40 yard gain with new shaft

[BC MIST]

The Cobras being closed face will effectively hit the ball a lot higher.

If my clubface is square I get a particular trajectory and direction. If my clubface is CLOSED, I get a lower trajectory and a hooking action, whereas if the clubface is OPEN, I get a higher trajectory and a slicing action on the ball. So, I don't understand the statement you made above. What am I missing?

All players wanting to maximize distance, forgiveness and accuracy. Larger, hotter Sweet Zone for superior distance across all nine points of the club face. Provides high trajectory with significant draw bias ball flight for longer, straighter shots

This statement form Cobra is fascinating and it typical of the lies or misleading phrases that their marketing people create.
1. When they say "maximize distance," they are referring to carry distance only, cconveniently leaving out roll as a factor in total distance.
2. "Larger, hotter Sweet Zone." There is only one center of percussion and any contact of the ball on the face away from the CP will result in less transference of energy to the ball and both distance and accuracy will diminish.
3. "Superior distance across all nine points of the club face." There are not 9 centers of percussion. Their inference is that you can get make contact virtually anywhere on the face and get "Maximum distance." Try making a high toe hit off a Cobra or any other driver and compare the distance and accuracy to a true sweet spot hit.
Why are they allowed to lie to us?

[Chieflongtee]

[QUOTE=BC MIST]If my clubface is square I get a particular trajectory and direction. If my clubface is CLOSED, I get a lower trajectory and a hooking action, whereas if the clubface is OPEN, I get a higher trajectory and a slicing action on the ball. So, I don't understand the statement you made above. What am I missing?


If your club face is closed on purpose by your swing action yes the ball will run low and hook. But if the club is purchased with a closed club face this has the effect of increasing the loft.

As far as Cobra I tried a 290 SS for a couple days. A friend had loaned it to me for reshafting.My launch angle was considerably higher and ball flight much straighter. The first time I tried it it had a steel shaft in it at 45 inches. I reshafted it with a EI 70 graphite at 43.5 and was still hitting it high and straight. It came with a closed face which I like. I know Cobra is in for the money but if you ask me they are pretty good darn clubheads. And I believe their statement about high ball flight. Besides higher ball flight means higher launch angles and possibly longer drives. But this is all guesswork as we'll never know unless we get on a launch monitor. Tell me my good friend: Is your angle of attack level or downwards or upwards?

[BC MIST]

If your club face is closed on purpose by your swing action yes the ball will run low and hook. But if the club is purchased with a closed club face this has the effect of increasing the loft.

So I guess you are saying that when the golfer twists the closed club face open, as he comes into the ball, in order to hit it straight, the effect is to increase the loft. This would mean that the golfer should buy a driver with less loft to get the correct loft at impact. Perhaps the $500 he would spend on a driver to compensate for opening the face through impact could better be spent taking a few lessons in order to give him a better inside approach to the ball.

And I believe their statement about high ball flight. Besides higher ball flight means higher launch angles and possibly longer drives.

Again, I would say that the words should be "possibly longer CARRY." High drives don't roll very far. A golfer who hits the ball fairly straight is better with a drive the flies less and rolls more. I agree that an erratic driver would benefit from more loft/high launch angle as there would be less side spin.

But this is all guesswork as we'll never know unless we get on a launch monitor.

Am I the only one who believes that the numbers on a launch monitor do NOT translate into the same numbers when the ball is hit from the first tee?

Tell me my good friend: Is your angle of attack level or downwards or upwards?

Yes. Yes. Yes. My two drivers are 7 and 8 degree heads. The former has a softer tipped shaft while the latter has a stiffer tipped shaft the effect of which is that the 7 goes higher than the 8 on a normal swing. Now, with both, I can hit the ball very, very high and with both I can hit the ball to whiz by your ears at 100 yards, by deliberately altering my angle of attack. I don't change ball ot tee height position. I also have a Wishon 9.5 head, I forget the model, and it has 3 trajectories - very high, very, very high and very, very, very high, all of which yeild me a significant loss of TOTAL distance.

When I look at the ball flight of the players I get drawn with in the local tournaments, no-one, with 1 exception, hits the ball high. The ball flights are driving or OUT there, not UP there.

[spackler]

Again, I would say that the words should be "possibly longer CARRY." High drives don't roll very far. A golfer who hits the ball fairly straight is better with a drive the flies less and rolls more.

Isn't this the opposite of the PGA players? I'm not comparing mine or anyone elses' game to theirs, but aren't their drives pretty much all carry with almost no roll? Perhaps this is because they are that much better than us and want to control their position more with flight than get max distance with roll?

