Swing Speed

[Powerdraw]

shawn...you mean you are a GSED? an AI? say it aint so...Shawn, please send me a PM concerning your whereabouts, do you have a school, we must make something happen...

and, Mark Evershed use to be a student of TGM if i'm not mistakin, took a big chunck of it to teach his stuff, but actually, every teacher does not knowingly. Mark has his pattern down straight. and a good one at that i hear.

[BC MIST]

I would sure like to know where all this hostility is really coming from.

Ok....that’s how we're gonna play it. first of all, bc, you end your messages with "educated hands blah blah blah, mark evershed". in fact sir, you are quoting the wrong person. mark evershed is not owed the credit for those statements. they belong to homer kelley. yes, homer kelley. i would love to have that disputed because i can prove it beyond a doubt. i may not state the obvious because i give the people credit. when i do state things, though i get the source right.

The only person that I have heard use the three “necessities” of a swing that I use at the end of a post is Mark Evershed and that is why I gave him the credit. Had I known that they came Kelley, Tomasello, O’Grady, Boomer, Jones, or whomever, then I would have put their name at the end. Why you get your shorts in a knot over this is strange. In Mark’s “Knowledge” video he gives full credit to Kelley and Tomasello for making him “see the light.”

and for the record, i am one of the only Golf Machine trained teachers in the country. i don’t care what anyone agrees with because Physics and Geometry rule the golf swing.

Earning your G.S.E.D. is a major accomplishment and for that you are to be commended. I do agree that the golf swing is physics and geometry, as you have stated, and I would also include anatomy, physiology, and neuroscience. Having the correct knowledge is essential and being able to communicate this knowledge to your students is even more important. My knowledge of TGM is limited to what I have picked up from the Manzella, Blake and Evans websites, from Myles Tobin years ago when he loaned my Kelley’s book to read and from a few discussions I had with him, from the work of Mark Evershed, whose fundamentals I gather are based on TGM, and similarly from Mac O’Grady. I don’t know how close Mac’s MORAD project is to TGM, but the simplicity of his swing motion is amazing.

If you dont think the lower body helps the swing-fine. I suppose those PGA tour players dont know what theyre doing because theyre all flat footed, right?

If you read my previous posts you will find that I did NOT say that the motion of the lower body was unimportant. In fact, this is exactly what I said, “The motion of the body is absolutely essential to striking the ball long and straight. The legs must move forward, the hips and shoulders must rotate and the right shoulder must move under the left as was suggested.” Whether intentional to manipulate the meaning of what I said to prove you/them right and/or me wrong, you and two or three other posters suggested that I was recommending that a golfer swing with JUST(allenhouston) his arms, which I did not say. This kind of crap is unfair and if reasonable debate is to take place then a little honesty would be appreciated.

and what does moe norman being dead have to do with what i said?

You said, “Arnold Palmer is essentially a pure hitter. So is Moe Norman. Neither is renowned for their length.” What kind of response do you expect when you make reference to 75 year old Arnie being a short hitter, and to Moe who is dead, in the present?

I will be happy to explain more to those who want it, but im not in the mood to argue with people that refute laws of physics

Where I did I refute any of the laws of physics? All I said was that I believe that the MAJORITY(51% or higher) of club head speed comes from the action of the arms/hands. If that is categorically wrong then I would love to see some proof, instead of the mudslinging and insults. Am I asking too much? You are emminently qualified. Enlighten me/us.

Perhaps we are not as far a part as it seems. A closer reading of what was actually written might clear up a lot.

[BC MIST]

Mark Evershed use to be a student of TGM if i'm not mistakin, took a big chunck of it to teach his stuff, but actually, every teacher does not knowingly. Mark has his pattern down straight. and a good one at that i hear.

Careful. Mark believe's that 75% or so of the power in a golf swing comes from the "educated hands and the on plane arms." If you buy into his stuff you might have to watch the ball fly straight and true.

[Powerdraw]

BC, educated hands and on plane arms are the purest form of TGM. Where is the other 25% hiding? i can here pivot from way out here in french country.

