hank Haney swing was very upright. His Hank Haney swing is much flatter. When one has an upright swing, the downswing has the hands and the club shaft well above the shaft axis plane created by the address positiion. Without excessive lateral body motion and a blocking action of the hands/arms, he would hook the ball. The "fast hips" mentioned above and the blocking action, both of which are tough to time, caused Tiger to miss a huge number of fairways to the right. With his flatter swing plane he is now able to get the club shaft closer to the ideal swing plane(ideal mechanical advantage-the physics term) where the club shaft will release naturally. This has resuted in more accurate drives and longer too, as he is making more consistently solid contact.

If you think of the golfers who have or have had very upright swings, including long drive contestents, you will notice that they have a signicantly larger amount of leg drive. This is not for power but it is necessary to compensate for the fault of having an upright swing. Because one FEELS the legs or hips move or because it is obvious that they move when you watch a swing like this, many say that the legs are a MAJOR source of power. Not so.

A golfer whose left arm(for righties) coincides with the shoulder plane when viewed from down the line, and who has right elbow on or just below the shaft axis plane is in perfect position. That combined with a motion of the hands BACK, DOWN and OUT, will result is pure ball striking. Guys with upright swings, and yes, there are exceptions, are streaky players.

IMO, the 4 best ball strikers ever were Ben Hogan, Moe Norman, Lee Trevino and George Knudson. All of them had shoulder line backswing positions, and interestingly, all had wider than normal stances.

Golfers will believe what they want or what someone else tells them to believe, but if they want to improve more rapidly, they should allow the lower body motion to balance and stabliize the downswing, swing down with the arms and club shaft ON PLANE, keep the right wrist BENT through impact and have the hands come around on the through swing. If they DON'T want to reach their potential, drive the legs, spin the hips and swing down the line.

All golf swings have several levers in them, but there are 4 levers (Power Accumulators) that are most important in developing club head speed. Your wrist, arm and left shoulder levers create the bulk of the speed. (Unless Jim MacLean tells you otherwise )

[golfCOACH]

I just read the whole thread and it looks like Shawn... aka HOMER... has been working with Eric Cook too long. Pressure point #5 Ambramsen? Is this where you went that extra hole on your belt? LOL. Just kidding.... Shawn is extremely intelligent when referencing TGM. Now that he has been [ersonally trained by the PreZ of TGM, Joe Daniels, he can identify swing faults as fast as anyone.
I had a practice session with my coach today.. yes, even pros have instructors. We studied Tiger in '99, '01, and now under double-H. Using the vector launch monitor we were proving through ball speed that explosive power with the legs and hips only made shot patterns stray. Ball speed and clubhead speed remained very similar.
I've read alot of articles relating to this one plane swing. I'd be very careful discussing this and putting it into action. When this article came out in golf mag or golf digest I was amazed at the YOGI's he put as his images. Terrible pictures and terrible examples. I think this one plane swing business is crazy and it will soon be proved wrong. How can the club stay on one plane if I am lifting my arms up over my shoulders?

[Powerdraw]

are we talking about a zero shift plane by any chance?
could someone describe or direct me to a link about what hes talking about as the single plane? i would guess its not TGM

who is eric cook?

[Chieflongtee]

are we talking about a zero shift plane by any chance?
could someone describe or direct me to a link about what hes talking about as the single plane? i would guess its not TGM

who is eric cook?

Eric Cook is the founder of the Swingsync system and is based out of Ottawa. Also a sponsor here. He builds clubs with the same frequency across the set and also the same MOI.
http://www.swingsync.com/

[BC MIST]

I've read alot of articles relating to this one plane swing. I'd be very careful discussing this and putting it into action. When this article came out in golf mag or golf digest I was amazed at the YOGI's he put as his images. Terrible pictures and terrible examples. I think this one plane swing business is crazy and it will soon be proved wrong. How can the club stay on one plane if I am lifting my arms up over my shoulders?

Here we go again. Terms like ON PLANE and ONE PLANE are use frequently in these discussions, however, they sometimes have very different meanings.