[BC MIST]

Isn't this the opposite of the PGA players? I'm not comparing mine or anyone elses' game to theirs, but aren't their drives pretty much all carry with almost no roll? Perhaps this is because they are that much better than us and want to control their position more with flight than get max distance with roll?

You are correct. At 100 mph of club head speed, I need all the help I can get so if the fairways offer some roll, as most local courses do, then I must take advantage. However, at 125 mph of club head speed, the tour pros do NOT need roll as their huge carry allows good distance and better accuracy.

As I see it, low swing speed players would benefit from more carry, Tour pros gain in accuracy, and those of us in the middle, with swing speeds in the 90 to 105 mph range, sacrificing some carry for more roll would increase the net gain, providing the ball is hit with control.

[BC MIST]

Tell me my good friend: Is your angle of attack level or downwards or upwards?

Here is another example of why I do not trust launch monitors and the like to determine how far and straight I hit the ball OUTSIDE. I purchased Tom Wishon's trajectory software and here is what it determined for me, for my 7 degree driver at 100 mph and angles of attack of -5*, 0* and +5*.
-5* 188 yards of carry
0* 216 yards of carry
+5* 229 yards of carry

The reality is that, OUTSIDE, I hit the ball a paced 230 to 275 yards of net distance, but the software strongly suggests that I would be dozens of yards shorter.

The software says that I would get my maximum carry of 231 yards(-5* A of A) with a 12 degree driver, 225 yards(0* A of A) with a 13 degree driver and 234 yards(-5* A of A) with a 10 degree driver. Higher lofted drivers like the Wishon 9.5 degree that I mentioned above, project the ball at pitching wedge height, not more than 200 yards. I believe what I see, not that which is simulated.

Interestingly, Jack Keukendall, physisist, says that maximum distance can be obtained with a 5 degree driver, off a 3" tee with a significantly upward angle of attack. I wonder what lofts the LDA golfers use in their competitions???

[Chieflongtee]

Then again it depends on the driver. I am in the process of reading TW's book(search for the perfect clubs) and he states that the Golf gods can be fooled with a deeper driver(rearward center of gravity) with less loft. Launch angle is increased but ball speed is hotter.

[zhangtony]

There is no way for you to get the distance and accuracy at the same time.
If you hit the driver with a R shaft, your distance may increase a few yards but
you hit the hook and the slice sometimes.

If you hit the driver with a S shaft, your distance may decrease a little but you
just hit the push sometimes.

Of course, you have the speed to hit both of them. I hate the hook and choose
S to get rid of it.

Did you go from a stiff to a regular flex? Or the other way around? A friend of mine was on the launch monitor last summer after his clubs were stolen. He had been using a TM stiff and went to a 983K with a R shaft, he not only gained some yardage he gained a ton of accuracy too. He just did not swing the S shaft fast enough to get the clubhead through the ball. I did the same thing, only I did not go on the monitor (I will when I buy a brand new driver), I went from S to R and I am hitting it a bit longer and straighter now.

[Rusty]

I am a believer! I managed to get over 70 more yards from my driver today, all I had to do was take a lesson at the Danielle Nadon school in Orleans.

I was making good contact, but not getting the distance I wanted. I asked my instructor, Scott to show me the correct swing, and dang it my driver went 300 yards!! When he's hitting it, the shaft is perfect, I am pretty sure that after he hit about 10 balls with it, now it knows what to do.

Now that I have found out that the way to get more distance is to have someone else hit for me, the game should be a lot easier.(now getting him into one of those little pockets in my golf bag could be tricky.)

Kidding aside, after all of the talk about making sure that you get the right shaft, seeing him hit draw after draw over 280 yards, with my old Adams GT363 with the stock regular shaft makes me realize that I should worry more about my technique than the subtleties of the tools.

Rusty

[Cobraguy]

This thread has definately given me some insight. I didn't realize that the Cobra drivers have a closed face so it does explain a lot in terms of my swing. Lately a nice litte draw has shown up in my game (which turns into a screaming hook if I address the ball too close) with my irons and I attributed this to my driver doing the same thing with mis-hits. The curiosity though is that my address with my driver is way different than with my irons so it shouldn't have been there. See I'm a pretty wristy guy with my irons and tend to hit them longer than most of the guys I play with which serves me well however if I try to hit my driver the same way I hit my irons it tends to remove any chance of consistency. So what I have adopted is two different swing styles with my driver. I will usually address it way out in front of me off of my left heel (RH golfer) and that way I have a big sweeping swing without a high angle of attack. Serves me well but if I want to really bash the cover of of it I will open up my stance quite a bit and delay my release just a bit (such that it feels like I'm gonna spray it) and that allows me to power through the ball. In either case with the driver my angle is still very high. So what I am starting to hear is that its in the nature of the club head and not the shaft. This is good news because it saves me some money in that a) I'm saying to hell with the launch monitir and b) no new shaft for me. Don't get me wrong about my driver. I am very pleased with it in terms of the distance and accuracy in comparison to my old one ( I used to hit into the net at Thunderbird and now I hit over it) but just like anyone else I would love to see another 30 yards of roll at the end of my drive as opposed to knowing exactly where it landed.

