Slow Golf Rounds

[bnesbit]

Any recommendations on courses in the Ottawa area that don't shove golfers onto the tee blocks as quickly as they can? I don't ever want a repeat of the golfing experience that I had on Saturday.

After showing up tweny minutes early for my tee time at Manderley, and then waiting fifteen minutes past that time, I finally teed off. Three hours later I would finish the front, which few would agree is an acceptable time even for a Saturday. The reason for the delays was fairly obvious - too many golfers teeing off in too short a period of time. Some holes had up to three groups waiting to tee off!

As I had an appointment to get my car out of a garage that afternoon, which I now seemed sure to miss, I went to the pro shop before continuing my round and asked if I could get a refund and pay a nine hole rate instead, or receive some kind of refund. They declined and I was told to talk to their golf pro (who wasn't there) despite their reluctant admission that three hours is not an acceptable rate of play over nine holes. That was a very frustrating and curious response, to say the least.

I managed to have someone else pick up my car so I could finish my round, the pace of which only improved marginally over the back nine. However I'm still left with a bitter taste in my mouth over this one. Needless to say I won't be returning there again.

Any comments regarding other courses that manage their facility in this manner or those that don't would be appreciated so I might know better which courses to avoid or which ones to go to on busier days.

Thanks,

Barry

[Noodles]

Manderly is well known for jamming as many golfers as they can get on to the course. Unfortunately many courses are the same, especially on the weekend. If you want to pay a premium price to play Eagle Creek, their tee-offs are great. Can't hit until the group in front is walking off the first green. Of course at $75 a round it is expensive. Off hand I don't know any course that isn't slow on the weekend. It sucks, but there it is

[NoBack]

You dont say what time you teed off. I have played most courses in the area, on weekends and agree some are way to slow for me too. But I try to tee off before 7 am and play around the 4- 4/12 hr mark, which is very acceptable on weekends.

Like Noodles said, Eagle Creek is good pace but expensive. Another course is Stonebridge, where they will GIVE you a rain check for your back nine if you fail to arrive on the 10th tee, 2 hrs and 20 minutes after teeing off on no.1. Great idea!

Rule of thumb...........if you like faster rounds, play earlier on weekends (feore 7 am).

[em69]

Even though I like Manderley's layout, I have chosen to stay away due to the slow play that is always present there. I find the marshalls put pressure on the players to keep pace of play but there are always way to many golfers on the course.

[Kilroy]

Don't blame the course entirely for this. A course will only hold so many people. You cannot put more people on the course than one group on the first green, one in the fairway, and one on the tee. If they are managing to get more people than that on the course I'd like to know how. I certainly do not blame any course for filling the tee sheet.

I hear a lot of people claiming that courses are "overbooking". Overbooking only causes delays on the first tee, however, a wait on the first tee does not nessecarilly mean that they have overbooked. The whole course may be running slow ahead, and the first tee backs up just like the rest of the course.

Spacing the times out helps, but not as much as people think. Fast groups still get log jammed behind slow ones. Personally I think that if everyone would just keep pace, things would be fine.

Most courses suffer from slow play on weekends, certainly the affordable popular ones do. Manderley is close to town, reasonably priced and in pretty good shape. It is simply a popular course. Quicker weekend rounds can be had at courses that are more expensive, further from town, or in horrid condition. Take your pick.

I think Stonebridge has the best idea, prune the slow groups at #9, and motivate people to move along.

Steve is right, the earlier the better, but don't forget most courses also clear up later in the day. Late afternoon tee times move along very well.

[bnesbit]

I understand slow rounds are occassionally a part of golf, especially on Saturdays, though some courses do shove golfers out there as quickly which greatly impedes having an enjoyable round. My disappointment wasn't so much that I had to wait on every tee block, but the manner in which Manderley responded to my request for a refund. And that they couldn't keep their tee times. (I teed off almost fifteen minutes after my tee time.)

At what point should you look at the course management as being responsible for really slow rounds? Perhaps when they're squeezing as many golfers onto the course as possible, and telling anyone who complains to take a hike? When I did tee off it was just as soon as the group in front had moved out of range, as I suspect was the case with every group that morning.

Now I've got to check out the expensive Eagle Creek!

