Shaft Torque?

[fmanning]

So, I'm pretty sure I've got the whole "shaft spec" thing sussed out, but I'm still a little cloudy on Torque. I know that it is a measurement of the shaft's ability to resist twisting. What I'm wondering is when would one need more torque vs. less torque?

My driver swing speed is in the 120-130 range, and I would *think* that I would need as little torque as possible...but am I wrong when assuming that?

[BOMBER]

So, I'm pretty sure I've got the whole "shaft spec" thing sussed out, but I'm still a little cloudy on Torque. I know that it is a measurement of the shaft's ability to resist twisting. What I'm wondering is when would one need more torque vs. less torque?

My driver swing speed is in the 120-130 range, and I would *think* that I would need as little torque as possible...but am I wrong when assuming that?

I'm not too sure about how the whole torque thing works to tell you the truth, but what I do know, is that you sir, have a fast swing.

[fmanning]

at 6'2, 260....it's very, very difficult to swing slow

[BOMBER]

at 6'2, 260....it's very, very difficult to swing slow

I guess that makes sense. I'm 5'9", 185, and my swing speed is just over 110.

[Chieflongtee]

More torque if you are a slicer. Less torque if you are a hooker(no pun intended). More torque will twist more thus the face will close faster. Opposite for less torque. Steel shafts have approx 2.4 torque.

[fmanning]

good stuff
I had a feeling that I was right. I've been battling a hook (mostly because, up until now, I've had demo drivers with only stuff shafts) so I'm glad that I'm aiming myself in the right direction.

[THUNDAH]

Torque is a measurement of a shaft's resistance to twisting. The lower the number, the more torque. A 2.8º value has more torque than a 4.5º value. Steel shafts have the most torque. As it is with shaft stiffness values, no two manufacturers use the same method for measuring torque. Torque measurements are useful when comparing shafts made by the same company.

[Big Johnny69]

Not looking to start an argument but I believe you have your numbers confused THUNDAH. If I am not mistaken the lower the number the less torque. The torque number is the amount (or resistance to amount if you will) of twisting in degrees. So the higher the number the more a shaft will twist when force is applied. If I am wrong I sit corrected.

[Chieflongtee]

Not looking to start an argument but I believe you have your numbers confused THUNDAH. If I am not mistaken the lower the number the less torque. The torque number is the amount (or resistance to amount if you will) of twisting in degrees. So the higher the number the more a shaft will twist when force is applied. If I am wrong I sit corrected.

That's the way I always understood it Geoff. Anyway 2.8 will twist less than 4.5 Evre seen this from Harrison. Don't believe everything you read and ear but worth taking a look at.
http://www.harrisongolf.com/twist_article.htm

[BC MIST]

The true effect of varying degrees of torque(torsional stiffness) in the shaft tip, has more to do with FEEL than actual ball flight. And, torque may have an affect on a shot by allowing the head to twist BEFORE ball club impact, not during.

There are really only two things to consider about torque when selecting a shaft.

1. If your swing has a quick tempo and is fast and aggressive, stay away from the 5* or higher torqued shafts. If there is a problem with accuracy, it is not the torque, it's the length, swingweight, total weight, etc. With the above kind of golfer using a shaft with too much torque, the ball will likely not curve, but be just pushed a little.

2. If you have a slow swing, say 85 mph or less, with a smooth tempo, stay away from a shaft with a torque measurement of 3* or less, as it will FEEL very, very stiff, even on perfect contact.

Therefore, for 90% of us, a shaft in the 3.5 to 4.5 range is fine, and this BTW, is also the torque range for many PGA Tour pros.

Like kick point, the affect of torque on shot performance is grossly exaggerated.

[THUNDAH]

GJ,
Torque is the resistance to twisting. Less torque = less resistance or more twisting, hence the higher number.
From page 58 of "The Golfsmith Practical Clubfitting Program" by Tom Wishon
"Torque is technically the term which expresses the force of twisting, and is, from an engineering standpoint, the wrong term to describe how much a shaft does or does not resist the twisting forces it encounters during the downswing. Torsional stiffness is the proper term associated with describing the shaft's ability to resist the force of twisting. However, because the term has been used in clubmaking and fitting for some time... the word torque" is used to describe how torsionally stiff or torsionally flexible a shaft may be.
...Low torque is a generic term used to describe any shaft with a greater amount of torsionnal stiffness...

Just like loft. More loft = weaker club

[Big Johnny69]

GJ,
Torque is the resistance to twisting. Less torque = less resistance or more twisting, hence the higher number.
From page 58 of "The Golfsmith Practical Clubfitting Program" by Tom Wishon
"Torque is technically the term which expresses the force of twisting, and is, from an engineering standpoint, the wrong term to describe how much a shaft does or does not resist the twisting forces it encounters during the downswing. Torsional stiffness is the proper term associated with describing the shaft's ability to resist the force of twisting. However, because the term has been used in clubmaking and fitting for some time... the word torque" is used to describe how torsionally stiff or torsionally flexible a shaft may be.
...Low torque is a generic term used to describe any shaft with a greater amount of torsionnal stiffness...

Just like loft. More loft = weaker club

Like I said before THUNDAH, not looking to start any arguments but if you read your last statement it states that "low torque (hence 2.4*to whatever the industry cutoff is for low torque shafts) is a term used to describe any shaft with a greater amount of torsional stiffness". So low torque (2.4(steel shaft) to whatever) greater torsional stiffness. So like I said the lower the number the greater torsional stiffness, unlike your previous post where you state steel shafts (at an average of 2.4*) have less torque in them than a graphite shaft at 4.5*. That is simply not true. That is why most golfers use steel shafts instead of graphite in their irons, to prevent the head from twisting when it comes in contact with the ground. Whether it is a term that was created or not, the fact of the matter is the lower the number the less likely a shaft will twist when a force is applied and contact is made. But unless you are referring to "a lower number has more torque built into the shaft" then all previous posts make sense and disregard my rantings and ravings. Just getting the wording mixed up. Thanks for the info though THUNDAH.

