Out of bounds...

["Richard"]

friend played a shot today and put it into the trees. He dropped a ball (at my urging) and put his provisional onto the green. He didn't really attempt to look for his ball but neither did I so he pulled out his putter and as he was taking his first step towards the green the cart girl on the next hole said "hey, your ball is right here" so he wanted to play his provisional. Me and BG458 told him that once your first ball is found you can't play the provisional under ANY circumstance. He was under the impression that he was allowed to abandon his first ball because it was in the cart path of the other hole and because it was not on our hole it was out of bounds. I told him that was not true. Nothing is out of bounds unless it is marked.

My question is (I'm 99.999% sure that I'm right about this one) if a ball is on the cart path or fairway of another hole is it out of bounds?

Second question, Did he have to look for his ball? Could he not just have walked right to the flag and hit his put there for making the provisional his ball in play? I know you can't declare a ball lost but does he have to wait 5 minutes before me can take a stroke with his putter (on the provisional ball). If he is in the really deep stuff, far far into the trees and his provisional is in a really good sport can he just not look for his ball, ask all his FC's not to look for his ball and just play the provisional? I could see how this could work to your advantace. You could play a provisional and if its a great shot and you are at best going to be shooting the same with your original ball once you get it on the green why not just not look? Does that make sense?

Final question, when is a ball out of bounds? When its past the out of bounds markers and when its off the course property right? (backyards, roads passing the course)

[AAA]

1)
My question is (I'm 99.999% sure that I'm right about this one) if a ball is on the cart path or fairway of another hole is it out of bounds?

2) Second question, Did he have to look for his ball? Could he not just have walked right to the flag and hit his put there for making the provisional his ball in play? I know you can't declare a ball lost but does he have to wait 5 minutes before me can take a stroke with his putter (on the provisional ball). If he is in the really deep stuff, far far into the trees and his provisional is in a really good sport can he just not look for his ball, ask all his FC's not to look for his ball and just play the provisional? I could see how this could work to your advantace. You could play a provisional and if its a great shot and you are at best going to be shooting the same with your original ball once you get it on the green why not just not look? Does that make sense?

3)
Final question, when is a ball out of bounds? When its past the out of bounds markers and when its off the course property right? (backyards, roads passing the course)

1) No. Unless there are OoB markers between the two fairways

2) No, he doesn't have to look for his ball. If he hits his provisional after it has passed the point his original ball was likely to be it becomes the ball in play. Even if someone finds the original it is still 'lost'. Hs FCs can look for his ball but that is very poor etiquette.

3) Yes. A ball is out of bounds when all of it lies out of bounds. ie when it is past the inside edge of the stakes or fence or other demarkation.

["Richard"]

ok sounds fair. But basically if a guy hits a ball into the trees and knows he will be able to find it but its going to be a horrible lie he can actually play a provisional and if the ball is great he can play that and not look for his first or go back and play the first ball (after he finds it) since he shanked his provisional. The rules are the rules and if you can use them to your advantage why not.

But like I had said earlier, we didn't really look for his ball and it was the cart girl that pointed his ball out... so he had to play it correct?

[AAA]

1)
But basically if a guy hits a ball into the trees and knows he will be able to find it but its going to be a horrible lie he can actually play a provisional and if the ball is great he can play that and not look for his first or go back and play the first ball (after he finds it) since he shanked his provisional. The rules are the rules and if you can use them to your advantage why not.

2)
But like I had said earlier, we didn't really look for his ball and it was the cart girl that pointed his ball out... so he had to play it correct?

1) Note the words 'may be lost'. If you know it is not lost you cannot take a provisional.

Also, if you find it and don't like the lie you can't just declare it unplayable and use your provisional. Provisionals are only for potentially lost balls. If you end up using the provisional it is 3 off the tee.
If you reckon it is unplayable you have to go back to the tee and play another (3 off the tee) or use the other options in Rule 28

Rule 26-2
If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

2) Yes, or more correctly he had to identify it first.