Upright swings can be effective, however, you better have world class talent to be able to loop it back ON PLANE, like Furyk, or block with the arms like Tiger used to do.

If the ONE PLANE swing where, at the top of the backswing viewed from down the line, the left arm coincides with the shoulder plane and the right elbow is on or below the shaft axis plane, ( http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp) "Top of the Backswing", then this is great. If the golfer tries to keep the hands on the shaft axis plane, then good luck.

[golfCOACH]

I'm still not convinced on this 'one' plane business. If you put someone on video starting with their address position, in order for a 'one plane' swing, you would have to draw a line straight through the clubshaft and the clubshaft would have to stay on this line throughout, which is impossible. Wouldn't you have to start with your arms and clubshaft on the same plane too? If you're trying to say the the clubshaft returns to the initial address position plane, then ok, but between takeaway and the top of the backswing, the club goes through more than 1 plane. A "plane" is a straight line and I have never seen any golfer be able to keep the club on one line throughout the swing, whether you draw a plane that goes from the ball through the shaft or from the ball through the rear shoulder.

[Powerdraw]

that would be called a zero shift in tGm and ive seen tiger do it in 2000's swing except for hands down at setup. it wouldbe been perfect if he lined up the right forearm with shaft at address.

remember fellas, we are speaking of ideal optimal strokes without personnal preferences wich we all have.

could someone resume what is advantage of not only being on plane but staying on it before up down after?
thanks

[golfCOACH]

Being on plane, or rather, in proper positions, encourages proper biomechanical functions... i.e. bad grip leads to faulty backswing positions and improper club release. Having correct lines and angles simply allow golfers to generate maximum power without giving up accuracy. Being on plane through the ball also encourages staying in balance. Correct positions throughout the swing allow you to generate appropriate power without having to manipulate the clubface so it squares at impact.

[BC MIST]

I'm still not convinced on this 'one' plane business. If you put someone on video starting with their address position, in order for a 'one plane' swing, you would have to draw a line straight through the clubshaft and the clubshaft would have to stay on this line throughout, which is impossible. Wouldn't you have to start with your arms and clubshaft on the same plane too? If you're trying to say the the clubshaft returns to the initial address position plane, then ok, but between takeaway and the top of the backswing, the club goes through more than 1 plane. A "plane" is a straight line and I have never seen any golfer be able to keep the club on one line throughout the swing, whether you draw a plane that goes from the ball through the shaft or from the ball through the rear shoulder.

What is commonly referred to as a SINGLE plane swing means that the path traced by the hands on the backswing,(on a two dimensional screen or photo) will follow the shaft axis plane until about waist high, when the path rises up so that the left arm coincides with the shoulders. Also, the right elbow will end up on or just below the shaft axis plane.
Look here: http://www.golfbetterproductions.com/the-swing.asp second shot down.
Golfers who play close to this way are: Hogan, Moe Norman, Knudson, Zach Johnson, Fred Funk(almost),Chad Campbell, VJ(almost) and many, many others. All are/were very accurate ball strikers.

As the downswing begins the path of the hands shift down to the shaft axis plane and the club shaft will end up coinciding with the same shaft axis plane and the right forearm. (See photo #4 Half Way Down) This NOT a true single plane swing as there is a plane shift and as was mentioned above, it is impossible to accurately relate a 3 dimensional "circular" golf swing to one dimensional straight line, or a plane which is two dimensional. To really swing on ONE plane, back and down, the golfer would have to be a contortionist.

Part of what made Moe Norman such a great ball striker was that after taking the club back below or under the shaft axis plane and crossing it slightly at the top, he got his hands and club shaft back on to the shaft axis plane SOONER than anyone that I have examined, and the hands stayed on that same plane to impact.

The best illustration of being on the correct plane, would be if you attached a laser pointer to the hosel of an iron and the light bean faces the ground at address. As you come down, when the beam is below your hands, it points directly to the target line extended to the right, and will stay on the target line past the ball until waist high in the through swing. This is why the hands come around after impact and not down the line. For your hands to go down the line you will be off plane to the right and that's where your ball will go.

