Swing Speed

[Powerdraw]

How does one increase swing speed without having to go for a lighter shaft and without coming out of his shoes?

right shoulder gives initial direction and acceleration, keep it going until lowpoint of swing and your in the winners circle. i totally agree about the pivot, legs core, giving the big powerblow but note how much that right shoulder controls that big core. If not controlled, the right shoulder will bring you off plane, a throwout action. As you mentionned a shot put or a hammer throw, i like that alot.

[Chieflongtee]

Ask

Slicer

Here is a great drill to learn how to hit the ball straight and long. Tee-up a ball very high, stand on your knees and hit balls with your driver. When you get the hang of it you will be amazed how far and straight you can hit it off your knees. This drill will eventually creep in you real golf swing and make you hit longer.

Mike

Better not let anyone see you do that. Seriously did you perform that drill with the club at full length? This would almost be a baseball swing.

[Powerdraw]

sounds like golf digest article tip. in fact it is.

[mberube]

Better not let anyone see you do that. Seriously did you perform that drill with the club at full length? This would almost be a baseball swing.

It’s is and that’s the point. This drill is widely used to train juniors. Most juniors try to swing too much from the hips. This drill inhibits them to use the hips and makes them feel the arms in the golf swing. I am not saying that you should swing the club like you do on your knees. It’s a drill and the point is to activate your arms. Most if not all amateurs swing the body a lot more then they should. If you cant hit the ball performing this drill it means that your body is a lot more active that it should be.

“Baseball swing” Have you ever notice the Pros on TV like Tiger and Cink just to name a few make their practice swing path about knee high with the driver. The Hit Man can hit 300Y off his knees. He can also hit 300Y off one foot.

If you can get Tigers frame by frame swing in 2000 you will notice that there is very little body movement from the second frame downswing to the first frame to past impact position. That is 4 power frames with arm movement and a fraction of body movement. We all know how far he hits it.

Does it work for everybody? I don’t know but It works for me.

[Powerdraw]

interesting.

[BC MIST]

right shoulder gives initial direction and acceleration, keep it going until lowpoint of swing and your in the winners circle. i totally agree about the pivot, legs core, giving the big powerblow but note how much that right shoulder controls that big core. If not controlled, the right shoulder will bring you off plane, a throwout action.

Considering the principle of CAUSE and EFFECT, is your recommended movement of the shoulders the CAUSE of putting the arms ON PLANE, or is the EFFECT of the shoulders moving correctly, CAUSED by the motion of the arms?

You wrote, "If not controlled, the right shoulder will bring you off plane, a throwout action." IF this can happen, then why focus on moving the shoulders in the first place? Focusing on hitting the inside quadrant of the ball means that the arms must drop first(ON PLANE) and your ideal shoulder movement will naturally follow.

Now, what might cause the shoulders to go off plane? Usually, it is the rotation of the body(hips) horizontally, which causes the shoulders to move off plane, and on OTT swing results. Even Hogan said that he moved the left hip left(horizontally) at the start of the downswing. But if you observe Hogan's arms/arms as he started the downswing, they moved down(vertically). So what he said was that a horizontal movement of the hips caused a vertical movement of the arms. Science says that this is impossible. Hogan FELT the hips move, but he had also trained his arms to drop down on plane, and beautifully, too.

Regardless, if by feeling your shoulders doing what you want, you get your arms in a good position, that is all that counts.

[Powerdraw]

i agree.
but the arms do not get the right shoulder on plane, the hands will follow direction of the right shoulder so for your arms to go down and not out that right shoulder should go down but also stay BACK. what hogan says about hip vs shoulder i would think ressembles a HOOLA-HOOP action, not scienctific i know, but sure heck sounds like it and anybody can learn to do that with the correct image in the noodle. i say focus on right shoulder too keep the hands from going out, for plane, for support for power.

you say tomato me say tomatoe...lol! as you surely know, different images for different strokes, arm drop has never worked for me. right shoulder has and swinging my hands under my right shoulder has increased my good impact position, but thats my key.