[BC MIST]

BC, educated hands and on plane arms are the purest form of TGM. Where is the other 25% hiding? i can here pivot from way out here in french country.

I don't remember what Mark's breakdown of the numbers is, but Jack Keuykendall's are 1.5% for the lower body moving forward, 4.5% for the body rotation, 18% for the arms as a package moving down and 76% is movement of the right hand around its wrist hinge, the shortening of the radius of a large arc.

Regardless of the numbers and the method used to make the calculations,(individual results may vary) it is quite apparent that the motion of the arms and hands is paramount for producing speed, but it is also essential that the body move into a balanced, stabilizing position, as well.

[themob]

Say your AW maxes out at 100 yards. Take 5 full swings so that the ball flies 20,40, 60, 80 and 100 yards, focusing solely on swinging your arms. What does your body do? It just responds to the ever increasing arm speed by moving a little faster to get itself into a balanced position for the arms to swing through.

I have to say, this may be a revolutionary thing for me... but it makes sense. I think i have always thought the exact oposite, but in fact this is probably the case. In order to swing faster, i have made my body do things to accomodate my arms, but in reality the arms are moving faster so the body has to react accordingly.

[zhangtony]

How do you get the conclusions of 2 degrees open before hitting or on hitting the ball for straight shot?

It's very compiclate for analyzing the golf swing. You need avdanced Math and Physics to prooof it!!

Let me give one simple example, the swing speed is 100miles/hour. how much time will it cost to travel the distance like half an inch? The length from your hands to the driver's head is about 45". Go ahead, how long for the circle with 45"" radius and 2 degree angle?

I doubt there are few guys to answer this question correctly! It's just one simple model to proof what you said is true or not.

There are no math model to simulate the golf swing for the people. The simulator can only caculate the data based the force impact on the ball. It's one dimensional data. Form my understanding of the golf swing, at least consider three dimensional data for simulating the golf swing for man.

One word, the golf swing is art, not the science.

I have tested my swing on a simulator pad that has dozens of lasers reading the club from 12 inches before to 1 foot past the ball. It tells you your angle of attack coming in the ball, the degrees open or closed at impact and after impact. It’s amazing how 1 or 2 degrees changes ball flight.

2 degrees seemed to be the perfect trajectory depending on angle of attack. Most of the time I was In-to-out too much. I was 11 degrees inside path with a 2 degree open face. The trick is to get a in-to-out 4 degree angle of attack and an 2 degree open club face.

Mike

[mberube]

How do you get the conclusions of 2 degrees open before hitting or on hitting the ball for straight shot?

It's very compiclate for analyzing the golf swing. You need avdanced Math and Physics to prooof it!!

Let me give one simple example, the swing speed is 100miles/hour. how much time will it cost to travel the distance like half an inch? The length from your hands to the driver's head is about 45". Go ahead, how long for the circle with 45"" radius and 2 degree angle?

I doubt there are few guys to answer this question correctly! It's just one simple model to proof what you said is true or not.

There are no math model to simulate the golf swing for the people. The simulator can only caculate the data based the force impact on the ball. It's one dimensional data. Form my understanding of the golf swing, at least consider three dimensional data for simulating the golf swing for man.

One word, the golf swing is art, not the science.

Everything in golf is tested through science. Golf balls, equipment… are all tested on a robot that swings the club. All the major companies like TM, Callaway, Ping all test their touring pros with computers. If someone would have told Bobby Jones that a 14-degree launch angle it the optimum launch for maximum distants he would have told them that they were crazy. Most if not all touring pros launch it at that angle today. Science proves that.

Everything in sports is science today. Nobody can deny that.

I have seen that data and tried it for my self. I have also read data on the net stating that 2-degrees open clubface is where you need to be at impact. It was a while back and I have not saved the links but look it up if you don’t believe me. The ball reacts on how the club arrives to it. That means that there is an optimal angle.

I’m not here to convince you. I just stated my experience.

Mike

[buckylasek]

Mberube, your totally right, but you forgot to say that a lower ball angle makes it take less wind, and maybe these things were tested and aproved, i think golf isn't all about physics, or it would be so boring.