[BC MIST]

Having correct lines and angles simply allow golfers to generate maximum power without giving up accuracy. Being on plane through the ball also encourages staying in balance. Correct positions throughout the swing allow you to generate appropriate power without having to manipulate the clubface so it squares at impact.

Beautifully put. If you look at the "Half Way Down" shot from the link I mentioned immediately above you will see that the club shaft and the right forearm coincide and are aimed at the ball. I believe these are referred to as "force vectors" meaning that they will both straighten to the ball, providing both distance and accuracy. Before Haney got Tiger his club shaft was too vertical at this point and he had to block everything. Now, his downswing is much flatter and he is hitting it better.

[dlaville]

First off, the line of compression is an invisible (of course) line that passes through the head of the golf club, through the re-compressed golf ball, towards the target.

Only with a swingers dual horizontal hinge action because the clubface closes through impact. With angled hinge action or the cut or lob shot the Line of compression faces down the angle of approach which is towards right field.

[dlaville]

i thought the idea was 'aiming right field' thus the flat left wrist is pointing that way, no? if it is, then how can you possibly have a clubface square to the target?
is aiming to right field only a thrust direction issue? is that what i should grasp?

Swingers use an arc of approach which is a centered arc around the left shoulder. Hitters use an angle of approach which is a straight line motion out towards right field giving an uncentered motion.

[dlaville]

What's with this 2 degree open. It is the 2nd time I've read this statement on this forum and on a web site. Unless you can show me a video to back up that data I think that statement is bunk. See if you can hit a nail with a 2 degree open freaking hammer at impact. Look out.

The clubface is open at impact but square at seperation. The club swings in a circle around the left shoulder and if you were to observe the path of the club from above it would be a curve through impact with the clubface constantly rotating closed. Remember the ball is on the clubface up to 3/4" while it compresses. The ball does not leave the face immediatly. If it did you would never compress the ball.

On to my point. While the ball is being compressed inertia holds it against the clubface while the clubface continues to rotate closed. There is high speed photographs you can find on the net showing this happening with a driver. Hence the clubface is open at impact but square at seperation.

[dlaville]

Check this out lads: your clubface is square to the target at set up, yes?

Only with vertical hinging. Swingers who use horizontal hinging set up with the face more and more open the longer the shot to allow for closing through impact. Hitters who use angled hinging set up with the face more and more closed the longer the shot to allow for the laying back through impact. With vertical hinging the clubface is the same at impact and seperation allowing it to be set square at address.

if it doesnt you are forced to do a haphazard wrist/hand flip to steer the clubface. now THAT sounds like work to me. maintain your pressure points #4 and #5 and the clubface returns to the ball exactly the same way, every time.

Pressure point #5?

[dlaville]

pressure point no5??? new edition out?

The new 7th edition is at the printers and AI's will be getting their copies in February, hopefully.

[dlaville]

Ok....thats how we're gonna play it. first of all, bc, you end your messages with "educated hands blah blah blah, mark evershed". in fact sir, you are qouting the wrong person. mark evershed is not owed the credit for those statements. they belong to homer kelley. yes, homer kelley. i would love to have that disputed because i can prove it beyond a doubt.

Mark Evershed use to be an authorized instructor of TGM.

i may not state the obvious because i give the people credit. when i do state things, though i get the source right. and for the record, i am one of the only Golf Machine trained teachers in the country.

It's Golfing Machine and are you trained or authorized?

[dlaville]

I'm still not convinced on this 'one' plane business. If you put someone on video starting with their address position, in order for a 'one plane' swing, you would have to draw a line straight through the clubshaft and the clubshaft would have to stay on this line throughout, which is impossible.

Not necessarily.

Wouldn't you have to start with your arms and clubshaft on the same plane too?

The Golfing Machine recommends this. More precisely it recommends the right forearm and shaft be in line and on the same plane at address. If you look at most golfers their shaft is much lower at address than it is at impact. You'll also notice their right forearm and shaft aren't in line at address but they are at impact.