Barry

[Colby]

I have some experience with slow rounds at Manderley. It usually starts around Hole #5 and 6. This is what I think:

*** Warning: Personal opinion follows:

I see two things contributing to the slow rounds at Manderley:

1. As Dan said, it's close to town and relatively inexpensive. This tends to bring out the beginner golfer, who may take a few extra strokes in a round.
2. #5 and #6 are tight layouts with lots of trees on either side. The said beginner, and more experienced golfers, tend to hit some balls into the trees and the round slows down as the search begins.

I don't see teeing off as soon as the other group is out of range as part of the issue. It's more like the group hitting doesn't know how far they hit. I've seen foursomes 270-280 out on a par five, waiting for the other group to clear the green. As soon as the group clears the green, the foursome hits their 200 yard shots (on a good day) Or the group isn't playing ready golf.

At Manderley, for example, you tee off as soon as the group ahead of you hits their second shot and moves on. As this is a par 4, the second shot is at the green, so the group ahead of them has moved off it. There are no more than two groups playing the par 4.

I have had 6 hour rounds at Manderley, I have had 4 foursomes waiting to tee off at #6. I am also only paying $25-35 to play it. It's not a bad course and is fairly forgiving.

Customer service is important too. When we were at Manderley a couple of weeks ago playing a weekday afternoon, they were great, the consession was understanding as it was hotter then heck.

my $0.02

[Gofish2]

:bablefish I've had just the opposite experience at Manderley. Our foursome has been given rainchecks on 3 different dates over the last two years when we complained about not being able to complete our rounds. The only negative was that they refused to accept a $10 coupon from Golfmax and their pro told me that the owners didn't like coupons. I'm sure that it was just a matter of miscommunication but it was embarassing for me in front of my golfing partners.

[steve]

Here's my bottom line regarding pace of play!

Not every course is entirely worried that you will finish your round in a decent 4 1/2 hours.....very unfortunate. Some courses, however, have made it quite clear that they will not "put up" with slow play. I know personally that Stonebridge is the fastest round to be played. The marshalls get excited when groups are playing slowly so they can tell them to shape up or ship out. Basically, if you can't keep up this course is not for you. The Stonebridge marshalls, however, are very professional and I tip my hat to them.

Another course that has considerably improved is the Canadian. They have 10 intervals in their tee-offs which make it a quicker round.

So, these are my two suggestions. At $40 - $50 a round during the weekend...it's not a bad rate considering Manderley is chargin close to $40 and you're playing for 6 hours. I hope the people at Manderley and other similar courses learn something from Stonebridge and the Canadian. This would result in a positive golfing experience for everyone (that is of course if they don't lose any golf balls).

[captain]

Slow play starts at the first tee. If courses have 7-8 min tee times there are going to be problems espcially on the weekends. Having two extra groups an hour is alot when the first time on the weekend is around 6:30 am. By lunch time there is an extra 40 or more people on the course. I don't know what the spacing is at Manderly but Stonebridge and Eagle Creek's 10 min tee times are very nice. Stonebridge idea of having to play the front nine in a certain time keeps the course moving and Eagle Creeks wait till they are off the green (or on the green on busier days) makes it feel like you have the entire coure to yourself. Of course some groups are going to play slower then others but this is when Marsalls earn pay check (or there free games). If these courses are still to slow then you should try playing during the week or find a private course.

[mr shank]

My advice would be to stay away from Manderly & the like where you have 6 hour rounds. The last time I played Manderley I teed off a few minutes before 7am & still had a round of over 5 hours because of one slow group a few holes ahead of us. When we approached the marshall her response was they paid their green fees like everyone else.
Not an acceptable answer to me & I haven't been back since. There are a few other courses who will jam as many golfers on the course as they can but as long as people continue to frequent these course this scenario will continue.
Thankfully more & more courses appreciate not everyone has 6 hours to spend at the golf course. What seems to be happening is the higher end courses are picking up pace of play while the others are not.
On the other hand, why are we all so anxious to get off the golf course?

[el tigre]

I only golf on weekends, and I have never had a 6 hour round (even at Manderley) unless there was a fog delay. I tee off around 7 am or earlier in the summer, and 8 am or earlier in the spring and fall - and I never seem to have a problem.

Yes, some courses are worse than others and Manderley is one of them. Tee times that are 7-8 minutes apart are fine for spring & fall, but on weekend mornings in summer courses would serve their customers better by having 10-minute tee times and turning some people away. This is especially true for courses like Manderley that have a lot of holes in the forest, but I have even seen Cloverdale backed up on the first tee on Saturday morning (as I'm walking off the 9th green, of course!). And the closer the course is to Ottawa, the worse it gets.