[BC MIST]

i agree.
but the arms do not get the right shoulder on plane, the hands will follow direction of the right shoulder so for your arms to go down and not out that right shoulder should go down but also stay BACK. what hogan says about hip vs shoulder i would think ressembles a HOOLA-HOOP action, not scienctific i know, but sure heck sounds like it and anybody can learn to do that with the correct image in the noodle. i say focus on right shoulder too keep the hands from going out, for plane, for support for power.

you say tomato me say tomatoe...lol! as you surely know, different images for different strokes, arm drop has never worked for me. right shoulder has and swinging my hands under my right shoulder has increased my good impact position, but thats my key.

If it works, it's right!!!

[Jeany]

muscle memory,tempo and wrist

[Powerdraw]

i'd like to hear more about this 'muscle memory' thing....does it really exist?

[BC MIST]

i'd like to hear more about this 'muscle memory' thing....does it really exist?

Muscle memory does NOT exist. Doing a little research into how the brain functions with respect to learning an athletic motion like a golf swing, will quickly confirm that the brain controls all athletic movement.

Silly as this sounds, if you have never done a particular motion, you cannot do this motion, as your brain has never established the electrical circuitry necessary to perform the motion. A golfer who has always swing outside in, can never swing inside out, until he has swung inside out. Once he has done this correctly, he begin the establishment of this electrical circuitry and the greater number of times he does it correctly, the better he will be able to do it correctly when he plays. You have to develop a pattern of electrical signals so that the body can make the motion and this is done through hours of CORRECT practice.

“According to Stephen Kosslyn's and Oliver Koenig's book, WET MIND, the brain performs four actions to initiate and control movement. They are:
• ACTION PROGRAMMING,
• INSTRUCTION GENERATION,
• MOVEMENT EXECUTION
• MOVEMENT MONITORING
“The INSTRUCTION GENERATION part of the brain receives the program from the ACTION PROGRAM which stores and computes a sequence of instructions for a brief period before and while they are executed. MOVEMENT EXECUTION activates and controls the muscles that produce the movements…. And MOVEMENT MONITORING engages in learning and trajectory computation. In the learning phase, it acquires a model of the joint angles, their angular velocities, and the corresponding motor commands. Movement monitoring determines the trajectory that requires the smallest changes in torque. A movement command is entered that corresponds to the one specifying the present position of the limb, and the estimated position of the limb compared to the desired target position. The deviation between the estimated position and the target position is then used to send a correction signal backwards. The proper movement commands are those discovered by movement monitoring in the course of computing the trajectories. The error-correction feedback led movement monitoring to minimize the torque and develop the smoothness performance index.”

Once enough motions are made correctly the circuit moves to a lower part of the brain, is an overlearned skill and you never have to think about it again. You will perform the skill correctly EVERY time, unless you do two things, and these two things are what most golfers do and, IMO, are the reasons why most golfers perform well below their potential. Anyone interested?

Muscles may be conditioned, but they have NO memory.

[zoic]

Muscles may be conditioned, but they have NO memory.

Precisely, but our brains do. This is why after a while seeing-thinking-doing just becomes seeing-doing, hopefully in a correct manner of course. Our brains continually store images in our cortex, that are auto associated with tasks we perform, combining all our senses for input and output, making corrections as needed.

I am quite sure that sometimes trying to overthink what your body is doing, or change it, is the major cause of hitting a bad shot when you normally hit a good one.

[Powerdraw]

Muscle memory does NOT exist. Doing a little research into how the brain functions with respect to learning an athletic motion like a golf swing, will quickly confirm that the brain controls all athletic movement.

Silly as this sounds, if you have never done a particular motion, you cannot do this motion, as your brain has never established the electrical circuitry necessary to perform the motion. A golfer who has always swing outside in, can never swing inside out, until he has swung inside out. Once he has done this correctly, he begin the establishment of this electrical circuitry and the greater number of times he does it correctly, the better he will be able to do it correctly when he plays. You have to develop a pattern of electrical signals so that the body can make the motion and this is done through hours of CORRECT practice.