[BC MIST]

There is no way for you to get the distance and accuracy at the same time.
If you hit the driver with a R shaft, your distance may increase a few yards but
you hit the hook and the slice sometimes.
If you hit the driver with a S shaft, your distance may decrease a little but you
just hit the push sometimes.

Posts 22 and 26 provide a little info on the relatively meaningless terms "R" and "S." Anyone have any findings to dispute my opinions?

[BC MIST]

I am a believer! I managed to get over 70 more yards from my driver today, all I had to do was take a lesson at the Danielle Nadon school in Orleans.

I was making good contact, but not getting the distance I wanted. I asked my instructor, Scott to show me the correct swing, and dang it my driver went 300 yards!! When he's hitting it, the shaft is perfect, I am pretty sure that after he hit about 10 balls with it, now it knows what to do.

Now that I have found out that the way to get more distance is to have someone else hit for me, the game should be a lot easier.(now getting him into one of those little pockets in my golf bag could be tricky.)

Kidding aside, after all of the talk about making sure that you get the right shaft, seeing him hit draw after draw over 280 yards, with my old Adams GT363 with the stock regular shaft makes me realize that I should worry more about my technique than the subtleties of the tools.

Rusty

Are you a member at Outaouais?

[BC MIST]

Then again it depends on the driver. I am in the process of reading TW's book(search for the perfect clubs) and he states that the Golf gods can be fooled with a deeper driver(rearward center of gravity) with less loft. Launch angle is increased but ball speed is hotter.

Tom also says in the book that the engineers, with all the sophisticated equipment, have the ability to see minute differences in launch angle and ball spin, that are not apparent in real life shots. Are we talking mouse farts here?

BTW: "Search for the Perfect Golf Club" is an absolute must read for anyone interested in their golf equipment. It is perhaps the most educational book on the subject that I have read and goes along way to get rid of the countless myths(R and S shafts being just one) that exist regarding golf club "science."

[Rusty]

Nope.

Rusty

Are you a member at Outaouais?

[dbleber]

Played two rounds now with my new shaft/combo. I have to say that there is a huge difference. With the speeder I had a very low blah trajectory that only carried about 225-230 yrds. I had no feel in the club and had a lot of dead shots. Now my ball flight is beautiful! It has a nice high but penetrating trajectory and it has such a great feel when it kicks. When I went to the 10.5 w/Speeder shaft for my 9.5 w/GD YS6+ shaft I saw a huge decrease in distance right away, my feel and confidence in the club were gone. The GD YS 6+ was a nice shaft but had a little to much back spin and after hitting some balls with my pro he sugested I go to a higher lofted club head but a low torque high bend point shaft, like the Speeder. Ended up not being a good match, I am very happy with the results after my Launch Monitor fitting sessions. With the new shaft yesterday I was bombing them out there and I noticed that not only my distance and accuracy went up but my confidence is thru the roof right now. A lot of that is due to the amount of feedback I get from this club now and there is always something about picking up your tee and giving your foursome a little grin as if to say, "Yes that was my ball that just blew past yours!". And my scores are down again. A lot of that is now I am hitting my approach shot with a wedge again and hitting more greens. I love 2 putt pars, take those all day long. I would recommend getting fit if you are having doubts about your equipement, the shot pattern, ball flight and distance are almost bang on to what the launch monitor picked up but now I can add the roll onto my drives which is even better!

[Chieflongtee]

Basically what this tells me is that the Speeder was too stiff for you or rather too stiff in some sections for your type of swing. This also tells me that the launch monitor session performed by someone very knowledgeable is worthwhile. A retail store might be a different story though as the volume is jacked up.

[dbleber]

Your right about the Speeder. The CPM was perfect for my swing but having the kick point that high up was not. My new shaft has almost the same CPM but the kick point is lower and gives me the ball flight and feel I am looking for. I would also agree that a launch monitor fitting at a retail store might not be as good as where I had it done. The knowlegde of a professional clubmaker is worth its weight.

[jvincent]

Denny,

What did you get your before / after launch angles and ball speeds?

Just curious.

