Question about pured/spined shafts?

[Big Johnny69]

Just a question for all you clubmakers out there. I have a driver shaft that came with instructions to install it with a certain logo in the 12:00 position. The shaft came from the company pured/spined and was painted accordingly to be installed with the logo in that position. When I picked up the shaft the logo was installed in a position between 12:00 and 1:00. Just wondering what type of performance can I expect over the recommended installation position. Thanks for any replys.

[Chieflongtee]

Depends on the shaft. Some shafts have the same cpm's all the way around the shaft while other have one full flex difference between the neutral bend point and the spine. Only way to find out is with a)frequency meter b) shaft clamped and twanged with a laser pointer attached to the head c)shaft twanged while clamped(no wobbling indicates correct position)
See the following video
http://www.horsepowergolf.com/VideoSpineFrequency.asp

[Big Johnny69]

Chief, it is an UST Tour Reserve 65 (approx. 74g weight, s-flex). Have you had any experience with these or are you familiar with them?

[Chieflongtee]

Can't tell you for sure but UST has come a long way as far as spining is concerned re: logo up directly on the spine. That 5 wood you had and traded had no wobbles when clamped. You'll have to have someone check it out for you.

[Big Johnny69]

But just based on your knowledge of spining and shafts in general what do you think this position will have on the performance. Like I said it is between 12 & 1. It isn't off by much, but for sure the logo is not straight up at 12:00.

[Chieflongtee]

Again I have not checked it. But in all honesty probably not much.

[Big Johnny69]

The tech from where I had it done told me he once had a Blue spined and because it was positioned with logos up (he didn't like logos up) so he had the shaft re-oriented with logos down and said he didn't notice a difference. Which makes me wonder about spining/puring altogether. Is it really worthwhile, but I guess that is for another thread?

[jvincent]

Geoff, check out the following for a good explanation on spines and what to do.

http://www.csfa.com/tech35.htm

[Chieflongtee]

Logo up or logo down is the same as spines run across 180 degrees and NBPs are 90 degrees from the spine. That being said club spining won't correct a swing flaw. If you put on a bad swing to the ball the shaft orientation won't help you much. Basically a good orientation will provide more center hits. Don't believe that a certain position will suddenly make you draw or fade the ball. Have you ever tried hitting balls with a decal on the club face?

[Chieflongtee]

Ever read this Geoff.

http://www.csfa.com/techframe.htm


Wobble



NOTE 3: If you get into the hairiest of mathematics you'll find any shaft has two natural frequencies and they are always located 90 degrees apart on the shaft. At one point you will get one of these frequencies and by rotating the shaft 90 degrees you'll get the other. If the shaft is flexed anywhere in between both frequencies will be excited and the two will beat against one another causing the shaft to wobble. The two frequencies in a steel shaft or a filament wound graphite shaft are generally very close such that very little wobble will occur. In wrapped graphite shafts this is not always the case due to the seam and wobbling can be pretty wild. I've seen as much as 12-cpm difference between these two frequencies in some shafts. If a shaft is regular along one axis and stiff along the other how do you install it in the club? It's best to buy good shafts. Again the frequency analyzer is a great quality control device. By the way, that vibratory gyro I mentioned in an earlier Tech Note had its two natural frequencies matched to a small fraction of a part per billion. Like I said it wasn't a cheap device.

[Big Johnny69]

Thanks John for the article. After reading it all I can say is HUH? I really don't understand all of the explanation. From what I gather they are trying to locate the spine to install the shaft properly. If so, my shaft has had the spine already located, so I was wondering what type of effect this would have on the performance of the shaft. Can you help me out with any of this if I am not reading it correctly?

[Chieflongtee]

Thanks John for the article. After reading it all I can say is HUH? I really don't understand all of the explanation. From what I gather they are trying to locate the spine to install the shaft properly. If so, my shaft has had the spine already located, so I was wondering what type of effect this would have on the performance of the shaft. Can you help me out with any of this if I am not reading it correctly?

Take it back to your clubmaker if it is a concern. After all that is why you got that shat in the first place.

[Big Johnny69]

Logo up or logo down is the same as spines run across 180 degrees and NBPs are 90 degrees from the spine. That being said club spining won't correct a swing flaw. If you put on a bad swing to the ball the shaft orientation won't help you much. Basically a good orientation will provide more center hits. Don't believe that a certain position will suddenly make you draw or fade the ball. Have you ever tried hitting balls with a decal on the club face?