“According to Stephen Kosslyn's and Oliver Koenig's book, WET MIND, the brain performs four actions to initiate and control movement. They are:
• ACTION PROGRAMMING,
• INSTRUCTION GENERATION,
• MOVEMENT EXECUTION
• MOVEMENT MONITORING
“The INSTRUCTION GENERATION part of the brain receives the program from the ACTION PROGRAM which stores and computes a sequence of instructions for a brief period before and while they are executed. MOVEMENT EXECUTION activates and controls the muscles that produce the movements…. And MOVEMENT MONITORING engages in learning and trajectory computation. In the learning phase, it acquires a model of the joint angles, their angular velocities, and the corresponding motor commands. Movement monitoring determines the trajectory that requires the smallest changes in torque. A movement command is entered that corresponds to the one specifying the present position of the limb, and the estimated position of the limb compared to the desired target position. The deviation between the estimated position and the target position is then used to send a correction signal backwards. The proper movement commands are those discovered by movement monitoring in the course of computing the trajectories. The error-correction feedback led movement monitoring to minimize the torque and develop the smoothness performance index.”

Once enough motions are made correctly the circuit moves to a lower part of the brain, is an overlearned skill and you never have to think about it again. You will perform the skill correctly EVERY time, unless you do two things, and these two things are what most golfers do and, IMO, are the reasons why most golfers perform well below their potential. Anyone interested?

Muscles may be conditioned, but they have NO memory.

great thinking here, totally agree.

[kewarken]

I think that muscle memory is simply a misnomer. I'm sure that no one is seriously proposing that muscles have some magical way to remember things on their own. It's just describing the fact that once you've learned how to do something, your body tends to remember how (like riding a bike). Once your brain knows how to tell your body to do something, you no longer need to actively think about doing it and it's as if your body is doing it all on its own.

I haven't needed to actively think about skating, walking, riding a bike, running, hitting a tennis ball or volleyball in years. I still have to think a lot about swinging a golf club or a hockey stick though. It's not yet natural. I haven't developed "muscle memory" which I take to mean, "the unconscious performance of a physical task".

cheers,

Kris

[BC MIST]

I'm sure that no one is seriously proposing that muscles have some magical way to remember things on their own.

Oh, but there are many golfers who actually do.

So I guess that when they hit a good shot it's muscle memory, but what happens when they hit a poor shot? Did the muscles forget?

[Andru]

Oh, but there are many golfers who actually do.

So I guess that when they hit a good shot it's muscle memory, but what happens when they hit a poor shot? Did the muscles forget?

Their brains hit the override switch. Try signing your name while thinking about the mechanics of writing.

[shawnabramsen]

Greetings All
I would like to quote a very informed source: "Those who have strength, hit (arms), those who have speed, swing(legs & hips) and those who can, should do both".
The one thing perhaps overlooked is that hitting and swinging are different methods of using a golf club to achieve the same goal. However, most local pros teach one or the other because: A) they don't know the difference between the two or B) they think the average joe six-pack isn't talented or coordinated enough to combine them. Let me assure you, most PGA Tour players blend hitting and swinging. Arnold Palmer is essentially a pure hitter. So is Moe Norman. Neither is renowned for their length. The big hitters on the block blend hitting and swinging. The physics of rotation cannot be ignored because the user of the golf club is ignorant of the applicable laws of physics.
BC Mist, I have one word for you: "D'oh!!!"
Know what I mean? Nudge nudge.
By the way....how are those Imperatives and Essentials working through the Stations?
Sustaining the line of compression, are we?
Goooood.

See ya.

[Powerdraw]

shawn, could you go into more detail and explanation on the 'how to' and what is line of compression, especially the how to?
thanks.