[dbleber]

My launch angle before was between 6-7° at a ball speed of 140-145. After I was at 10°-10.5° with ball speed around 150-155 Marry carry yardage went from 225-230yds to 260-265yds, I forget the exact number for spin but it was around the 3000.

[jvincent]

My launch angle before was between 6-7° at a ball speed of 140-145. After I was at 10°-10.5° with ball speed around 150-155 Marry carry yardage went from 225-230yds to 260-265yds, I forget the exact number for spin but it was around the 3000.

Wow, your before stats bring a whole new meaning to low and slow.

Adding 10MPH alone will give you close to 20 yards and the increased launch angle is good too.

[dbleber]

The old setup was really bad for me. Not only did it make me feel like I should tee it up from the reds because of the distance but even a good drive looked and felt like crap. Very happy to watch the ball soar down the fairway or rough, I admit that I like to hit it longer then straighter. As long as I am not in the trees, I would rather a wedge from the rough then a 7 iron from the fairway.

["Richard"]

I had the r580xd and switched to the g2 driver with the prolaunch shaft, 55g, stiff and I added about 25 yards, not to my average but to my really good drives. I can make a huge difference.

[Chieflongtee]

I coincedendly posted that I had gained 40 yards from a shaft shange just a couple days ago. HMMMM

Let me tell you that I have played with Geoff and Mr. Saint and I think if they saw what how a new shaft has increased my distance they could report back that it is possible.

I had had a hard time swinging hard with my old shaft so there was some yardage gain there since the new shaft hold the itslef on my swingplane much better due to it lower torque rating. Secondly and most importantly it has added previously lost yards caused by a slice/fade.

I won't try to convince you that a shaft can make this much differnce because all that matters to me as I am hitting more fairways and thus getting much better scoring chances.

What kind of head are you playing i.e brand and loft?

[psniddy]

Cobra 454 comp at 10.5

[Chieflongtee]

Cobra 454 comp at 10.5

Mark my words. The reason you hit it longer in your was not the shaft change but the head change. The gain in distance was attributed to straighter shots. Instead of blocking it way right you were hitting it a lot straighter. A big block right will end up approx 40 yds further away from the pin. Been there done that. We don't know each other and I have never seen you play but I am pretty sure you will miss that Cobra head dearly. Just my honest opinion.

[psniddy]

Tested them head against head. The R5 TP was longer with a better ball flight and was straight. Thats not to say the Cobra wasn't great but I liked the extra distance.
I know Cobra has a larger sweet spot and ths is more forgiving on off centre shots, but that is something that I can control by practicing.
I guess what I am trying to say is that in the end the gains were actually throug a combination of things, swing chnge, shaft change, and the Cobra head. None of the chnages made the diference on their own but as a combination it really worked well.

[Chieflongtee]

Tested them head against head. The R5 TP was longer with a better ball flight and was straight. Thats not to say the Cobra wasn't great but I liked the extra distance.
I know Cobra has a larger sweet spot and ths is more forgiving on off centre shots, but that is something that I can control by practicing.
I guess what I am trying to say is that in the end the gains were actually throug a combination of things, swing chnge, shaft change, and the Cobra head. None of the chnages made the diference on their own but as a combination it really worked well.

Tested on a launch monitor? Or on the course under the same condition i.e same day,same type of ball, wind etc...?

[psniddy]

Tested on a launch monitor.

[downhillslider]

I wouldn't have thought so but today I was on the launch monitor trying to find the right shaft for me and with shaft A I was averaging a carry yardage of 235, with shaft B a carry yardage average of 265. Thats a big difference. All things equal just a different shaft. Now add that with the trajectory and a hard fairway and that would be a have decent drive in my books! Not to mention that with the different tip flexes i saw some difference in side spin which we all know the less the better. Can't wait to pick it up on Thursday!

Just curious as to why you would use a launch monitor to try and find the right shaft. Were you fitted for the Vista Pro originally ? Not all swings are the same, thus the infinite variety of shafts available. Most swings basically fall in to 4 categories. Each category welcomes a specific bend profile of shaft. Once you have established what category of swing you pocess,the proper weight and flex of shaft required for that category then what size of clubhead and effective loft based on what swingspeed you generate and what your budget is, you are of to the races. I am sceptical of these machines for fitting purposes.Launch monitors measure carry, not total distance.Only the gifted ones with pro-like swingspeeds require the coveted " high launch,low spin" Buzz Word ! Not all monitors are the same. Some use lasers, some use doppler radar,some have pre-programmed data,some are better suited for the outdoors, some are better suited indoors, (Why would anybody want to do anything that has to do with fitting golf equipment indoors ???) Also,beware of commercial grade monitors wich are the majority of the units out there. I would appreciate some feedback,
Thanks.