If you want a quick round, then:
1) Play early or on weekdays and beat the crowds, or
2) Play the top-end courses like Eagle Creek or Stonebridge that treat "pace of play" as part of the service their customers expect; or
3) If you must books mid-morning tee times on weekends, get outta town.

One course that seems to break all these rules and get away with it is The Meadows. But then with 4 nines to mix & match, they have much more flexibility.

[jimrobin]

One suggestion I have seen is, at a course called the Hawkesbury G&CC, on the 1st hole they let you know what time you tee off at because there is a clock right there and the starter tells you (I think they even post your starting time on your cart.) Then every 3 or 4 holes there is a clock at the tee block. This clock is delayed by the pace you are supposed to be playing. So let's say you teed off at noon, then every clock when you get to it will be 12 o'clock. i.e. If you're slow it will say 12:10pm when you get to it, if you're 10 minutes ahead of pace then 11:50am. This way its up to every group to keep up the pace and easier for the marshalls to keep track of the real slow pokes.

Also this way groups know themselves when they have to pick it up.

I agree with alot of suggestions earlier on this topic, but I feel alot of times, groups just don't know (or maybe don't care) that they are holding up the whole course.

As for Eagle Creek everytime I have played there I have always been told, you don't tee-off till the group in front has pulled the pin on the 1st green. This is great I think.

James

PS
I played Manderly a couple of years ago on Canada Day and we finished in 6 hr & 55 min.

[cruxradio]

If you absolutely must play on weekends, and are concerned about speed of play, tee off later in the afternoon (3 or 4pm), some courses are nearly deserted by this time.

[JimmyW]

Don't blame the course entirely for this. A course will only hold so many people. You cannot put more people on the course than one group on the first green, one in the fairway, and one on the tee. If they are managing to get more people than that on the course I'd like to know how. I certainly do not blame any course for filling the tee sheet. Dan K

You guys just got one of my pet peeves going again, so I think I'll ask a couple of questions to make sure I got things right.

4 1/2 hrs is good (acceptable) for a round? Personally, I have no problem with that. Faster would be better tho

4 1/2 hrs = 270 minutes = 15 min a hole
7-8 minute splits = 36 groups (including yourself) on the course at any one time.
= 144 players per any one time on the course (max)


Spacing the times out helps, but not as much as people think. Fast groups still get log jammed behind slow ones. Personally I think that if everyone would just keep pace, things would be fine. Dan K

Amen to that. I STILL think that the best thing for courses, owners, and players is to have polite marshals reminding us that it's not your God-given right to add to your Dunlop ball collection while you're on the course. First half 2:15 or bye

JW

[ronmike]

I would like to share an experience my wife and I had with slow play at Greensmere, yesterday afternoon. The course is advertised in Ottawa Golf as "designed to avoid backups" and we booked a tee time at about 3:00 PM to hopefully avoid crowds and slow play. Five and a quarter hours later, we finished the course, having seen no sign of a Marshall or any other staff and having waited for virtually every shot throughout the round. We were so disappointed that we asked staff for a refund on our game. Once the staff member realized we were serious, he wanted to know (not pleasantly) if I was completely out of my mind. Not a good attitude. Greensmere, a course to avoid.

[em69]

Incredible....
The've increased the time between tee-times to 10 min. and it is awesome. We tee-off at 8:50 and the Starter told us we would be done at 1:20. Well we actually finished at 1:15 and never had to wait for the group ahead of us. In fact in was rare that we even saw them.

Congratulations to the Canadian GC for improving play.

[Colby]

Played at Manderley yesterday, teed off just after 10:00am.

It was a nice day, and the 5:20 round gave me the chance to work out some kinks in my game and help my wife with some alignment issues she was having setting up over the ball.

It's all expectations. a mid-morning tee time on the weekends at Manderley, I expect a 5-6 hour round. The weather was great, and we had a good time.

[GrantTotten]

I teed off at Riverbend at 6:00am on Saturday. I was their first tee-off and they didn't have anyone booked till 7:00. Finished 18 holes in a tad over 3 hours 15 minutes. It was beautiful!