[Golfbum]

ok sounds fair. But basically if a guy hits a ball into the trees and knows he will be able to find it but its going to be a horrible lie he can actually play a provisional and if the ball is great he can play that and not look for his first or go back and play the first ball (after he finds it) since he shanked his provisional. The rules are the rules and if you can use them to your advantage why not.

But like I had said earlier, we didn't really look for his ball and it was the cart girl that pointed his ball out... so he had to play it correct?

NO. He is a cheater. Sorry there is no nicer way to desribe him.

If he hits it in the trees and there is a chance it might be lost he hits a provisional off the tee. (Or from the spot he hit from in the fairway, rough etc)
Then he must go look for his original ball. He has 5 minutes to find it, if he finds it he MUST PLAY IT. If it is unplayable he has to then proceed to take a drop, two clubs no closer to the hole. He can not just say "Ahh I am going to play my provisional ball" and walk away from his orginal ball. (This is another good reason that most good golfers put some sort of mark on their golf balls, so they can identify it as their ball)

If after 5 minutes of searching he can not find his original ball he plays the provisional. So if that off a tee he would be laying 3.

Best thing to do is buy a rule book, put it in a ziplock bag and then put it in your golf bag.

[AAA]

Then he must go look for his original ball.

No, there is no such rule.

[AAA]

If it is unplayable he has to then proceed to take a drop, two clubs no closer to the hole.

That is only option c of Rule 28

He has 2 other options - a & b

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

[Golfbum]

No, there is no such rule.

You sure about this?
I know I go look for my errent shot. Why would you not do that? If it is in the trees you might be able to advance it and save a stroke.
I am pretty sure you have to make an attempt to find your original ball. Gary will advise us of this.

[Golfbum]

That is only option c of Rule 28

He has 2 other options - a & b

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or
c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Yes you are correct in all of the above. I should have worded it differently.
I don't worry about trees, there ain't too many on my course that come into play! Fescue, that is another matter

["Richard"]

so basically if he plays a provisional ball, walks upto that ball and hits it without looking for his ball AT ALL.. that is ok right? Its not polite for us to go look for his ball and if he doesn't want to look for it, no one can make him correct? But if I do see it without really looking for it, shoudl I tell him even though I know his intention was never to look for it and play his provisional? If you put your second ball deep into the trees and play a provisional and put it 2 feet from the hole its better for him to be shooting his 5th and holing it for a boogie instead of taking a 3rd shot out of really thick trees with no way out so why bother looking for it? To get a boogie on that hole you would need to put it onto the green and get a two putt or take one stroke to get out of the trees, one on and one putt which from that position would be really hard

[Golfbum]

No, there is no such rule.

If there is no such rule for searching for your golf ball if you think it is lost then why does the USGA have this in the Rules of Golf? The way I read this is your ball is not officially lost until you have searched for it for 5 minutes.

Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or

c. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.
Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

["Richard"]

"The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be" So basically you can forgo part a and b if you simple walk upto your provisional ball and take a stroke with it. Simple. I think the rule is made more for people who actually want to look for their ball and it gives them 5 minutes but if you chose not to look and go ahead and play your provisional the it is offically lost even if it is found after the stroke

[el tigre]

You sure about this?
I know I go look for my errent shot. Why would you not do that? If it is in the trees you might be able to advance it and save a stroke.
I am pretty sure you have to make an attempt to find your original ball. Gary will advise us of this.

No, the rules do not require you to look for your original ball. There are several situations where your ball is deemed to be "lost" under Rule 27, and not finding it after searching for 5 minutes is only one of them.

If you suspect your original ball is deep in the woods or in very thick fescue, advancing the ball may be very difficult. If your provisional ball is in the middle of the fairway in that situation, you would probably be better off playing the provisional.

