Am I obligated to identify?

[Gary Hill]

Just out of curiousity Gary. If I pump one so deep into the woods that I don't even want to bother to try to look for it, and just go ahead and play a provisional is that OK?
Also, if I have a whacky opponent who goes 30 yards into the woods and by some miracle actually finds my ball what the heck would I do? Waste 20 shots trying to hack thru the woods back to somewhere playable?
I realize the latter is an unlikely scenario, but I'd just like to know.

DO NOT PLAY A PROVISIONAL BALL!!!

Just reload without declaring it a provisional ball. The second ball automagically becomes the ball in play and the original ball is "lost" under the definition. That way, even if some smart guy runs into the woods and finds it, you are under no obligation to play it. It is no longer "your" ball.

If you do play a provisional ball and a whacky opponent finds it deep in the goulash, one of the unplayable options is to play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. At least that is better than 20 strokes to hack out the original ball.

[mberube]

DO NOT PLAY A PROVISIONAL BALL!!!

Just reload without declaring it a provisional ball. The second ball automagically becomes the ball in play and the original ball is "lost" under the definition. That way, even if some smart guy runs into the woods and finds it, you are under no obligation to play it. It is no longer "your" ball.

If you do play a provisional ball and a whacky opponent finds it deep in the goulash, one of the unplayable options is to play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. At least that is better than 20 strokes to hack out the original ball.

You also have the option to backup in line with the ball and the hole no limit to how far you can backup. This is a good option if it’s on a dog leg hole and you lost it on the short side. In some situation you can get backup in the fairway. This way you don’t loose as much distance.

Mike

[1972Apex]

I appreciate the reply Gary. I actually find this very interesting.
So basically, if I am getting this right, I am pretty much just declaring the ball lost right away and my second ball is now in play with of course a corresponding two stroke penalty. I hope that's correct.
Now what if I've played my second ball and we walk down the fairway and darned if my first ball isn't also in the middle of the fairway, presumably because it hit a tree and miraculously bounced out and nobody saw it? I presume I am now obligated to play the second ball and the first ball is still no longer my ball. Is that correct.

DO NOT PLAY A PROVISIONAL BALL!!!

Just reload without declaring it a provisional ball. The second ball automagically becomes the ball in play and the original ball is "lost" under the definition. That way, even if some smart guy runs into the woods and finds it, you are under no obligation to play it. It is no longer "your" ball.

If you do play a provisional ball and a whacky opponent finds it deep in the goulash, one of the unplayable options is to play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played. At least that is better than 20 strokes to hack out the original ball.

[bbad]

You also have the option to backup in line with the ball and the hole no limit to how far you can backup. This is a good option if it’s on a dog leg hole and you lost it on the short side. In some situation you can get backup in the fairway. This way you don’t loose as much distance.

Mike

If the forest/trees are NOT marked as a hazzard, you CANNOT use the point of entry and put it between you and the hole....You must either: find the ball (and then continue with the rules to see if the ball can be declared unplayable etc), declare a provisional (if you don't like it, or hit your prov and hope you hit it before your opponent finds it), or just hit a ball and now are 3 off the tee....you have no other choice...assuming there is no hazzard...

If so, then point taken

[el tigre]

Also, if I have a whacky opponent who goes 30 yards into the woods and by some miracle actually finds my ball what the heck would I do? Waste 20 shots trying to hack thru the woods back to somewhere playable?
I realize the latter is an unlikely scenario, but I'd just like to know.

Darn right it is unlikely. About 10 yards into the woods is as far as I will go. Geez, there are bugs and critters in there and stuff!

...or are you talking about your other whacky opponent?? In that case, that was no miracle - that guy has a lot of experience finding golf balls in the woods. I would stay out of there if I was you.

[Colby]

Reid,

Hit your provisional before he finds the ball. Nothing says you have to go look. So if it is your turn, go ahead and hit your provisional. If you take a stroke at it past the spot your original was most likely, it becomes your ball in play. Let him search all he wants, it's too late at that point in time.

[Gary Hill]

I appreciate the reply Gary. I actually find this very interesting.
So basically, if I am getting this right, I am pretty much just declaring the ball lost right away and my second ball is now in play with of course a corresponding two stroke penalty. I hope that's correct.
Now what if I've played my second ball and we walk down the fairway and darned if my first ball isn't also in the middle of the fairway, presumably because it hit a tree and miraculously bounced out and nobody saw it? I presume I am now obligated to play the second ball and the first ball is still no longer my ball. Is that correct.

You cannot declare a ball lost. However, you are effectively declaring the ball unplayable from the teeing ground. The penalty is only one stroke.

The original ball is no longer your "ball in play" even if you do subsequently find it. You may pick it up and put in your bag as a lucky charm.

[Gary Hill]

Reid,

Hit your provisional before he finds the ball. Nothing says you have to go look. So if it is your turn, go ahead and hit your provisional. If you take a stroke at it past the spot your original was most likely, it becomes your ball in play. Let him search all he wants, it's too late at that point in time.

RUN up and hit your provisional ball EVEN IF IT IS NOT YOUR TURN.

In stroke play, there is no penalty.

In match play, the opponent may require you to replay the stroke, but a stroke at the provisional ball past the point where the original ball is likely to be has been played and the original ball is already "lost".