Chief, I don't expect to fade or draw the ball with a spined shaft. I do expect more centre hits if spining allows for the maximum performance of the shaft. And no I don't expect the shaft to fix any swing flaws. I purchased the shaft because it has been spined so I know I would be getting a shaft designed for maximum performance.

[Chieflongtee]

Geoff, check out the following for a good explanation on spines and what to do.

http://www.csfa.com/tech35.htm

Exactly and bang on John. Geoff what John means is if you locate a spine you will find the exact same thing 180 degrees from it.

[Big Johnny69]

OK thanks for the explanation Chief. That would explain why that tech I spoke about early noticed no difference in performance. But what about less than a 30 degree shift in installation? If the difference in performance is negligable then I won't have it re-oriented. But if as small of a change as 30* makes a large difference in how the shaft performs then I will have it re-oriented.

[jvincent]

Geoff,

Take a look at the circle plot in the article.

What it means is there are two stable axes, the N axis and the S axis. You can align either one to the target and if you have it perfectly aligned, they will both be stable. The shaft stiffer is when the S axis is pointed to the target.

But perhaps more importantly, when the N axis is pointed at the target the shaft is MORE stable / less affected by imperfect alignment.

The best analogy I can think of is a football. You can balance it on it point, but it will fall easily. But balance it on it's seam, and it will wobble but not fall.

And to prove that the universe is freaky, the very second I typed the word wobble, a Weebles ad came on the TV. I was considering using a Weeble analogy but switched to football.

[Big Johnny69]

Sooooooo, if I am understanding all this technical speak, if the proper orientation of the shaft was say to move 90* from proper orientation the shaft would not perform as well? It seems everything is based on moving around the "clock" at positions 12,3,6,9. Not alot of talk what happens if the shaft is moved in lesser degree increments.

[Chieflongtee]

Again tough call. Most filament shafts and steel don't wobble. Wrapped graphite does. Only way to find out is first explanation.

[Big Johnny69]

I appreciate all your help guys, but I am still not getting the answer I am looking for. So I guess to ease my mind I should just have the shaft re-oriented? Oh how my driver woes this season continues.

[Chieflongtee]

Geoff. Should we give you the answer you want to hear? Or the honest truth? Anyway I don't worry about spines with Mercury and Sk Fiber shafts as they guarantee all their shafts to be +- one cpm. Never found one that wobbled. Wish you lived closer. We could have this checked in less than 5 minutes.

[jvincent]

I think I know what you're asking now Geoff.

If your shaft was aligned with the N axis to the target line and you are at 1 o'clock, i.e. 30 degrees off, from the axis, you'll probably not notice it.

If it was aligned along the S axis, it will probably be wobbly.

Now the question is, will it actually make a difference? There's lots of debate on that one.

[Big Johnny69]

You know me Chief, always after the truth I was just hoping from past experiences perhaps someone could have answered my question. Perhaps builders have found orienting the shaft 10-30 degrees from the ideal position really doesn't affect playability. Perhaps playability is only affected when changing the orientation 45* or more. This is what I was wondering. Just hoping someone had maybe done some personal research to be able to answer a question like this.

[Big Johnny69]

I think I know what you're asking now Geoff.

If your shaft was aligned with the N axis to the target line and you are at 1 o'clock, i.e. 30 degrees off, from the axis, you'll probably not notice it.

If it was aligned along the S axis, it will probably be wobbly.

Now the question is, will it actually make a difference? There's lots of debate on that one.

Put it this way John, the shaft was painted so that a certain logo was to be placed in the 12:00 position (I should be able to see the logo when looking down the shaft at address) so whatever this axis is (N or S) is definately not pointed at the target. That would be 9:00 correct? But the shaft was installed with that logo between 12:00 and 1:00. So the shaft has been oriented less than 30* from the suggested factory positon. So I am wondering with such a minor re-orienting of the shaft will it put the shaft on a plane that will be detremental to my game. Shaft came from the factory with a suggested install position and the shaft was not installed that way, even with the sticker on the shaft that explained everything
Is 30* enough to negatively affect the shaft?