[1dash1]

Golfbum:

AAA is correct. There is no obligation for the player to search for the original ball. If the player is happy with his provisional ball, he may choose not to hunt for the original. You'll recall the Phil Mickelson/Frank Lickliter playoff at the Buick Invitational at Torrey Pines a few years ago: http://msnbc.com/news/529641.asp

(There is an obligation to identify the ball if a ball is found. And if found & identified, the player must abandon the provisional ball. But that's a different issue.)

[Gary Hill]

If there is no such rule for searching for your golf ball if you think it is lost then why does the USGA have this in the Rules of Golf? The way I read this is your ball is not officially lost until you have searched for it for 5 minutes.

Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
b. The player has made a stroke at a substituted ball; or

c. The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place.
Time spent in playing a wrong ball is not counted in the five-minute period allowed for search.

As you have point out above, there are three ways that a ball becomes lost under the Rules.

Each is connected by the word "OR".

The correct way to read the definition is that if any one of the statements is true, then your ball is lost.

For example, lets take the second sentence (part b)
You hit a twenty foot putt just past the hole.
You reach into your pocket and drop another ball onto the putting green and try the putt again.
The second ball putted instantly becomes the ball in play and the ball you putted first is lost.

[Shivas Irons]

NO. He is a cheater. Sorry there is no nicer way to desribe him.

If he hits it in the trees and there is a chance it might be lost he hits a provisional off the tee. (Or from the spot he hit from in the fairway, rough etc)
Then he must go look for his original ball. He has 5 minutes to find it, if he finds it he MUST PLAY IT. If it is unplayable he has to then proceed to take a drop, two clubs no closer to the hole. He can not just say "Ahh I am going to play my provisional ball" and walk away from his orginal ball. (This is another good reason that most good golfers put some sort of mark on their golf balls, so they can identify it as their ball)

If after 5 minutes of searching he can not find his original ball he plays the provisional. So if that off a tee he would be laying 3.

Best thing to do is buy a rule book, put it in a ziplock bag and then put it in your golf bag.

You also have to read the rule book you put in your bag, which you apparently have not.
This ruling would make Phil Mickelson as well as a number of other pros "cheaters" - better get your facts straight before you accuse someone of being a cheater.

[Chambokl]

Hi Gary,

I am not sure but why do you hit a provisional ball if your drive IS NOT out of bound. I thought provisional shot were only in case your ball is out of bound (past white stakes).

If your ball is in trees or hazard you go and look for it and if you can't find it, you hit from the point of entry which is your 3rd shot. You do not hit a provisional ball in this case (I thought). That is why lots of high end golf course don't have too many out of bounds so players don't go back (on the tee) and hit another ball.

Thanks,

Chambo

PS: The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place. (provisional in the case you find your original ball closer to the hole)

["Richard"]

if its out of bounds then you don't need to hit a provisional ball, you need to hit a new ball.. shooting three from the tee box.. not 3 from the point of entry. Its stroke and distance. Also, yes if your ball is in the hazard then you go look for it or drop at point of entry. That was the problem, we thought red stakes were out of bounds so I re-teed when all I had to do was drop at point of entry

[Colby]

Hi Gary,

I am not sure but why do you hit a provisional ball if your drive IS NOT out of bound. I thought provisional shot were only in case your ball is out of bound (past white stakes).

If your ball is in trees or hazard you go and look for it and if you can't find it, you hit from the point of entry which is your 3rd shot. You do not hit a provisional ball in this case (I thought). That is why lots of high end golf course don't have too many out of bounds so players don't go back (on the tee) and hit another ball.

Thanks,

Chambo

PS: The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place. (provisional in the case you find your original ball closer to the hole)

If your ball is in a water hazard, lateral or not, you do not hit a provisional. If you hit another ball from where you hit the original, the new ball becomes the ball in play automatically. If you hit into trees, not hazard, you should hit a provisional, because if you cannot find the ball, you must hit from the original location, or as close to it as you can. A lost ball is a stroke and distance penalty the same as OB.