[mberube]

Golf is a lot about feel, I won’t deny that but the physics must be dead on for you to be successful. I am aware that 2-degrees is not the only impact position for success. This all depends on how you come in to the ball.

Is 14-degrees launch angle the only way you can drive the ball off the tee? No but you better be if you want to maximize your driving distance. It’s the same thing with ball flight and trajectory.

I’m not saying that I intentionally hit the ball 2-D open at impact. That’s impossible but you can surely set up a practice tool to help you achieve the desired position.

Mike

[buckylasek]

It meens i should go further with my 3 wood ( actually14 degrees ) than with my driver?

[Samick]

To me, the best way to hit the ball farther is to relax and have good timing and rhythm with contact on the sweet spot. Relaxed muscles are faster than tight ones.....and if your timeing and rhythm are good the better chance of solid contact.....

Who ever had a stupid layup shot dunk into the pond you were laying up from?

[mberube]

It meens i should go further with my 3 wood ( actually14 degrees ) than with my driver?

What is written on your club is the loft. The launch angle is the degree the ball takes off. The launch angle depends on the club face angle at impact, angle of attack ….. For example if your hands are in front of the ball at impact, you 14 degree 3W loft is now 12 degrees or less. This would give you a low ball flight.

The launch angle and spin rate can be measured with a launch monitor.

Mike

[zhangtony]

If science is so powerful that robot could act like human being exactly. There are
many issues the science couldn't deal with.

It doesn't matter if you set up your club open or close. You will response to hit
the ball with square face for sure. Because we are human being. The god laugh when human being think.

The golfers will lost if focus on the details too much. The only thing the golfer can do is to focus to hit the ball on the sweet spot of the club. More you can hit, better you score. Human's body is flexible. No science could model how energy transfer within our body. Even the example you gave like 14-degree launch angle, it's not a problem for the touring pros at all. It doesn't matter the launch ange is 14 degree, or 11 degree, etc if your swing speed is over 110 miles/hour. Your distance still goes the long way and your ball is still in the middle of the fairway. That's the goal when you hit your driver.

Everything in golf is tested through science. Golf balls, equipment… are all tested on a robot that swings the club. All the major companies like TM, Callaway, Ping all test their touring pros with computers. If someone would have told Bobby Jones that a 14-degree launch angle it the optimum launch for maximum distants he would have told them that they were crazy. Most if not all touring pros launch it at that angle today. Science proves that.

Everything in sports is science today. Nobody can deny that.

I have seen that data and tried it for my self. I have also read data on the net stating that 2-degrees open clubface is where you need to be at impact. It was a while back and I have not saved the links but look it up if you don’t believe me. The ball reacts on how the club arrives to it. That means that there is an optimal angle.

I’m not here to convince you. I just stated my experience.

Mike

[buckylasek]

Yes i agree, science kills the game spirit, before it was more fun, do you imagine another sport where so many scientists analyse things? Because if they do so, it's just to make money.

[mberube]

Even the example you gave like 14-degree launch angle, it's not a problem for the touring pros at all. It doesn't matter the launch ange is 14 degree, or 11 degree, etc if your swing speed is over 110 miles/hour. Your distance still goes the long way and your ball is still in the middle of the fairway. That's the goal when you hit your driver.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. My driver swing speed is 116Mph. I hit the ball 280Y regularly. Change my driver to a 7-degree loft with a shaft that is way too stiff and I won’t get to 250Y. That's a 30+Y difference. I’m I swinging differently or is it science that is taking over?

Have you ever seen or tried a launch monitor??

[buckylasek]

What you're tired of launch monitors? I think they like lowers trajectory, because the ball is less subject to the wind, and it travels faster. I don't think most people need a 7° loft, but for me , 9.5 Works perfectly, and it works better than 10.5, what you forget to say is for MOST players 14° is ok, but most players don't hit like pro's do.