[1972Apex]

Thanks Gary, Colby and El Tigre. Very interesting. It looks like I've been playing within the rules as I usually declare a provisional, take a cursory glance to see if I maybe got lucky and if the woods are too thick I just continue on playing the provisional with the appropriate penalty.
I do occasionally play with the 'helpful' types however who like to say "I think you might be able to find that" in situations where quite frankly, I would rather not...
I can see now that I actually have more options than I thought other than hacking thru the woods if they happen to find it. I'll consult the rule book to clarify further.

Thanks, Reid

[Gary Hill]

Thanks Gary, Colby and El Tigre. Very interesting. It looks like I've been playing within the rules as I usually declare a provisional, take a cursory glance to see if I maybe got lucky and if the woods are too thick I just continue on playing the provisional with the appropriate penalty.
I do occasionally play with the 'helpful' types however who like to say "I think you might be able to find that" in situations where quite frankly, I would rather not...
I can see now that I actually have more options than I thought other than hacking thru the woods if they happen to find it. I'll consult the rule book to clarify further.

Thanks, Reid

You might want to check out Rule 8-1 so you can point it out to the "helpful" types who are suggesting a course of action to you.

[Colby]

RUN up and hit your provisional ball EVEN IF IT IS NOT YOUR TURN.

I was just being polite

[mberube]

If the forest/trees are NOT marked as a hazzard, you CANNOT use the point of entry and put it between you and the hole....

It’s not the point of entry, It’s in line with the hole and where the ball lays.

You must either: find the ball (and then continue with the rules to see if the ball can be declared unplayable etc),

The whacky oponent found the ball.
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard.

declare a provisional (if you don't like it, or hit your prov and hope you hit it before your opponent finds it), or just hit a ball and now are 3 off the tee....you have no other choice...assuming there is no hazzard...

If so, then point taken

If you declare a PROV and your original ball is found and declare your ball unplayable you can then backup up as far as you like staying in line with the ball and the hole. See rule bellow.

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable:
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.

[mberube]

Thanks Gary, Colby and El Tigre. Very interesting. It looks like I've been playing within the rules as I usually declare a provisional, take a cursory glance to see if I maybe got lucky and if the woods are too thick I just continue on playing the provisional with the appropriate penalty.
I do occasionally play with the 'helpful' types however who like to say "I think you might be able to find that" in situations where quite frankly, I would rather not...
I can see now that I actually have more options than I thought other than hacking thru the woods if they happen to find it. I'll consult the rule book to clarify further.

Thanks, Reid

I think it’s good to announce a provisional ball because if you hit a Provisional (s) off line, you can then make the effort to find your original ball. If you do find the original ball this would cancel all previous provisional balls hit and start all over with rule 28.

If you don’t announce a provisional and hit that one off line also you’re bound to make a big number on your score card.

Mike

[BullDog]

Just out of curiousity Gary. If I pump one so deep into the woods that I don't even want to bother to try to look for it, and just go ahead and play a provisional is that OK?
Also, if I have a whacky opponent who goes 30 yards into the woods and by some miracle actually finds my ball what the heck would I do? Waste 20 shots trying to hack thru the woods back to somewhere playable?
I realize the latter is an unlikely scenario, but I'd just like to know.

Must play it where it lies! ...though earlier in the thread a fellow competitor cannot identify it as yours, but you'd have to play it - it's happened to me once. You can't refuse to identify the ball once it's brought to your attention that you MIGHT be "over there"...

[Colby]

Must play it where it lies! ...though earlier in the thread a fellow competitor cannot identify it as yours, but you'd have to play it - it's happened to me once. You can't refuse to identify the ball once it's brought to your attention that you MIGHT be "over there"...

But if you don't announce that you are hitting a provisional, or you hit your provisional past the point where your other ball lies, then you can say "Yep, that's mine", pick it up and put it in your bag because the second ball has become the ball in play.

[bbad]

Rule 28 Ball Unplayable:
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.

I was not aware of this provision...Thanks for the update...

["Richard"]

I've already posted about this before but could I have done this? I hit a ball into the left trees that were marked with red stakes on a dog leg right. I teed up a provisional and put it into the trees as well then teed up another one and put it into there as well... finally pulled out an iron and put it in the fairway I found my first ball but it was unplayable and couldn't drop it on a line back from the flag because it put me farther back into th trees. I wanted to declare the ball unplayable and go back to the tee and be hitting 3 rather than playing my 4th ball out of the fairway for 8 but my friends said I couldn't do it because the ball had entered an area marked with red stakes. Is this true?

[AAA]

You can't hit a provisional if your ball goes into a lateral water hazard so your friends were right.

Rule 26
It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck toward a water hazard is lost inside or outside the hazard. In order to treat the ball as lost in the hazard, there must be reasonable evidence that the ball lodged in it. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
If a ball is in or is lost in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.
The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.

Incidentally the area would seem to be wrongly marked. Trees are not a lateral water hazard.

A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.
A "lateral water hazard" is a water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b.

[1dash1]

Thotho:

It depends whether you played the ball solely because it might be lost in the lateral water hazard (see Decision 27-2a/2) or whether you played the ball because it might be lost in the trees, that you didn't know was marked as a lateral water hazard (see Decision 27-2a/2.5).
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...7.html#27-2a/2

Based on your description, it sounds like Decision 27-2a/2 applies. If so, your second ball was not a provisional, nor were your third and fourth balls. You lie "7" in the fairway.