[shawnabramsen]

Back so Soon!
Wow I could re-write a book on this stuff. Where to begin? Hmmm......First off, the line of compression is an invisible (of course) line that passes through the head of the golf club, through the re-compressed golf ball, towards the target. Ideally, the straight line connects these points when the clubface is pointing to the target. Keep in mind, this is when the ball is leaving the clubface.....not at initial impact. As a rule of physics, to hit a straight shot the clubface is NOT square to the target at impact. It is about 2 degrees open. As the ball compresses and slightly rolls up the clubface, the club is going from an open position to a less open position in the forward swing motion. The club is still doing this as the ball is compressing. The point of separation is the only time you want the clubface square to the target. That being said, the only way to repetitively do this is to maintain your flat lead wrist at impact. The reason for this is simple: if you grip the club properly, whatever you do to the back of your lead hand you do to the clubface. so, at impact, if your wrist is flat and vertical, the clubface is square at separation everytime...and the line of compression is sustained.
Did that help? If not let me know and i'll try again.

Cheers!

[Powerdraw]

yes it did help but...
i thought the idea was 'aiming right field' thus the flat left wrist is pointing that way, no? if it is, then how can you possibly have a clubface square to the target?
is aiming to right field only a thrust direction issue? is that what i should grasp?

(and yes, i'm back so soon...i'm a TGM ho. )

[shawnabramsen]

Im not sure i understand what you mean by "aiming right field". Im not familiar with that term. the concept of thrust direction is directly tied to the line of compression. if the thrust direction is off the line of compression.....youve just discovered how to impart side spin on the ball.

[shawnabramsen]

by the way, that smiley face at the end of your post reminds me very much of Eric Cartman. I like that.

[Powerdraw]

hehe...

well, i think the FEEL is thrusting towards right field but the pivot and hinge action gets its back towards target-left...i'm just trying to find a way to explain this without saying 'swing along the targetline' wich i think is wrong. what are your thoughts on this?

[Chieflongtee]

. As a rule of physics, to hit a straight shot the clubface is NOT square to the target at impact. It is about 2 degrees open. As the ball compresses and slightly rolls up the clubface, the club is going from an open position to a less open position in the forward swing motion. The club is still doing this as the ball is compressing. The point of separation is the only time you want the clubface square to the target. .

Cheers!

What's with this 2 degree open. It is the 2nd time I've read this statement on this forum and on a web site. Unless you can show me a video to back up that data I think that statement is bunk. See if you can hit a nail with a 2 degree open freaking hammer at impact. Look out.

[Powerdraw]

chief...good point...but....
ever seen a nail compress? no...it does not. that is the difference. You mustve seen guys on tour pound a driver on SWINGVISION...youve seen how much that ball gets compressed against the clubhead-face...2 degrees is about what is needed to go from slightly open face, by the time ball has unstuck too the face its about 3/4s of an inch later in the swing! think about it..., that clubface is closing throughout this time so?

well, if its square when you start compressing the ball it, it will be closed when ball jumps off the face or enough closed to be left of intended target.

if its slightly open and when you hit it, once compression is over, it will leave the face in the straight position. now how does someone control 2 degrees and be on plane? yikes...work mate work!

[mberube]

What's with this 2 degree open. It is the 2nd time I've read this statement on this forum and on a web site. Unless you can show me a video to back up that data I think that statement is bunk. See if you can hit a nail with a 2 degree open freaking hammer at impact. Look out.

I have tested my swing on a simulator pad that has dozens of lasers reading the club from 12 inches before to 1 foot past the ball. It tells you your angle of attack coming in the ball, the degrees open or closed at impact and after impact. It’s amazing how 1 or 2 degrees changes ball flight.

2 degrees seemed to be the perfect trajectory depending on angle of attack. Most of the time I was In-to-out too much. I was 11 degrees inside path with a 2 degree open face. The trick is to get a in-to-out 4 degree angle of attack and an 2 degree open club face.