[AAA]

Hi Gary,

I am not sure but why do you hit a provisional ball if your drive IS NOT out of bound. I thought provisional shot were only in case your ball is out of bound (past white stakes).
If your ball is in trees or hazard you go and look for it and if you can't find it, you hit from the point of entry which is your 3rd shot. You do not hit a provisional ball in this case (I thought). That is why lots of high end golf course don't have too many out of bounds so players don't go back (on the tee) and hit another ball.

Thanks,

Chambo

PS: The player has made a stroke at a provisional ball from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place. (provisional in the case you find your original ball closer to the hole)

You take a provisional if the first is likely to be OOB or lost (but not in a water hazard).
And then you proceed under Rule 27.
Rule 27 is there to save time in case you find your ball in play. If you don't find your ball in play you would have to go back to the original place and play again.
This is often refered to as Stroke and Distance

If your ball is likely to be in a water hazard you proceed under rule 26.
Rule 26 allows other options in addition to playing again from the original position.
You are not allowed to take a provisional.

["Richard"]

rather than starting a new thread (I'm sure people are getting sick o my questions and seeing my name as the starter of a new thread) what do you do if a FC goes to tap in a one foot putt but just a half ass job of it cuase he knows its going in and misses it but you know had he putt it properly it would have gone it? there was no rush and don't know why he wouldn't just take his time and putt properly. I line up even a 2 footer. When he misses and I say "did you count that" the reply is, not it was a gimmie

[Kilroy]

Thotho, new questions belong in new threads. That is unless the new question is related to the thread you are asking in.

To answer your question... "Non-chalant putts count just as much as chalant putts"

If you are playing this guy for a few bucks and nobody in the group told him "it's good" then it's not a gimmie. If this is the same guy you usually ask about there is no way I'd play him for any ammount of money so let him cheat and lie and play whatever game he is playing.

One should remember that golf is a window to personality. Watch out for people that assume they do not have to putt out short putts of three feet or less. These people will not ask for favours they will expect them.

Someone who cheats at golf will probably take undue advantage in other aspects of life. Someone who takes their lumps, accepts thier penalties and enjoys the challenges presented by bad lies will be a far more reliable person in the real world.

["Richard"]

wow, sounds like you know him pretty well!!! ahahah

[Golfbum]

Thotho, new questions belong in new threads. That is unless the new question is related to the thread you are asking in.

To answer your question... "Non-chalant putts count just as much as chalant putts"

If you are playing this guy for a few bucks and nobody in the group told him "it's good" then it's not a gimmie. If this is the same guy you usually ask about there is no way I'd play him for any ammount of money so let him cheat and lie and play whatever game he is playing.

One should remember that golf is a window to personality. Watch out for people that assume they do not have to putt out short putts of three feet or less. These people will not ask for favours they will expect them.

Someone who cheats at golf will probably take undue advantage in other aspects of life. Someone who takes their lumps, accepts thier penalties and enjoys the challenges presented by bad lies will be a far more reliable person in the real world.

Dan I know you and I need to play golf together!

When I first started golfing with the guys I golf with now they were giving 2 footers constantly. I said "Boys you should putt those out because some day you are going to be standing over a 2 footer to win a match or Club C and you ain't going to make it!" Sure enough, they started to putt them out and a lot of 2 footers were suddenly "Not Good" It isn't good until you hear the ball hit the bottom of the cup!

Now I don't mind giving a guy the odd two foot putt if I play with him enough to know he is rock solid on them. Guys do that for me. I would rather just finish them out though. If I miss it I take my lumps, put the score on the card and move to the next hole. Simple as that.

Golf used to be a game of honour, lately I have seen a lot of honour missing from the grand old game.

["Richard"]

I agree dan...

I don't beleive in gimmies!!

[Kilroy]

Dan I know you and I need to play golf together!

Let me know if you come up this way. I'll look you up if I come down there.