Grant

[mr shank]

saturday morning - 7:16am tee time at Mississippi, off the course at 11:00am. Just in time for a frosty one. Too bad all courses couldn't manage that well.

[JimmyW]

Ever had one of those times when you were sitting there doing nothing when "POW" an idea comes like a blinding flash that's so simple you know someone must've thought of this before, but no-ones mentioned it that you know of?

People are talking about long rounds/slow rounds/noboby knows how long it should take rounds-when this idea came to me (laugh if you want to ).

Stick 4 clocks on the course. You know, those big ol' mutherlovin ones you see in offices and schools, about 12" across or so.
One at the 5th tee...
One at the 10th tee...
One at the 14th tee and...
Last at the 18th green

First one is 1h slow
second is 2h10min slow
third is 3h slow and
the last is 4h20min slow

Now before you start scratching your head with your driver, think about it for a minute . If you started your round at 8:15 am then every clock you go by shoud say 8:15 am (if everything is at least on pace). If you're fast, you KNOW that no marshal has a right to even LOOK at you- let alone ask you to speed up so they can get more on the tees behind you. If you're slower, the time reminders nudge you along a bit Or a lot, depending on how guilty you feel.
And Ol' Fart the Marshal will know where the slow-downs start.
Hey, everybody's always talking about how good StoneBridge is 'cause it's always on time

JW

ImustlearntoreadbeforeItype.Imustlearntoreadbefore Itype.ImustlearntoreadbeforeItype.
ImustlearntoreadbeforeItype.Imustlearntoreadbefore Itype.ImustlearntoreadbeforeItype..

JW

[Colby]

I've seen this on a course, I can't remember which one. They were a bit more frequent.

Also, to add to my Sunday golf story, Manderley has a sign on the 5th tee saying that iy should be an hour past your tee time. We were there exactly one hour after tee-time, and bogged down on 5-6-7 and then 13-14-15 which added to the 5.5 hour round.

[jimrobin]

Hey JimmyW
Sorry to burst your bubble but look at a post I made in this thread on July 15th.
Actually since I posted this I have heard alot of private courses have a clock system in place.

Posted July 15th
One suggestion I have seen is, at a course called the Hawkesbury G&CC, on the 1st hole they let you know what time you tee off at because there is a clock right there and the starter tells you (I think they even post your starting time on your cart.) Then every 3 or 4 holes there is a clock at the tee block. This clock is delayed by the pace you are supposed to be playing. So let's say you teed off at noon, then every clock when you get to it will be 12 o'clock. i.e. If you're slow it will say 12:10pm when you get to it, if you're 10 minutes ahead of pace then 11:50am. This way its up to every group to keep up the pace and easier for the marshalls to keep track of the real slow pokes.

JR

[McGavin]

JimmyW,

UpperCanada and Canadian both have the clock system that you just described....

McGavin

[JimmyW]

OK OK OK I get the point:crying

Just so I don't look like a COMPLETE idiot, I've got to mention that I try to make a point of reading EVERY new post (View New Posts )but I must've missed one or two that day

JW

(See my post above)

[el tigre]

Not to rub it in, but Casselview also uses the clock system - and they have a clock on EVERY hole.

[The Shtick]

Mont Cascades has clocks on 1,5,8,11,14, and 16.... all showing your scheduled tee off time.

[Kilroy]

Wow Jimmy, your idea caught on fast!

[em69]

See Jimmy it was a great idea...courses are using the clock system all over the region.

[4jag]

Jimmy-

Why don't courses send employees around in carts to remind players to keep up the pace of play. They could call themselves pace-keepers or rangers or marshalls! Sorry buddy I could'nt resist.

Seriously, though. The starter could give one player in each group a clock or stop-watch that clips to his bag. It could emit a gentle beep at 1, 2, 3 & 4 hours as a reminder or display which hole the group should be playing..... "You teed off 1:30 minutes ago you should be on hole #6." etc.

If you wanted to get real fancy it could be equiped with a proximity card device. As you pass certain check points on the course it will turn a different colour - Green you are on or ahead of pace, Yellow you are 10-15 minutes behind, Red you are seriously behind - stop in for a raincheck after 9.

Other courses that have mandatory carts use GPS to track the relative position of all golfers on the course from the pro shop. They can predict bottlenecks and dispatch marshalls to trouble spots as needed. Kinda like monitoring traffic patterns on the roads and adjusting the timing of traffic lights in real time to keep the flow going.