[Chieflongtee]

Ok. forgive my frenglish I'll try to explain as best as I can. Let's say there is a big spine on that shaft. The stiffest plane being the spine will be aligned in the 12-6 position and the weakest in the 9-3 position. Anything deviating from this position will make the shaft play a little stiffer or a little softer. When the shaft is not aligned properly the shaft wobbles and on centre hits are less consistent. If the shaft is put in a frequency meter and a whole bunch of readings are taken around the circumference of the shaft and if there is only a one cpm difference in all readings then it would not make any difference whatsoever in the shaft's performance. Anyway the best to epoxy a spined shaft is by clamping it and let it dry in that position. Eyesight is not good in this particular case.

[Big Johnny69]

THANK YOU CHIEF. So +/- 1 cpm does not affect playability, ok. Question: at what point does playability start to get affected +/-2,3,4 cpm. So the only way to know for sure Chief is to test the shaft before a head is put on?

[Chieflongtee]

THANK YOU CHIEF. So +/- 1 cpm does not affect playability, ok. Question: at what point does playability start to get affected +/-2,3,4 cpm. So the only way to know for sure Chief is to test the shaft before a head is put on?

Correct.According to clubmakers and my readings 10 cpms is equivalent to one full flex.So if there is a 10cpm difference between the soft and stiif planes you will be playing with a shaft with 2 different flexes. Also 4 cpms will make the shaft wobble and your on center hits won't be as consistent. See the video for a good view of the wobbling shaft.

[jvincent]

Put it this way John, the shaft was painted so that a certain logo was to be placed in the 12:00 position (I should be able to see the logo when looking down the shaft at address) so whatever this axis is (N or S) is definately not pointed at the target. That would be 9:00 correct? But the shaft was installed with that logo between 12:00 and 1:00. So the shaft has been oriented less than 30* from the suggested factory positon. So I am wondering with such a minor re-orienting of the shaft will it put the shaft on a plane that will be detremental to my game. Shaft came from the factory with a suggested install position and the shaft was not installed that way, even with the sticker on the shaft that explained everything
Is 30* enough to negatively affect the shaft?

I just took a look at a shaft PURE report, I ordered my last set of irons PURE'd.

If I'm reading it correctly, when installed in the recommended orientation, then the N axis is pointing towards the target, i.e. at 9 O'clock. To get this the PURE label should be at either the 12 or 6 o'clock position.

It's unlikely that such a small deviation would be noticeable, but if it's bugging you, you should probably change it because if lack of confidence in the big stick is in the back of your mind, you're hosed.

[Big Johnny69]

OK, logged on to the UST site and got some data about these shafts I have. Can anyone help me sort these numbers out.

Shaft #1 (has a GW CER 851TG head on it, 44.5") these specs done at UST (no head)

Random Assembly/ Hard Side Assembly

Angle -0 /+81.47

Load 0.985/ 1

Hor. Freq. 260.8/ 261.3

Vert. Freq. 268.0 /263.7

Vert. Dev. 0.102/ 0.040

Shaft #2 (has TM R7 head on it, 44.5")

Angle +0 /+70.37

Load 0.976/ 0.996

Hor. Freq. 257.8 /260.2

Vert. Freq. 258.5 /262.3

Vert. Dev. 0.341 /0.061

(Vert. Dev. means vertical deviation)

So does this make sense to anyone? Does it help to determine if my shaft will not be effected by being oriented approx. 30* off of proper position? Is there enough of a cpm difference to affect playability?

I appreciate all help and input on this matter.

[jvincent]

Geoff,

Where exactly did you get the data? I think I know what it is saying, but putting it in context would help.

[The Saint]

Alot of great technical talk on spining can be informative yet confusing. In your situation however I wouldn't worry to much about it. There is alot of physics that get involved as well alot of variables (swing plane/tempo) to say whether or not a shaft moved off of its NBP will have an effect on making consistent centre face hits. To help you sleep at night bring it over to the house or drop it off on your way to work and I'll FLO it and put your worries to rest. If there is a difference and you're bothered by it you can take it back to where you had it shafted and have them orient it correctly. Make sure that the work is guaranteed, as you the know the shaft tip can be made weaker once it has been pulled and re-prepped. I haven't done enough testing of my own to provide you with the answer you're looking for.