[GolfOttawa]

Question
Before I ask this question I would like to say that I am only interested in your opinions not your arguements as it is just a question and not my opinion.
Question: why does the iron byron test robot hit the golf ball so far and accurate without leg drive or body movement? Would you be satisfied with the ironbyrons ability to hit a golf ball, even if you new that you could get 25% more yards from it if it had legs and used body rotation?

Thought; I have read that a player can hit a 7iron 150yrds with two hands and 130yrds with his right hand only! this proves to me that the body does have some input on the yardage a ball is hit.but it also proves that it can also affect the yardage as many players can consitently hit the ball 130yrds with one hand but are up and down with their yardage with two hands on the club, is it because the 25% or so the body is involved can be so harmfull or benificial that you either give up distance or gain it depending on that one variable(the body). Would you rather be consistent or Long mayby short when faced with a important shot.

Again just questions with many answers, I am just asking and would love to here your thoughts on this. I am not disputing that the body and legs are important but just wondering if there is a reason that only a few talented players make the arms and body work consistently and if you think that if we all became arm,quiet body players that the handicaps would come down.

[buckylasek]

You are wrong, for a right handed golfer, power is given by left arm.

[GolfOttawa]

buckylasek
Question: what's your thoughts on the ironbyron question?

[Chieflongtee]

You are wrong, for a right handed golfer, power is given by left arm.

Swing a club with the right hand only then record the distance. Then do the same with the left.Tell me with which arm you got the most distance. Can you hit the ball as hard with a forehand or a backhand?

[Chieflongtee]

Question
Before I ask this question I would like to say that I am only interested in your opinions not your arguements as it is just a question and not my opinion.
Question: why does the iron byron test robot hit the golf ball so far and accurate without leg drive or body movement?.

What is Iron Byron's swing speed at full blast?

[GolfOttawa]

Chieflongtee

I am not sure what the actual swing speed full out is but I have heard that the iron byron swing speed can be regulated to suit the test requirments.

[buckylasek]

Swing a club with the right hand only then record the distance. Then do the same with the left.Tell me with which arm you got the most distance. Can you hit the ball as hard with a forehand or a backhand?

Sorry, can't compare that, i tried, and you should see handi golf. For a right handed person, left arm is more important, maybe you're like darth vador....

[Chieflongtee]

maybe you're like darth vador....

I believe you are talking about Luc in Star wars. I still maintain that the right hand/arm has more influence than the left.

[Chieflongtee]

Anyway who's wright and who's wrong? Take a look at the following pics from the site you were refering to.
http://handigolf.ifrance.com/


P.S: En passant le père Noël est une ordure.

[mberube]

I think it all depends on how your body normally generates power. Personally, I generate my power from the right side.

Daly and VJ both generate power from the left side and they stated this on numerous occasions. How can you dispute that?

As for the robot question, if I could swing my arms like Iron Byron repetitively and accurately without body motion, I would take It without a second thought.

Mike

[buckylasek]

Mberube is right, i'm like John Daly, and the pics are negatives ;p

[zhangtony]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. My driver swing speed is 116Mph. I hit the ball 280Y regularly. Change my driver to a 7-degree loft with a shaft that is way too stiff and I won’t get to 250Y. That's a 30+Y difference. I’m I swinging differently or is it science that is taking over?

Have you ever seen or tried a launch monitor??

Maybe you don't understand what I said fully. Even you use the same driver and hit
10 balls. Your ball launch angles will be in the range from 11 to 15 degrees assume you
are not a bad golfer. It doesn't mean you must use 7 degree loft driver to achieve
14 lauch angle.

I already said, the simulation model for the launch monitor is based one dimensional
data. It couldn't simulate the golf swing from human being at all. It's just a tool.
I doubt any PGA tour players to practice their swing based on the launch monitor.
The function of the launch monitor just help them understand the golf swing more but
couldn't help them to hit the ball better. It helps the golfers to expierence different
drivers from different specifications. You will be disappointed if you can depend
on the launch monitor to find your best driver. You can only find your best driver
when play on the golf course.

[buckylasek]

i play links 2003 and the lower i hit the ball, the further it goes.