Handicap opinion...

[BOMBER]

I have an opinion on handicaps. Maybe I'm alone on this opinion, but we'll see when people start replying to the thread.

My opinion.....


In my opinion, someone with a handicap of 4 who is a member at a golf club, and pretty much plays there all the time, is not as impressive as someone who is a 4 handicap and plays different courses all the time.

My reasoning behing my opinion.....

I am basing this on being a regular member at two golf clubs in Ottawa and Aylmer respectively, and then playing all over the place since not being a member anymore.

It is much more difficult to keep a 4 handicap playing different courses that you are not familiar with or play everyday, than keeping a 4 handicap while playing the same course you know like the back of your hand.

A perfect example of this was seen by myself and a friend of mine. We played with a regular member from a course in Alberta on one of our local courses. He said he was a 4 handicap and played three times a week. I beat him by 8 strokes on two different occasions on two different courses.

Opinions?

[Shivas Irons]

Your handicap should be different on different courses depending on slope/rating.
Next time someone tells you they are a 4 handicap say "great, let's play skins now" - you'll quickly find out which handicap they use for bragging & which they use for sandbagging.

[Kilroy]

No big mystery there. I play a lot of courses, some more than others. I'd get bored at the same course all the time, but you'd definately score better!

[BOMBER]

Your handicap should be different on different courses depending on slope/rating.
Next time someone tells you they are a 4 handicap say "great, let's play skins now" - you'll quickly find out which handicap they use for bragging & which they use for sandbagging.

It SHOULD be. but people use a general number. They don't carry a list of what their handicap is on all the courses they've played. For example, if I asked you what it was on this forum, then you would give me a number I'd think, not what it is for each course.

[jvincent]

Remember, you don't have a Handicap, you have a "Handicap Factor".

What if your home course is really tight with small, fast, undulating greens? If you're a 4 there and you go somewhere with wide open fairways and easy greens you should score a lot better.

Yes, local knowledge will probably give you a stroke or two advantage, but there are so many other factors in play (weather, course familiarity, conditions, etc) that in the end, if you keep a VALID (record all scores, etc) handicao then it should be a reasonably accurate measure of your skill.

The real problem is that so many people don't keep an accurate handicap, that it's often hard to judge.

[Shivas Irons]

It SHOULD be. but people use a general number. They don't carry a list of what their handicap is on all the courses they've played. For example, if I asked you what it was on this forum, then you would give me a number I'd think, not what it is for each course.

You must have a "home" course to have a handicap - a handicap needs to be measured against some sort of slope & rating. Thus the handicap people are giving would be for a specific course whether they realize it or not.
I do get your point though, people who are not members anywhere are going to throw out a ball park number for a handicap which, assuming they're honest, should be pretty accurate.

[BOMBER]

You must have a "home" course to have a handicap - a handicap needs to be measured against some sort of slope & rating. Thus the handicap people are giving would be for a specific course whether they realize it or not.
I do get your point though, people who are not members anywhere are going to throw out a ball park number for a handicap which, assuming they're honest, should be pretty accurate.

Yeah that's what I'm getting at. This guy assumed since he plays his 'home' course all the time and his handicap is 4 with that rating etc... That he would shoot in the 70's at this other course.

[Kilroy]

Assuming handicaps are correctly applied, you'd have to expect a better differential at a player's home course. That would apply to a course where you play most of your rounds, but especially if you are a member and play virtually all your golf there.

Not knowing the best targets is part of it, but putting can be big if your not used to a variety of green speeds and conditions. So a member playing an away course is at a disadvantage.

If you play on different courses all the time putting can be tough. The greens are different every game. That can keep you from having the lowest handicap possible too. However, since this is already part of your handicap, and it is also based on not always knowing where "position A" is on every hole you play, You'd be at least a stroke or 3 higher handicap than you would be as a member somewhere.

That might even give the roaming player an advantage in a handicapped match against a member at his home course, but it's tough to fight local knowlege

A member of course "A" plays a member of course "B" at course "C" = no advantage

A member of course "A" plays a member of course "B" at course "A" = advantage A

Non member (unofficial handicap) plays a member of course "A" at course "C" = advantage Non member

[Colby]

Maybe that explains why I play so terribly at the OGT events

[Kilroy]

Yah, that's it!

I's not going to make a huge difference. It has nothing to do with ball striking. Just a few strokes where they count.

[BOMBER]

Yah, that's it!

I's not going to make a huge difference. It has nothing to do with ball striking. Just a few strokes where they count.

Those few strokes can make or break a round.

[Colby]

It's those darn high handicappers...

[Kilroy]

Those few strokes can make or break a round.

Cost ya a few bucks fer sure.
So are we public players all sandbaggers or are all club members "vanity baggers"?
Perhaps this is a class segregation issue?

[BOMBER]

Cost ya a few bucks fer sure.
So are we public players all sandbaggers or are all club members "vanity baggers"?
Perhaps this is a class segregation issue?

Who knows....

[Kilroy]

New ad for "Insert Club Name Here" - Buying a membership will take 5 strokes off your game!

[1972Apex]

Just another few good reasons of why the handicap system does not work.

[Colby]

Just another few good reasons of why the handicap system does not work.

I don't know. My private club 10 keeps up with Steve's play-all-over 10. Especially at the Ryder Cup and other times we play Match Play

[jeffc]

my dad is a member of a private course, not overly long @ 6300 from the tips, but on the tight side, with small, fast greens. Not a course you need to overpower by any sense, but you better have a great short game and be an excellent putter.