[Chieflongtee]

It's all in the definition/wording but we all get the concept. See Dave Tutelman's note:

http://tutelman.com/golfclubs/Design...hp?ref=#torque

Torque
Torque is the amount of "twisting force" applied to a body, to turn it around some axis. The axis is either fixed or assumed fixed for some design purpose.
You may remember it from high school physics as the "moment" of a force on a lever. In the lever example (which we'll use for a bit here), the fixed axis is called the lever's "fulcrum". The torque (twisting force, remember?) produced by any force that acts on the lever is the force TIMES the distance from the force to the fulcrum.

For instance, suppose I put a 200-gram weight on a lever, at a point 12 inches to the right of the fulcrum. Then the weight will try to turn the lever clockwise (right side down) with a TORQUE of 2400 inch-grams (200 * 12). Putting more weight on the lever will certainly increase the torque, but so will moving the original 200 grams further from the fulcrum. If we moved it out another 12 inches, its clockwise torque would be 4800 inch-grams. Coloquially, we've increase the "leverage" of the force.

How about a little exercise to really feel what we're talking about here.

Lay one of your clubs on (or preferably across) a table or workbench, with the entire grip (and nothing else) hanging over the edge.
Put your finger on the grip near the butt, and press down until you lift the clubhead free of the bench. Note what the force you apply feels like.
Now repeat, but press on the grip about an inch or two from the edge of the bench. Note how much harder you have to press.
What's going on here is that it takes a certain amount of TORQUE to turn the club about the fulcrum (the edge of the bench) and lift the clubhead. Remember that torque is force TIMES distance from the fulcrum. You can apply that torque by either a small force at the butt or by a much larger force much closer to the fulcrum.
Torque has a number of interesting applications in golf club design:

Of course, we're used to reading about the "torque" of a shaft, which is a complete misnomer. Actually, that rating is an angle (say, 3.5 degrees), not a torque. It is the amount a shaft twists when a given amount of torque is applied to it, trying to twist the shaft around its long axis. The smaller the number, the stiffer the shaft in RESISTING torque.
The Center of Gravity (CG) of any body is informally defined as the "balance point" of the body. A more quantitative definition is that axis about which the clockwise and counterclockwise torques (due to the body's own weight) balance exactly. The informal definition is easier to measure in a finished club, but the formal definition is the way you compute the CG of something you're designing.
Swingweight is a torque, too. It's the torque provided by the weight of the whole club, about an axis near the grip. As such, it measures how much pressure (counter-torque) you have to apply to the grip to swing (turn) the club about the axis. Note that, since the head is further from the grip than the shaft, a gram of head weight contributes more to swingweight (torque) than a gram of shaft weight.
Ironic, isn't it, that the only example that calls itself "torque" isn't really torque at all, but rather the twisting motion resulting from torque. (Scientists and engineers call that "torsion", not torque).

[BC MIST]

That is simply not true. That is why most golfers use steel shafts instead of graphite in their irons, to prevent the head from twisting when it comes in contact with the ground.

"Some golfers believe that the shaft's torque causes errant shots by twisting when the ball is hit off-centre on the face of the club head. The truth of the matter is that if the torque becomes the culprit for a truly visible off-line shot, it does the dirty work by allowing the head to twist and change the position of the face BEFORE the clubhead ever hits the ball. And, almost always this twisting will cause the face of the clubhead to turn open and thus cause a shot to PUSH to the slice side of the target."

'The Search for the Perfect Golf Club," Tom Wishon, Pages 107-108.

For those who have not read this book, Tom will dispell a lot of the generally believed "facts" about head and shaft technology.

[THUNDAH]

Torque is, in clubmaking and fitting, the resistance to twisting. Steel shafts have more resistance to twisting, hence more torque. I now know that the term is not correct, we should be talking about "more torsonial stiffness".
I have another problem with golf terms. Loft. Isn't loft a measure of elevation. The face of a 3 iron is more vertical than the face of a wedge. The way I see it, the 3 iron has more loft, it's face is more elevated. In contradiction, playing a club off your back foot results in a de-lofting of the club. Can someone set my "almost bilingual franco mind" straight.

[jvincent]

I have another problem with golf terms. Loft. Isn't loft a measure of elevation. The face of a 3 iron is more vertical than the face of a wedge. The way I see it, the 3 iron has more loft, it's face is more elevated. In contradiction, playing a club off your back foot results in a de-lofting of the club. Can someone set my "almost bilingual franco mind" straight.

You should see me try to explain why a 3 iron goes further than a 9 iron to my wife.

Golf club "Loft" is measured WRT to the vertical plane for golf clubs and should really be called "face angle". When you are hitting off your back foot you are reducing the face angle WRT to the vertical plane, hence you are "de-lofting" the club face because you are reducing the face angle.

The mixup comes from the fact that intuitively, we think that loft should be measured WRT to the ground. I.e., the "loft" of 3 iron WRT to the ground is 78* and the "loft" of a 9 iron is 46*. Now in that scenario, hitting off your back foot would mean your are increasing the angle WRT to the ground.

[Thunder]

You guys all need to just relaxand play golf!!!!!!

Stop trying to out do each other with your Cliff Claven brains and join up for 18 holes and see who wins.

Enjoy the weekend.

[Chieflongtee]

I just noticed your handle name was changed from Thunda to thunder. Yikes.

[Thunder]

Two completely different people. Kind of funny though.

[THUNDAH]

Thunder and THUNDAH not to be confused with Thunduhhh and Thund'oh