If you're trying to say the the clubshaft returns to the initial address position plane, then ok, but between takeaway and the top of the backswing, the club goes through more than 1 plane.

It's called a plane shift and most golfers go from the address shaft plane to the turned right shoulder plane.

[BC MIST]

The clubface is open at impact but square at seperation.

Thank you, David. I have stated this fact on this forum a number of times, but strangely, I have not been believed. It was actually Mark Evershed who pointed this out, years ago.

In relation to a pure draw, there are those who erroneously believe that to hit this shot, the face is square at impact with an inside path. Science says, "No," and the ball hooks left of the target line.

[Powerdraw]

Originally Posted by shawnabramsen
First off, the line of compression is an invisible (of course) line that passes through the head of the golf club, through the re-compressed golf ball, towards the target.

Only with a swingers dual horizontal hinge action because the clubface closes through impact. With angled hinge action or the cut or lob shot the Line of compression faces down the angle of approach which is towards right field.

this is interesting. i thought all normal stroke needed a right field feel line of compression. what happens if i think right field and try HH? leakage? push?

with AH, too right field, isnt there a push tendancy? or right of target line fade?

[golfCOACH]

So if there's a plane shift then how can there be a 1 plane swing? Doesn't the term 'shift' kill that theory?
Dlaville, I give you credit for going through the program (not a posted AI?) but I've found it difficult explaining this to players. You don't explain it to your students like that, do you?

[golfCOACH]

Oops.. my bad.... an AI way down south in Louisiana. What does the "non-teaching" mean?

[BC MIST]

The Golfing Machine recommends this. More precisely it recommends the right forearm and shaft be in line and on the same plane at address. If you look at most golfers their shaft is much lower at address than it is at impact. You'll also notice their right forearm and shaft aren't in line at address but they are at impact.

This would then mean that the golfer is in a SINGLE AXIS address position. What a novel idea!!! If the golfer gets into the position where "their shaft is much lower at address than it is at impact," then the angle formed by the right forearm and the club shaft is OBTUSE, but at impact the angle has to be STRAIGHT(180*). On the downswing the whole upper body must backup to achieve this straight angle position. Therein lies one of the weaknesses of traditional setup position.

[dlaville]

Thank you, David. I have stated this fact on this forum a number of times, but strangely, I have not been believed. It was actually Mark Evershed who pointed this out, years ago.

On thing I have learned through years of posting in golf forums is that people believe what they want no matter how wrong it may be or how wrong you prove it. If they believe 1+1=5 you won't change their mind no matter how many times you show them 1+1=2. Let them believe what they want and don't lose any sleep over it.

In relation to a pure draw, there are those who erroneously believe that to hit this shot, the face is square at impact with an inside path. Science says, "No," and the ball hooks left of the target line.

Certainly!

[Powerdraw]

dave, if it will make you feel better, i do believe 1+1=2
i do believe your math is right. lol

[dlaville]

this is interesting. i thought all normal stroke needed a right field feel line of compression.

I think you may be confusing feel with what actually happens. Impact is always inside-out and this is where you may get that right field feeling. Swingers use an arc through impact so while they still may get that inside-out feeling through impact the club still traces the plane line (swings on plane). Hitters use a straight line motion out towards right field because the club traces an inside-out straight line angle of approach giving the club a slight above the plane follow through.

what happens if i think right field and try HH? leakage? push?

You'd probably hit a perfect swingers shot! Remember, you're always aiming at the inside-aft quadrant which is a out towards right field motion.

with AH, too right field, isnt there a push tendancy? or right of target line fade?

You would think there is a push tendency but clubs are built with a slight hook face alignment to divert the ball from its true tangential path. But you are right, angled hinging gives a fade because of the laying back motion of the clubface.

[Powerdraw]

so one should turn machine left of target for a AH swingers swing? keerect?
but should one turn machine right of targetline for a HH swingers swing? see, ive heard and theoratically have learned that any hinge gives straightaway ball flight with correct impact, that it should theoratically make trajectory differences, but then you see Tomasello speaking of distance vs shot shape and direction, whats your view?