Mike

[shawnabramsen]

Check this out lads: your clubface is square to the target at set up, yes? without swinging, simply rotate your hips, and slightly transfer your weight forward to simulate the impact position. note the clubface opens ever so slightly. it must do this. if it doesnt you are forced to do a haphazard wrist/hand flip to steer the clubface. now THAT sounds like work to me. maintain your pressure points #4 and #5 and the clubface returns to the ball exactly the same way, every time. thats the difference between a hitter and a swinger, for the most part anyway. theres more than one way to skin a cat and theres more than one way to launch a golf ball. the easiest, most repetitive way is to recognize impact and ball separation as two different events. the next step is to recognize that the clubface is constantly closing on the forward swing and ball position is crucial in making sure the ball leaves the clubface when the clubface is square to the target. make no mistake-it cannot be in both places at once. wrap your coconut around that and you can hear the sound of one hand clapping.
enjoy!

[BC MIST]

Greetings All
I would like to quote a very informed source: "Those who have strength, hit (arms), those who have speed, swing(legs & hips) and those who can, should do both".
The one thing perhaps overlooked is that hitting and swinging are different methods of using a golf club to achieve the same goal. However, most local pros teach one or the other because: A) they don't know the difference between the two or B) they think the average joe six-pack isn't talented or coordinated enough to combine them. Let me assure you, most PGA Tour players blend hitting and swinging. Arnold Palmer is essentially a pure hitter. So is Moe Norman. Neither is renowned for their length. The big hitters on the block blend hitting and swinging. The physics of rotation cannot be ignored because the user of the golf club is ignorant of the applicable laws of physics.

BC Mist, I have one word for you: "D'oh!!!"
Know what I mean? Nudge nudge.

No, I don't. If there is something that I have said that you feel is incorrect then just say so, offer what you believe to be the correct information and the source of that information. Only then can I decide is there is any validity to your points.

Most of what you wrote in follow-up posts I agree with, however, two things stick out. 1. There was no mention of club head path in your point about the open face at impact and square at separation and while the assumption is obvious, should it not have been stated? 2. When you say this, 'I would like to quote a very informed source: "Those who have strength, hit (arms), those who have speed, swing(legs & hips)...,"', I don't consider the information credible because the legs and the hips provide only a very small fraction of a 100 mph swing speed.

Going to an impossible extreme: a. How far can you hit the ball immobilizing the legs/hips? b. How far can you hit the ball immobilizing the arms?

BTW:
1. Arnold Palmer was a long hitter in his prime.
2. Moe Norman is dead

[Powerdraw]

pressure point no5??? new edition out?

[shawnabramsen]

Ok....thats how we're gonna play it. first of all, bc, you end your messages with "educated hands blah blah blah, mark evershed". in fact sir, you are qouting the wrong person. mark evershed is not owed the credit for those statements. they belong to homer kelley. yes, homer kelley. i would love to have that disputed because i can prove it beyond a doubt. i may not state the obvious because i give the people credit. when i do state things, though i get the source right. and for the record, i am one of the only Golf Machine trained teachers in the country. i dont care what anyone agrees with because Physics and Geometry rule the golf swing. If you dont think the lower body helps the swing-fine. I suppose those PGA tour players dont know what theyre doing because theyre all flat footed, right? and what does moe norman being dead have to do with what i said? of course he's dead. it doesnt change the fact that when he used a golf club he was a hitter, not a swinger. please don't attribute educated hands to Mr. Evershed. They are not his concepts and they are not his quotes. The credit goes to Homer Kelley. And frankly, if you haven't read Homer Kelley, you don't have even close to the information on the golf swing thats out there. If its not Physics and Geometry, it's just someone's stroke pattern. Good teachers dont teach stroke patterns-they teach laws. Its up to the student to use their best abilities to get as close to that as they can. And that swing becomes THEIR stroke pattern. I will be happy to explain more to those who want it, but im not in the mood to argue with people that refute laws of physics. that equates to rejecting the concept of gravity as you step off the roof of the tenth floor. whether you agree with gravity or not, the pavement will explain it to you when the ride down is over.

Have a Nice Day