Whenever I play there, I usually have a tough time, since I am used to greens that are bigger and slower (even at some of the better courses around town). He knows every break on every green, all the spots to be and not to be, where the danger is, etc.

I know how to play most of the holes, but the short game/greens kill me. He's probably played close to 2000 rounds there.

When we go play somewhere else, I beat him every time. When we play there, he beats me the majority of the time....

[BOMBER]

my dad is a member of a private course, not overly long @ 6300 from the tips, but on the tight side, with small, fast greens. Not a course you need to overpower by any sense, but you better have a great short game and be an excellent putter.

Whenever I play there, I usually have a tough time, since I am used to greens that are bigger and slower (even at some of the better courses around town). He knows every break on every green, all the spots to be and not to be, where the danger is, etc.

I know how to play most of the holes, but the short game/greens kill me. He's probably played close to 2000 rounds there.

When we go play somewhere else, I beat him every time. When we play there, he beats me the majority of the time....

That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You can be a great player on your own course, but if you don't play all different courses with different greens, fairways, etc.., then you'll probably be beat by someone who just generally a really good golfer, not a good golfer on just the course he's a member at.

[Kilroy]

I don't know. My private club 10 keeps up with Steve's play-all-over 10. Especially at the Ryder Cup and other times we play Match Play

Clublink members get to play more courses than other memberships offer, but I expect you play 75% or so at Talon, and only a few at other Clublink courses including Predator this year. Is that correct?

[1972Apex]

I don't know. My private club 10 keeps up with Steve's play-all-over 10. Especially at the Ryder Cup and other times we play Match Play

Well, that may be so, but I'd still rather play people of my own skill level straight up. The handicap system just frustrates and confuses me.

[NoBack]

Interesting topic but not new.
I've done both. Being a member for 15 years at one course and playing a few others during the year, then playing all over with a few courses as my favorites. Either way I keep the same handicap but I do find that I can adapt to the greens quicker at most courses which is a major factor. Being able to shave those storkes around the greens is THE difference.

Great example of this was the year when we finally hosted Intersectionals at our home course (Mt Cascades). Being a cottage country golf course, we did not have the number of members some clubs have and therefore our team was made of only 4 A players and the other 6 were B players, myself included (10 handicap and 6th lowest on our team). This is not a big deal but when you play teams that are filled with ALL A players it can be a pain. Anyway, long story short, the A players (at their course) and some very low handicapped (2-4) players stunk it up on a course they did not know and did not putt well on. We as a team won all but one match out of 30. Yes I got the 4 points to miss the shut out but there were major circumstances that made it impossible for me to win that last match.

[GarthM]

shave those storkes around the greens

THREAD JACK!!!

I thought we were talking about golf, not stork shaving!!!

[Kilroy]

Oh no, not a gross visual thread jack!

[Colby]

Clublink members get to play more courses than other memberships offer, but I expect you play 75% or so at Talon, and only a few at other Clublink courses including Predator this year. Is that correct?

That is correct

[NoBack]

THREAD JACK!!!

I thought we were talking about golf, not stork shaving!!!

You guys know I cant spell

[Colby]

Well, that may be so, but I'd still rather play people of my own skill level straight up. The handicap system just frustrates and confuses me.

It just needs to be applied correctly. What really hurts is having all level of players together. If you checked out the Pop of Slope's Odds of shooting low scores, http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html (It says sandbagging, but the numbers are very useful)

The odds of a 6-12 handicapper shooting -4 (net) is 121 to 1 yet person with a handicap over 30, the odds drop to 22 to 1. This is usually because the 30+ handicapper will have rollercoaster rounds. One good, another brutal, averaging their 30+ handicap. On the other hand, the 6-12 handicapper will have far less fluctuation between scores. Move to -10 (the net scores at both Eagle Creek and Manderley) the odds of a 6-12 handicapper move to 125,000 to 1 and a 30+ handicapper to 874 to 1. Not impossible, but unlikely.

Where I was going with this is that with the number of higher handicaps on the OGT, 13 out of 50 (26%) at a factor of 18 and higher (just my cutting off point it would be higher if I used the Pope's 13 and up figure), the odds of those golfers scoring low in any single event is better than me scoring low in the event. And it's harder for the people with better handicaps than mine.

For those that don't belong to the OGT, please don't take it as if I'm bashing the tour. It's well run, fun to play in, and Dan and Steve take great care in making sure people are posting all of their scores. It's just easy for me to get the figures, and it's just a statistical fact that the odds are stacked in a favour of the high handicappers. And it's not just one person, but the collective group. So when I play on the OGT, I go out to have fun, which is really why we should be playing this stupid game

[Golfbum]

My home course uses tee-on.com to track our handicaps. We can go into the handicap section and see what our indexes would be at a lot of other courses.

I just checked mine and it varied 1 stroke from my home course to other courses. Only at one course did it really drop, 3 strokes. So I assume that is a pretty easy course slope and rating wise.

For instance my index from my course to the Board of Trade in Toronto is 2 strokes higher off their Blue and Gold tees. At Devil's Pulpit it is once again 2 higher than my home course.

If you have the chance to use http://www.tee-on.com/ then try it out. You do not have to be a member of a course to use it. Not sure if there are any Ottawa area courses listed on it, there are some in the Toronto area listed.

Another nice feature is the fact we can look up other members handicaps from our computers. Plus book tee times at a lot of courses in southwestern Ontario.